My recent experience with Ebay injectors and a professional mechanics misdiagnosis
10-16-2014, 04:45 AM
#1
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My recent experience with Ebay injectors and a professional mechanics misdiagnosis
Grab some 
and enjoy the story.
Recently, I fixed a friend's 99 Maxima with only 160,000 miles and thought I share my story.
To begin with, the car had severe white smoke pouring out the exhaust, small traces of raw fuel occasionally dripped from the exhaust, and it had a rough idle and stumbled upon acceleration.
No CEL, but I checked the codes and it came back with 0301. Awesome, I thought, it's a cylinder 1 misfire. I was happy I didn't get the vague 0300 code.
So I do my own power balance test and with the coilpack #1 unplugged, there's no change in how the engine sounds or idles. The other 5 coilpacks did show a change in how the engine sounds. So I clear the code and swap cylinder #1 coilpack with cylinder #3 to see if I can get the code to move. No luck and I couldn't get the code to come back either. Checked the #1 sparkplug and it was slightly black, indicating a rich condition. Cylinder #3 spark plug looked normal. I pulled cylinder #2 fuel injector for the heck of it, and the pintle cap had a big crack in it and one of the four teeth was missing, just as I suspected. It was extremely brittle and dry. At this point my common sense told me it was the #1 injector that was bad.
I didn't really have the time to fix the car so she had the car towed to a AAA approved shop that I've used a few times over the years when I didn't have the time myself. Their rates have always been very reasonable and 2 months prior, they fixed her AC problem for a flat $100. I figured best case scenario they'd charge her for 2 hours (3 hours tops) plus one injector. At $100/hr I figured $200 to $300 in labor plus another $100 for the injector. For reference, I called my local parts supplier and they wanted $55 for a refurbished injector and Autozone wanted $85 for an injector.
Well, the next day the shop calls and tells her the #1 coilpack is bad. They wanted $118 diagnostic fee, $140 for a genuine Nissan coilpack, and get this, $75 to change the coilpack! She asks me what I think and to call the shop on her behalf. She's pissed when I tell her a coilpack can be changed in 2 minutes. I did this because I wanted to hear what the tech had to say because I wasn't convinced it was the coilpack. Now here's why. Remember when I switched coilpacks? Well, I never switched them back so I seriously doubted the technicians assessment.
So I call the tech and we talk about the car. He informs me that he used his $2000 diagnostic tool and did a power balance test and had his tool shut down each coil pack and injector, and determined that the #1 coilpack was bad. I explain to him how I switched coilpacks and don't think it's the coilpack, but the injector. He just repeats himself and talks about his confidence in his tool and assessment. I shrug it off since I'm no master tech, and authorize him to do the work (but not charge the outrageous $75 labor fee for coilpack installation).
4 hours later he calls my friend and says, "We installed the new coilpack and determined that you're going to need one new injector as well for cylinder #1 to fix the misfire". Again, my friend asks me to call the shop and get involved. I call and we talk it over. I said, "now that you've determined it's the injector like I initially thought, you're not going to charge my friend for the coilpack are you?" At this point I'm speaking with the manager and he's in agreement with me, but also says he agrees with his tech at the same time. He said, "it's not common, but sometimes both the coilpack and the injector fail at the same time". I could see through the BS as they wanted to cover thier *** as this point. They come back with an estimate of $750 in additional labor just to change the one injector and an additional $180 for a genuine Nissan injector! She also asked previously about changing out the KS since the KS code has been on the last 4 years of ownership. I know the KS is bad because I've tried to clear the KS code many times over the last 4 years and the code comes back instantly. Considering if the manifold is off for the fuel injector, they're about 70% already done. Just remove the fuel rail and the LIM and you're at the KS in about 20 more minutes. They came back with a quote close to $2000 in parts and labor to change one injector and the KS. I nearly fell over at this point.
So, with what transpired, I lost all confidence in the shop's ability, plus their prices were insane this time around! Even the markup on the parts was insane! At this point I suggested that my friend have the car towed to my house, I'd make the time and I'd fix it at a fraction of the cost. She agrees, and pays the shop $118 for diagnostic fees. Luckily she has AAA plus so both tows were free.
The car arrives at my house and the battery is dead. Morons killed the battery somehow. I check the codes again for the heck of it and good 'ol 0301 is back. I order some injectors off of Ebay that claim to be refurbished, cleaned, and tested. 3 days later they arrive.
