Need injectors but which ones?
01-28-2015, 08:04 AM
#41
Ahh the age-old problem with turbo setups. This is something I've always been quite concerned about and still continue to be concerned about. Brad92se and Chris (Maxpwr) can attest to my PCV paranoia 
Are you and Tony blow-through or pull-through?
Let me first point out that my setup is a blow-through setup, meaning my MAF is on the charged side (you can see I actually have a billet/sealed MAF housing). There are pros and cons of a blow-through setup I won't get into here and I believe most turbo 3rd gen guys, especially the VG guys, are mostly pull-through setups meaning the MAF is on the non-charged side, generally right on the intake side of the turbo itself.
I believe most of these pull-through setups ultimately route the PCV back into the intake side of the turbo. But again, my setup is blow-through so I won't speak for pull-through stuff.
I plan to re-assess my PCV setup with my new engine as I'm still not convinced I have it addressed adequately. Here is a picture of my setup and I'll try to explain the routing. I believe you can click the picture to make it full size:
I'm running a basically stock PCV setup with a sealed catch-can inline. Unless you're a total ricer, you're NOT in boost (instead you're still in vacuum) for a good 90% of the time driving your car. So I wanted a functioning PCV system for that 90% of the time. I removed the stock hose that connects the PCV valve to the back of the intake manifold and have the catch-can inline of the stock hose I removed.
Here's an arrow with my catch-can location:
Because the intake manifold obviously becomes pressurized under boost, I have a check valve inline on the catch-can hose to prevent the catch-can itself from becoming pressurized:
The stock setup has that hose that comes from the valve cover and routes back into the stock intake tube. What this does is shoots blow-by back into your intake for it to be burned up by the engine, and this is why when you remove your intake tube or intake manifold off you always find a bunch of oil in it
Now, because I can't/won't route blow-by back into my piping because I have a blow-through setup (i.e., this would coat my MAF and internal piping with oil), I merely have a valve cover breather:
What this means is that all blow-by gets sprayed out of this breather. I have A LOT of blow-by with my current engine which you can see if you've ever seen my dyno video on YouTube. The breather vent just sprays out huge oily smoke clouds. I *think* this is mostly due to the bad rings and not because my crankcase is being pressurized. I don't have problems with my dipstick being pushed out or anything like that so I believe the crankcase is not being pressurized (or, if so, not pressurized enough to cause any problem).
I may end up going with some "heavy duty" check valves to totally ensure the crank case isn't being pressurized. The problem with these "heavy duty" ones is they're expensive and have a spotty reputation. Currently my check valves are just stock 4th gen Maxima (seem identical to the 3rd gen) brake booster check valves I stole from the junkyard. I pressure tested them with my air compressor and they seemed to hold more PSI than the 7-10 my turbo setup would see. But you still never know.
What I plan to certainly do is remove this simple valve cover breather filter and replace it with another catch-can. This second catch can will be vented instead of sealed like my current one. This should alleviate the smoke/oil that comes from the valve cover vent.
I also have a vacuum manifold block inline on my brake booster hose:
You can see the vacuum manifold block is between the brake booster check valve and the intake manifold. I have several available ports here. One port runs to my blow-off valve and the other runs to my vac/boost gauge. This gives me my boost reading at the actual engine. Some people either only check their boost reading at the engine, or at the turbo itself.
I built a series of valves to allow me to see the vac/boost reading at the actual engine OR at the turbo itself. I like being able to have both readings to see just how much PSI is lost between the turbo and actually making it to the engine. I turn these handles and my boost gauge instantly switches from reading the engine vac/boost to reading at the actual turbo itself. Of course, there will be no vac reading at the turbo so I normally leave it reading at the engine:
Anyway, the absolute IDEAL thing to do would to have a boost-actuated vacuum pump kick on once boost comes on. Ford has electric vacuum pumps that came on things like the Lightning and the Cobras that some turbo people mod into their cars. These can be bought for about $100. Some GM's had electric vacuum pumps too. Unfortunately these have spotty reliability records and are said to not pull very much vacuum (only 3-5"). This kit is said to be able to pull 20" of vacuum but is a little pricey.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SSB-28146/
Real race cars have belt driven vacuum pumps that are thousands of dollars.
Some people remove their PCV's entirely and go with a venturi exhaust tap. This seems like mostly an old school hot rodder type deal. These are difficult to get "right" and Brad actually tried this without much success.
Alright, maybe I should get back to work now
Are you and Tony blow-through or pull-through?
Let me first point out that my setup is a blow-through setup, meaning my MAF is on the charged side (you can see I actually have a billet/sealed MAF housing). There are pros and cons of a blow-through setup I won't get into here and I believe most turbo 3rd gen guys, especially the VG guys, are mostly pull-through setups meaning the MAF is on the non-charged side, generally right on the intake side of the turbo itself.
I believe most of these pull-through setups ultimately route the PCV back into the intake side of the turbo. But again, my setup is blow-through so I won't speak for pull-through stuff.
I plan to re-assess my PCV setup with my new engine as I'm still not convinced I have it addressed adequately. Here is a picture of my setup and I'll try to explain the routing. I believe you can click the picture to make it full size:
I'm running a basically stock PCV setup with a sealed catch-can inline. Unless you're a total ricer, you're NOT in boost (instead you're still in vacuum) for a good 90% of the time driving your car. So I wanted a functioning PCV system for that 90% of the time. I removed the stock hose that connects the PCV valve to the back of the intake manifold and have the catch-can inline of the stock hose I removed.
Here's an arrow with my catch-can location:
Because the intake manifold obviously becomes pressurized under boost, I have a check valve inline on the catch-can hose to prevent the catch-can itself from becoming pressurized:
The stock setup has that hose that comes from the valve cover and routes back into the stock intake tube. What this does is shoots blow-by back into your intake for it to be burned up by the engine, and this is why when you remove your intake tube or intake manifold off you always find a bunch of oil in it
Now, because I can't/won't route blow-by back into my piping because I have a blow-through setup (i.e., this would coat my MAF and internal piping with oil), I merely have a valve cover breather:
What this means is that all blow-by gets sprayed out of this breather. I have A LOT of blow-by with my current engine which you can see if you've ever seen my dyno video on YouTube. The breather vent just sprays out huge oily smoke clouds. I *think* this is mostly due to the bad rings and not because my crankcase is being pressurized. I don't have problems with my dipstick being pushed out or anything like that so I believe the crankcase is not being pressurized (or, if so, not pressurized enough to cause any problem).
I may end up going with some "heavy duty" check valves to totally ensure the crank case isn't being pressurized. The problem with these "heavy duty" ones is they're expensive and have a spotty reputation. Currently my check valves are just stock 4th gen Maxima (seem identical to the 3rd gen) brake booster check valves I stole from the junkyard. I pressure tested them with my air compressor and they seemed to hold more PSI than the 7-10 my turbo setup would see. But you still never know.
What I plan to certainly do is remove this simple valve cover breather filter and replace it with another catch-can. This second catch can will be vented instead of sealed like my current one. This should alleviate the smoke/oil that comes from the valve cover vent.
I also have a vacuum manifold block inline on my brake booster hose:
You can see the vacuum manifold block is between the brake booster check valve and the intake manifold. I have several available ports here. One port runs to my blow-off valve and the other runs to my vac/boost gauge. This gives me my boost reading at the actual engine. Some people either only check their boost reading at the engine, or at the turbo itself.
I built a series of valves to allow me to see the vac/boost reading at the actual engine OR at the turbo itself. I like being able to have both readings to see just how much PSI is lost between the turbo and actually making it to the engine. I turn these handles and my boost gauge instantly switches from reading the engine vac/boost to reading at the actual turbo itself. Of course, there will be no vac reading at the turbo so I normally leave it reading at the engine:
Anyway, the absolute IDEAL thing to do would to have a boost-actuated vacuum pump kick on once boost comes on. Ford has electric vacuum pumps that came on things like the Lightning and the Cobras that some turbo people mod into their cars. These can be bought for about $100. Some GM's had electric vacuum pumps too. Unfortunately these have spotty reliability records and are said to not pull very much vacuum (only 3-5"). This kit is said to be able to pull 20" of vacuum but is a little pricey.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SSB-28146/
Real race cars have belt driven vacuum pumps that are thousands of dollars.