I tell my friend that I'd like to install all 6 injectors from Ebay, as I'm sure it's just a matter of time before the other ones fail. Not to mention, that when I had all six injectors out, all 6 had cracked and broken pintle caps. 2 of the pintle caps disintegrated and crumbled in my hand when I touched them. While I was in there, I installed a genuine Nissan knock sensor that I got off of Ebay for $32. Old knock sensor has a huge crack in it.
So I put the Max all back together and do some other odds and ends. Cleaned TB and IACV as they were filthy, same for the UIM and LIM. PCV valve was partially clogged, so that got replaced as well. Oh, and new NGK spark plugs since it was 50k since they were changed.
I fire the Max up and white smoke is still pouring out the exhaust. I figure it will burn off after a few minutes as it's residual, but it's not stopping. Weird. It's idling better, but still rough. Going for a drive, it's better, but still not normal. White smoke is pouring out the exhaust and my neighbor is looking at me like I'm crazy. Later he asks me if I just seafoamed the engine...LOL
Check the codes and there's good news and bad news. After 4 years, the KS code is finally gone! But now I'm getting 0302 and 1320! What the heck! The misfire moved from cylinder #1 to cylinder #2. I was pissed at this point and it was late, so the next day troubleshooting would commence.
The next day I fire her up, and the white smoke had drastically decreased and is barely noticeable. Again, I swap coilpacks to see if I can get the code to move. No luck. I do my own power balance test and only #2 shows no change. My instincts told me it was the injector, but how could that be, it's new! So I dismiss it and look up 1320 and 0302 in the FSM and start troubleshooting, testing this, testing that etc. I even go as far as taking the MAF, coilpacks, and condenser from my own Maxima and putting them in her car just to be 1000% sure of my testing assessments. Still have the misfire in cylinder #2. So, I circle back around to my first instinct and swap out the new Ebay injector in cylinder #2. Thank goodness this one is easily accessible! So I put in one of her old injectors that I knew to be good with a new pintle cap, and guess what, the misfire went away!
I've since contacted the Ebay seller of the injectors and explained my story. He offered to replace it free of charge since it's still under his "5 year warranty".
In conclusion, the professional mechanic and his $2000 diagnostic tool failed. IMO, he relied solely on his tool and didn't use common sense and confirm his assessment by swapping coilpacks etc to see if his original assessment held true. I also learned to trust my instincts more often! Had I just swapped out the Ebay injector #2 right away, I would have saved myself several hours of troubleshooting.
Happy to report it's now been almost 2 weeks and my friends 99 Maxima is running great.
and enjoy the story.Recently, I fixed a friend's 99 Maxima with only 160,000 miles and thought I share my story.
To begin with, the car had severe white smoke pouring out the exhaust, small traces of raw fuel occasionally dripped from the exhaust, and it had a rough idle and stumbled upon acceleration.
No CEL, but I checked the codes and it came back with 0301. Awesome, I thought, it's a cylinder 1 misfire. I was happy I didn't get the vague 0300 code.
So I do my own power balance test and with the coilpack #1 unplugged, there's no change in how the engine sounds or idles. The other 5 coilpacks did show a change in how the engine sounds. So I clear the code and swap cylinder #1 coilpack with cylinder #3 to see if I can get the code to move. No luck and I couldn't get the code to come back either. Checked the #1 sparkplug and it was slightly black, indicating a rich condition. Cylinder #3 spark plug looked normal. I pulled cylinder #2 fuel injector for the heck of it, and the pintle cap had a big crack in it and one of the four teeth was missing, just as I suspected. It was extremely brittle and dry. At this point my common sense told me it was the #1 injector that was bad.
I didn't really have the time to fix the car so she had the car towed to a AAA approved shop that I've used a few times over the years when I didn't have the time myself. Their rates have always been very reasonable and 2 months prior, they fixed her AC problem for a flat $100. I figured best case scenario they'd charge her for 2 hours (3 hours tops) plus one injector. At $100/hr I figured $200 to $300 in labor plus another $100 for the injector. For reference, I called my local parts supplier and they wanted $55 for a refurbished injector and Autozone wanted $85 for an injector.
Well, the next day the shop calls and tells her the #1 coilpack is bad. They wanted $118 diagnostic fee, $140 for a genuine Nissan coilpack, and get this, $75 to change the coilpack! She asks me what I think and to call the shop on her behalf. She's pissed when I tell her a coilpack can be changed in 2 minutes. I did this because I wanted to hear what the tech had to say because I wasn't convinced it was the coilpack. Now here's why. Remember when I switched coilpacks? Well, I never switched them back so I seriously doubted the technicians assessment.
So I call the tech and we talk about the car. He informs me that he used his $2000 diagnostic tool and did a power balance test and had his tool shut down each coil pack and injector, and determined that the #1 coilpack was bad. I explain to him how I switched coilpacks and don't think it's the coilpack, but the injector. He just repeats himself and talks about his confidence in his tool and assessment. I shrug it off since I'm no master tech, and authorize him to do the work (but not charge the outrageous $75 labor fee for coilpack installation).
4 hours later he calls my friend and says, "We installed the new coilpack and determined that you're going to need one new injector as well for cylinder #1 to fix the misfire". Again, my friend asks me to call the shop and get involved. I call and we talk it over. I said, "now that you've determined it's the injector like I initially thought, you're not going to charge my friend for the coilpack are you?" At this point I'm speaking with the manager and he's in agreement with me, but also says he agrees with his tech at the same time. He said, "it's not common, but sometimes both the coilpack and the injector fail at the same time". I could see through the BS as they wanted to cover thier *** as this point. They come back with an estimate of $750 in additional labor just to change the one injector and an additional $180 for a genuine Nissan injector! She also asked previously about changing out the KS since the KS code has been on the last 4 years of ownership. I know the KS is bad because I've tried to clear the KS code many times over the last 4 years and the code comes back instantly. Considering if the manifold is off for the fuel injector, they're about 70% already done. Just remove the fuel rail and the LIM and you're at the KS in about 20 more minutes. They came back with a quote close to $2000 in parts and labor to change one injector and the KS. I nearly fell over at this point.
So, with what transpired, I lost all confidence in the shop's ability, plus their prices were insane this time around! Even the markup on the parts was insane! At this point I suggested that my friend have the car towed to my house, I'd make the time and I'd fix it at a fraction of the cost. She agrees, and pays the shop $118 for diagnostic fees. Luckily she has AAA plus so both tows were free.
The car arrives at my house and the battery is dead. Morons killed the battery somehow. I check the codes again for the heck of it and good 'ol 0301 is back. I order some injectors off of Ebay that claim to be refurbished, cleaned, and tested. 3 days later they arrive.
I tell my friend that I'd like to install all 6 injectors from Ebay, as I'm sure it's just a matter of time before the other ones fail. Not to mention, that when I had all six injectors out, all 6 had cracked and broken pintle caps. 2 of the pintle caps disintegrated and crumbled in my hand when I touched them. While I was in there, I installed a genuine Nissan knock sensor that I got off of Ebay for $32. Old knock sensor has a huge crack in it.
So I put the Max all back together and do some other odds and ends. Cleaned TB and IACV as they were filthy, same for the UIM and LIM. PCV valve was partially clogged, so that got replaced as well. Oh, and new NGK spark plugs since it was 50k since they were changed.
I fire the Max up and white smoke is still pouring out the exhaust. I figure it will burn off after a few minutes as it's residual, but it's not stopping. Weird. It's idling better, but still rough. Going for a drive, it's better, but still not normal. White smoke is pouring out the exhaust and my neighbor is looking at me like I'm crazy. Later he asks me if I just seafoamed the engine...LOL
Check the codes and there's good news and bad news. After 4 years, the KS code is finally gone! But now I'm getting 0302 and 1320! What the heck! The misfire moved from cylinder #1 to cylinder #2. I was pissed at this point and it was late, so the next day troubleshooting would commence.
The next day I fire her up, and the white smoke had drastically decreased and is barely noticeable. Again, I swap coilpacks to see if I can get the code to move. No luck. I do my own power balance test and only #2 shows no change. My instincts told me it was the injector, but how could that be, it's new! So I dismiss it and look up 1320 and 0302 in the FSM and start troubleshooting, testing this, testing that etc. I even go as far as taking the MAF, coilpacks, and condenser from my own Maxima and putting them in her car just to be 1000% sure of my testing assessments. Still have the misfire in cylinder #2. So, I circle back around to my first instinct and swap out the new Ebay injector in cylinder #2. Thank goodness this one is easily accessible! So I put in one of her old injectors that I knew to be good with a new pintle cap, and guess what, the misfire went away!
I've since contacted the Ebay seller of the injectors and explained my story. He offered to replace it free of charge since it's still under his "5 year warranty".
In conclusion, the professional mechanic and his $2000 diagnostic tool failed. IMO, he relied solely on his tool and didn't use common sense and confirm his assessment by swapping coilpacks etc to see if his original assessment held true. I also learned to trust my instincts more often! Had I just swapped out the Ebay injector #2 right away, I would have saved myself several hours of troubleshooting.