Some people remove their PCV's entirely and go with a venturi exhaust tap. This seems like mostly an old school hot rodder type deal. These are difficult to get "right" and Brad actually tried this without much success.
Alright, maybe I should get back to work now
Last edited by James92SE; 01-28-2015 at 08:10 AM.
01-29-2015, 01:13 PM
#43
After thinking about this some more here is what I plan to try out going forward
I'll be getting two heavy duty check valves (McMaster 7775K53) to replace the two OEM brake booster check valves I'm using. These things will hold up to 1,000 psi so I know they won't fail and pressurize my crankcase. Plus, they take just .3 psi to crack open meaning normal PCV operation should be unaffected
http://www.mcmaster.com/#7775k53/=voj8xt
I then also plan to use the Ford pump from the '03-'09 Mustang Cobra R (Ford F6ZE-9A486-DC). This pump actually came on some GM's too and is cheaper as the the GM unit (Delco Delco 215-425). This pump will do 4" at 12 volts and 8" at 18 volts. These pumps are actually smog/secondary air pumps but will obviously operate as vacuum pumps.
This pump will be activated by a boost-activated Hobbs switch. Here's an example Stewart Warner # 76051 that activates at 2 PSI. http://www.partdeal.com/stewart-warn...FZSJaQodbysAyA
This way the pump will only come on when the car is in boost (which isn't very often, meaning the pump won't need to be run continuously and be made unreliable). I figure if it "only" pulls 4" of vacuum that's still better than nothing.
The second catch-can I mentioned earlier will be in between the valve cover vent and the vacuum pump because obviously I don't want a bunch of oil going into the pump and ruining it.
I'll be getting two heavy duty check valves (McMaster 7775K53) to replace the two OEM brake booster check valves I'm using. These things will hold up to 1,000 psi so I know they won't fail and pressurize my crankcase. Plus, they take just .3 psi to crack open meaning normal PCV operation should be unaffected
http://www.mcmaster.com/#7775k53/=voj8xt
I then also plan to use the Ford pump from the '03-'09 Mustang Cobra R (Ford F6ZE-9A486-DC). This pump actually came on some GM's too and is cheaper as the the GM unit (Delco Delco 215-425). This pump will do 4" at 12 volts and 8" at 18 volts. These pumps are actually smog/secondary air pumps but will obviously operate as vacuum pumps.
This pump will be activated by a boost-activated Hobbs switch. Here's an example Stewart Warner # 76051 that activates at 2 PSI. http://www.partdeal.com/stewart-warn...FZSJaQodbysAyA
This way the pump will only come on when the car is in boost (which isn't very often, meaning the pump won't need to be run continuously and be made unreliable). I figure if it "only" pulls 4" of vacuum that's still better than nothing.
The second catch-can I mentioned earlier will be in between the valve cover vent and the vacuum pump because obviously I don't want a bunch of oil going into the pump and ruining it.
01-30-2015, 05:17 AM
#49
After thinking about this some more here is what I plan to try out going forward
I'll be getting two heavy duty check valves (McMaster 7775K53) to replace the two OEM brake booster check valves I'm using. These things will hold up to 1,000 psi so I know they won't fail and pressurize my crankcase. Plus, they take just .3 psi to crack open meaning normal PCV operation should be unaffected
http://www.mcmaster.com/#7775k53/=voj8xt
I'll be getting two heavy duty check valves (McMaster 7775K53) to replace the two OEM brake booster check valves I'm using. These things will hold up to 1,000 psi so I know they won't fail and pressurize my crankcase. Plus, they take just .3 psi to crack open meaning normal PCV operation should be unaffected
http://www.mcmaster.com/#7775k53/=voj8xt
01-30-2015, 10:19 AM
#51
01-30-2015, 01:21 PM
#52
02-02-2015, 12:13 PM
#53
Math. It's not that hard, you do some basic calculations for your engine and you can plot those numbers on a compressor map to see how the turbo will work with your setup.