Happy to report it's now been almost 2 weeks and my friends 99 Maxima is running great.
10-16-2014, 05:12 AM
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central AR
Posts: 3,041
Here's glad to see you got to the "root cause" of the flooding issues before the cats were destroyed.
At least the shop didn't declare the entire engine to be bad and request $8,400 for a new one like I experienced last year a the dealer. :-)
I would be tempted to refurbish the old injectors with using the $34 kit then keep them on hand for when you need some with new screens and pintle caps.
At least the shop didn't declare the entire engine to be bad and request $8,400 for a new one like I experienced last year a the dealer. :-)
I would be tempted to refurbish the old injectors with using the $34 kit then keep them on hand for when you need some with new screens and pintle caps.
10-16-2014, 06:50 AM
#4
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Michigan
Posts: 139
10-16-2014, 12:52 PM
#8
i see this kind of thing more and more. Tech's don't know how to troubleshoot. They hook up the expensive scan tool and rely on it to do all the work. It's sad how few people know diagnostics.
glad you fixed it for her.
glad you fixed it for her.
10-16-2014, 01:47 PM
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 2,979
Great story..... I'm in the middle of a project myself. I have the egr insufficient flow issue.
I had previously cleaned out the tube that looks like a door handle. Still no joy. I took the car to a "professional". He told me that I needed a solenoid, a bolt, and hoses. Should all be Nissan OEM $$$$$. He also told me that the intake manifold needed to be removed because "there are additional passages" in there that needed to be cleaned. Sounded expensive. So I did my own work. All that work to discover that the intake manifold has NO additional passages. While I am in there anyway I removed the injectors and sent them to be serviced at RX Injector in Houston. Total bill 116 dollars. I hope they did a good job. I'm putting it all back together. .
I saw an ad on Craigslist a while back. It was a 98 GLE with 90k miles on it beautiful car for sale for 1000 bucks. It had a fuel line leak under the hood. Probably on the fuel rail. I imagine he received an estimate from a "professional" for over a grand in labor. I did not have 1000 bucks at the time. Knowing what I know now, I would have bought it in a heartbeat.
I had previously cleaned out the tube that looks like a door handle. Still no joy. I took the car to a "professional". He told me that I needed a solenoid, a bolt, and hoses. Should all be Nissan OEM $$$$$. He also told me that the intake manifold needed to be removed because "there are additional passages" in there that needed to be cleaned. Sounded expensive. So I did my own work. All that work to discover that the intake manifold has NO additional passages. While I am in there anyway I removed the injectors and sent them to be serviced at RX Injector in Houston. Total bill 116 dollars. I hope they did a good job. I'm putting it all back together. .
I saw an ad on Craigslist a while back. It was a 98 GLE with 90k miles on it beautiful car for sale for 1000 bucks. It had a fuel line leak under the hood. Probably on the fuel rail. I imagine he received an estimate from a "professional" for over a grand in labor. I did not have 1000 bucks at the time. Knowing what I know now, I would have bought it in a heartbeat.
10-16-2014, 03:33 PM
#10
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central AR
Posts: 3,041
One thing I've noticed about my few trips to the dealer or the few occasions when I've outsourced a job is the experience level of the person working on my Nissan product.
On one occasion, the dealer mechanic was new and my car was his first 4th gen experience. I understand he was previously employed at the Dodge, Chrysler, Jeep dealer. Others worked on Nissans but rarely if ever touched a 4th gen.
However, I've noticed many of the mechanics at the Infiniti dealership own 1st generation Q45s that were based on the Nissan President. I think they pick them up cheap as trade ins and make them daily drivers. A mechanic at the local Infiniti dealer recently told me four of the shop mechanics own 1st gen Q45s. The ones I've talked to seemed to have a lot of first hand knowledge about some of our 4th gen quirks from being part of service campaigns when the cars were new. Of course someone in this area will need to pay at least $135 per hour if you want any of those guys to touch a 4th gen.
So when we compare the lack of professional experience on 4th gens in general with over 100 years of collective 4th gen experience from the members of this club, the odds for success out in the wild and untrained world lands us somewhere between slim to none.
On one occasion, the dealer mechanic was new and my car was his first 4th gen experience. I understand he was previously employed at the Dodge, Chrysler, Jeep dealer. Others worked on Nissans but rarely if ever touched a 4th gen.