What do you mean by "3000RPM boost", as in full boost?, boost onset? Partial boost? There is virtually limitless options in turbine and compressor wheels (along with turbine housing options) that will dictate how you want your engine to behave. There are plenty of sites that even help you calulate things like when your boost will begin, where your peak torque occurs, etc.
Trying to guess how a turbo will respond on your engine based on how it works with another engine is a recipe for disaster. A GT35r will work well with some 2.0-3.5L engines but if you plot the VGs parameters on a compressor map you will realize the turbo will be close to surge most of the time (poor power, hard on turbo, probably won't last as long as a properly matched turbo). Those 2.0L have 4 valves per cylinder and breathe better than the VG. I chose a GT3076R because it never gets close to surge and offers the best efficiency (ie less heat/more power) than any other 500hp capable turbo I compared. I have a VG though, and despite the similarities with the VE30DE, this same turbo maybe a poor pick. Since a poor pick can shorten the turbos life significantly, a little math is cheap insurance.
What do you mean by "3000RPM boost", as in full boost?, boost onset? Partial boost? There is virtually limitless options in turbine and compressor wheels (along with turbine housing options) that will dictate how you want your engine to behave. There are plenty of sites that even help you calulate things like when your boost will begin, where your peak torque occurs, etc.
Trying to guess how a turbo will respond on your engine based on how it works with another engine is a recipe for disaster. A GT35r will work well with some 2.0-3.5L engines but if you plot the VGs parameters on a compressor map you will realize the turbo will be close to surge most of the time (poor power, hard on turbo, probably won't last as long as a properly matched turbo). Those 2.0L have 4 valves per cylinder and breathe better than the VG. I chose a GT3076R because it never gets close to surge and offers the best efficiency (ie less heat/more power) than any other 500hp capable turbo I compared. I have a VG though, and despite the similarities with the VE30DE, this same turbo maybe a poor pick. Since a poor pick can shorten the turbos life significantly, a little math is cheap insurance.
02-03-2015, 04:05 AM
#54
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,048
Just pick it up.
https://i.imgur.com/yQTQ1rR.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/yQTQ1rR.jpg
02-03-2015, 07:44 AM
#55
Math. It's not that hard, you do some basic calculations for your engine and you can plot those numbers on a compressor map to see how the turbo will work with your setup.
What do you mean by "3000RPM boost", as in full boost?, boost onset? Partial boost? There is virtually limitless options in turbine and compressor wheels (along with turbine housing options) that will dictate how you want your engine to behave. There are plenty of sites that even help you calulate things like when your boost will begin, where your peak torque occurs, etc.
Trying to guess how a turbo will respond on your engine based on how it works with another engine is a recipe for disaster. A GT35r will work well with some 2.0-3.5L engines but if you plot the VGs parameters on a compressor map you will realize the turbo will be close to surge most of the time (poor power, hard on turbo, probably won't last as long as a properly matched turbo). Those 2.0L have 4 valves per cylinder and breathe better than the VG. I chose a GT3076R because it never gets close to surge and offers the best efficiency (ie less heat/more power) than any other 500hp capable turbo I compared. I have a VG though, and despite the similarities with the VE30DE, this same turbo maybe a poor pick. Since a poor pick can shorten the turbos life significantly, a little math is cheap insurance.
What do you mean by "3000RPM boost", as in full boost?, boost onset? Partial boost? There is virtually limitless options in turbine and compressor wheels (along with turbine housing options) that will dictate how you want your engine to behave. There are plenty of sites that even help you calulate things like when your boost will begin, where your peak torque occurs, etc.
Trying to guess how a turbo will respond on your engine based on how it works with another engine is a recipe for disaster. A GT35r will work well with some 2.0-3.5L engines but if you plot the VGs parameters on a compressor map you will realize the turbo will be close to surge most of the time (poor power, hard on turbo, probably won't last as long as a properly matched turbo). Those 2.0L have 4 valves per cylinder and breathe better than the VG. I chose a GT3076R because it never gets close to surge and offers the best efficiency (ie less heat/more power) than any other 500hp capable turbo I compared. I have a VG though, and despite the similarities with the VE30DE, this same turbo maybe a poor pick. Since a poor pick can shorten the turbos life significantly, a little math is cheap insurance.
02-03-2015, 07:47 AM
#56
Just pick it up.
https://i.imgur.com/yQTQ1rR.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/yQTQ1rR.jpg
good luck on your build.
what size is the exhaust housing? or should i not even ask?
02-04-2015, 08:51 PM
#58
really? you want to call names now? so i guess i should go and ban you too? who needs the help? me or you? i built my turbo set up...it took a long time and i took the time to read books and took the time to study things. you think i went and asked a question and expected everyone to give me answers? give me a break man.
you ask questions. the forum gave you sound advice and i personally told you to do a little math to figure out what your goals are and what you think your engine will flow...even just throw some numbers in and see what you have. i'm not the only one to tell you to do some math. you then disregard all and basically any advice the forum provided and go out and pick up this massive turbo. what's the point in asking the forum when you don't care to listen to the feedback?
so i wish you good luck on your build...you're going to need all the luck in the world.
you ask questions. the forum gave you sound advice and i personally told you to do a little math to figure out what your goals are and what you think your engine will flow...even just throw some numbers in and see what you have. i'm not the only one to tell you to do some math. you then disregard all and basically any advice the forum provided and go out and pick up this massive turbo. what's the point in asking the forum when you don't care to listen to the feedback?
so i wish you good luck on your build...you're going to need all the luck in the world.
02-05-2015, 04:27 AM
#59
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,048
Ill be praying for you bro.
So much angrier you have. If you go back to some of your posts is just lots of angrier towards people looking for help. If im wrong then so be it. Not everyone is prefect like you danny. So ban me if you want is up too you but I'll still get info from here no matter what you do.
As a Christian men I'll be praying you find peace. God bless bro
So much angrier you have. If you go back to some of your posts is just lots of angrier towards people looking for help. If im wrong then so be it. Not everyone is prefect like you danny. So ban me if you want is up too you but I'll still get info from here no matter what you do.
As a Christian men I'll be praying you find peace. God bless bro
Last edited by TonyJr; 02-05-2015 at 04:35 AM.
02-05-2015, 06:58 AM
#60
Ill be praying for you bro.
So much angrier you have. If you go back to some of your posts is just lots of angrier towards people looking for help. If im wrong then so be it. Not everyone is prefect like you danny. So ban me if you want is up too you but I'll still get info from here no matter what you do.
As a Christian men I'll be praying you find peace. God bless bro
So much angrier you have. If you go back to some of your posts is just lots of angrier towards people looking for help. If im wrong then so be it. Not everyone is prefect like you danny. So ban me if you want is up too you but I'll still get info from here no matter what you do.
As a Christian men I'll be praying you find peace. God bless bro
but then again you calling names...are you trying to stir the pot or something? maybe you're angry or frustrated that we won't give you every detail you need? your words don't phase me...but i will withhold the rules of the forum as an admin.
what is angrier?
people who come on the forum and actual make SOME kind of effort to do a LITTLE research i'm happy to help. this shows that they tried and i appreciate that they made the effort.
people who come on the forum and feel that we're some automated google system and supposed to provide everything you ask for..that i have no time for.
i find peace every day...i think you're taking this online discussion a little too serious. maybe you should drop your car off to a local shop and have them install a turbo for you. it's a lot easier that way.
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jmlee44
4th Generation Maxima (1995-1999)
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