However, I've noticed many of the mechanics at the Infiniti dealership own 1st generation Q45s that were based on the Nissan President. I think they pick them up cheap as trade ins and make them daily drivers. A mechanic at the local Infiniti dealer recently told me four of the shop mechanics own 1st gen Q45s. The ones I've talked to seemed to have a lot of first hand knowledge about some of our 4th gen quirks from being part of service campaigns when the cars were new. Of course someone in this area will need to pay at least $135 per hour if you want any of those guys to touch a 4th gen.
So when we compare the lack of professional experience on 4th gens in general with over 100 years of collective 4th gen experience from the members of this club, the odds for success out in the wild and untrained world lands us somewhere between slim to none.
10-16-2014, 04:04 PM
#11
Great you saved your friend from getting robbed!
When my clogged injector started causing a lean mixture I disassembled all 6 of them. After letting them sit in B12 acid for 2 days I installed new pintle caps, side mesh screens, and O-rings. They've operated fine for the last 28,000 miles.
When my clogged injector started causing a lean mixture I disassembled all 6 of them. After letting them sit in B12 acid for 2 days I installed new pintle caps, side mesh screens, and O-rings. They've operated fine for the last 28,000 miles.
Last edited by jholley; 10-19-2014 at 07:01 PM.
10-19-2014, 12:59 AM
#13
Holy crap, that shop wanted nearly $2000 to replace those things? No wonder more and more people are fixing their cars at home.
But yeah same story for me as well, a shop that I trust and know does good work wants roughly $500 dollars to replace an axle. Which I did pay the first time. When the other side went out, I decided to see how much cheaper it would be if I went DIY, so I got the most expensive axle I could find from the auto store, installed it myself in a couple hours. And the total came out to be less than half of what I paid the shop, plus the repair was not that difficult and I got a lifetime warranty. So win-win! I got some extra cash for the strip club, learned how to fix a new thing on my car, got a new axle and free replacements!
But yeah same story for me as well, a shop that I trust and know does good work wants roughly $500 dollars to replace an axle. Which I did pay the first time. When the other side went out, I decided to see how much cheaper it would be if I went DIY, so I got the most expensive axle I could find from the auto store, installed it myself in a couple hours. And the total came out to be less than half of what I paid the shop, plus the repair was not that difficult and I got a lifetime warranty. So win-win! I got some extra cash for the strip club, learned how to fix a new thing on my car, got a new axle and free replacements!
10-21-2014, 05:36 AM
#15
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Here's glad to see you got to the "root cause" of the flooding issues before the cats were destroyed.
At least the shop didn't declare the entire engine to be bad and request $8,400 for a new one like I experienced last year a the dealer. :-)
I would be tempted to refurbish the old injectors with using the $34 kit then keep them on hand for when you need some with new screens and pintle caps.
At least the shop didn't declare the entire engine to be bad and request $8,400 for a new one like I experienced last year a the dealer. :-)
I would be tempted to refurbish the old injectors with using the $34 kit then keep them on hand for when you need some with new screens and pintle caps.
Hearing stories from friends, it seems the approach by mechanics (and especially dealers) nowadays is simply throw $$ at the car until something sticks and the problem will eventually get solved. If the first part didn't fix the problem, they come back with, "Well, you needed that part any way"
Or, they seem to automatically assume the worst, and start saying stuff like "you need a whole new engine". As far as refurbishing the injectors, that's exactly what I plan to do. It kind of stinks that I can get refurbished injectors for the same price as me sending in my injectors to get serviced, but I feel better sending them off to a reputable company that's going to do the job right and send me back a flow chart. Case in point, one of my so called Ebay refurbished injectors turned out to be a dud. I'm hesitant to ever do that again.
I saw an ad on Craigslist a while back. It was a 98 GLE with 90k miles on it beautiful car for sale for 1000 bucks. It had a fuel line leak under the hood. Probably on the fuel rail. I imagine he received an estimate from a "professional" for over a grand in labor. I did not have 1000 bucks at the time. Knowing what I know now, I would have bought it in a heartbeat.
10-21-2014, 06:00 AM
#16
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Now imagine the new cars, with the CAN systems etc, things are getting more and more sophisticated and harder to troubleshoot.
But yeah same story for me as well, a shop that I trust and know does good work wants roughly $500 dollars to replace an axle. Which I did pay the first time. When the other side went out, I decided to see how much cheaper it would be if I went DIY, so I got the most expensive axle I could find from the auto store, installed it myself in a couple hours. And the total came out to be less than half of what I paid the shop, plus the repair was not that difficult and I got a lifetime warranty. So win-win! I got some extra cash for the strip club, learned how to fix a new thing on my car, got a new axle and free replacements!
Yeah, my friend and I have lost all confidence in this shop.
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