97 no start, what am I missing?
10-04-2016, 08:37 AM
#1
97 no start, what am I missing?
This car has always had an occasional long crank issue. That being said, it was fine yesterday.
Today, she won't start. Cranks forever but won't start. Pulled intake apart to discover the starter wires are smoking and the protective rubber coat around them is corroded and cracked. Pulled starter and brought it back to Napa to swap for another. Popped new starter in. Cleaned the positive lead and the ground that was bolted into the 14mm top bolt. Hooked everything else back up, and still no start.
Battery is brand new. All 3 grounds are clean. No check engine light. What gives?
Today, she won't start. Cranks forever but won't start. Pulled intake apart to discover the starter wires are smoking and the protective rubber coat around them is corroded and cracked. Pulled starter and brought it back to Napa to swap for another. Popped new starter in. Cleaned the positive lead and the ground that was bolted into the 14mm top bolt. Hooked everything else back up, and still no start.
Battery is brand new. All 3 grounds are clean. No check engine light. What gives?
10-04-2016, 11:38 AM
#3
Also want to add that when cranking, it's not a continuous crank. It's a craaaaaaaaank, stutter, craaaaank.
10-04-2016, 09:46 PM
#4
The cranking you describe would not be the crankshaft sensor. That sounds more like a starter problem. I think 2 starters doing the same thing is a bit unlikely but on the other hand, rebuilt starters tend to be junk.
Could the starter gear be binding on the flywheel gear? For this to happen, the starter would have to be not sitting flush in the opening it mounts in and therefore on an angle.
The slow down in the cranking could be a battery problem. Do you have a voltmeter? Hook it up and watch the voltage while you are cranking. A good, fully charged battery will measure about 12.5 volts just sitting there. The voltage will drop to around 11 volts while cranking and be steady while the engine is cranking. If the voltage jumps around, the battery is sick.
Could the starter gear be binding on the flywheel gear? For this to happen, the starter would have to be not sitting flush in the opening it mounts in and therefore on an angle.
The slow down in the cranking could be a battery problem. Do you have a voltmeter? Hook it up and watch the voltage while you are cranking. A good, fully charged battery will measure about 12.5 volts just sitting there. The voltage will drop to around 11 volts while cranking and be steady while the engine is cranking. If the voltage jumps around, the battery is sick.
10-05-2016, 04:36 AM
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central AR
Posts: 3,041
If it turns out that the starter and battery are ok and you find a wet spark plug and suspect the engine is getting too much fuel. Here's a story that happened to me.
A few years ago I experienced a "hard to start" issue that came on suddenly. I paid the dealer to diagnose and they came back with "You need a new engine". Long story short, I replaced the engine with one from a wrecked car with roughly 83,000 miles. I still had the same problem after the engine swap. I paid the dealer over $700 in diagnostic fees that resulted in nothing.
I had to pay to have the car towed from the dealer so I could fix it in my driveway. I suspected a chronic flooding problem. I wanted to rule out clogged cats. So I removed the front O2 sensors so the engine could breathe. I kept the sensors connected so it wouldn't throw a code. O2 sensors do get hot so don't touch them if you try this at home. After removing the O2 sensors from the exhaust manifold, it started up and I could drive it again. I figured too much fuel from leaking injectors was behind the flooding problem that resulted in the cooked/clogged cats.
After I refurbished the injectors and replaced the cooked cats with a WarpSpeed Y-pipe, it runs like a screaming banshee.
A few years ago I experienced a "hard to start" issue that came on suddenly. I paid the dealer to diagnose and they came back with "You need a new engine". Long story short, I replaced the engine with one from a wrecked car with roughly 83,000 miles. I still had the same problem after the engine swap. I paid the dealer over $700 in diagnostic fees that resulted in nothing.
I had to pay to have the car towed from the dealer so I could fix it in my driveway. I suspected a chronic flooding problem. I wanted to rule out clogged cats. So I removed the front O2 sensors so the engine could breathe. I kept the sensors connected so it wouldn't throw a code. O2 sensors do get hot so don't touch them if you try this at home. After removing the O2 sensors from the exhaust manifold, it started up and I could drive it again. I figured too much fuel from leaking injectors was behind the flooding problem that resulted in the cooked/clogged cats.
After I refurbished the injectors and replaced the cooked cats with a WarpSpeed Y-pipe, it runs like a screaming banshee.
Last edited by CS_AR; 10-05-2016 at 04:42 AM.
10-05-2016, 10:54 AM
#6
If it turns out that the starter and battery are ok and you find a wet spark plug and suspect the engine is getting too much fuel. Here's a story that happened to me.
A few years ago I experienced a "hard to start" issue that came on suddenly. I paid the dealer to diagnose and they came back with "You need a new engine". Long story short, I replaced the engine with one from a wrecked car with roughly 83,000 miles. I still had the same problem after the engine swap. I paid the dealer over $700 in diagnostic fees that resulted in nothing.
I had to pay to have the car towed from the dealer so I could fix it in my driveway. I suspected a chronic flooding problem. I wanted to rule out clogged cats. So I removed the front O2 sensors so the engine could breathe. I kept the sensors connected so it wouldn't throw a code. O2 sensors do get hot so don't touch them if you try this at home. After removing the O2 sensors from the exhaust manifold, it started up and I could drive it again. I figured too much fuel from leaking injectors was behind the flooding problem that resulted in the cooked/clogged cats.
After I refurbished the injectors and replaced the cooked cats with a WarpSpeed Y-pipe, it runs like a screaming banshee.
A few years ago I experienced a "hard to start" issue that came on suddenly. I paid the dealer to diagnose and they came back with "You need a new engine". Long story short, I replaced the engine with one from a wrecked car with roughly 83,000 miles. I still had the same problem after the engine swap. I paid the dealer over $700 in diagnostic fees that resulted in nothing.
I had to pay to have the car towed from the dealer so I could fix it in my driveway. I suspected a chronic flooding problem. I wanted to rule out clogged cats. So I removed the front O2 sensors so the engine could breathe. I kept the sensors connected so it wouldn't throw a code. O2 sensors do get hot so don't touch them if you try this at home. After removing the O2 sensors from the exhaust manifold, it started up and I could drive it again. I figured too much fuel from leaking injectors was behind the flooding problem that resulted in the cooked/clogged cats.
After I refurbished the injectors and replaced the cooked cats with a WarpSpeed Y-pipe, it runs like a screaming banshee.
I went through the common tasks: replaced starter, replaced battery (just because I can, as a Napa employee), cleaned ckps (POS) really good, cleaned the two grounds between batter and bellhousing, battery and starter ground, cleaned both injector rail grounds, replaced the front valve cover gasket because it's been oozing crud for a while, and replaced the front 3 plugs and plug seals.
Now, when I pulled those plugs, the front right wasn't even tightened down whatsoever, and it was a completely shot Bosch (I never use Bosch so someone else must have put this in). The middle front was a blacked out NGK, and the left front was a normal looking NGK.
When I replaced the plugs around 30k ago, the front 3 were fine. But the back 3, a different story. Back left and middle were soaked and black, while the back right was just burnt looking.
Not sure if I've already mentioned this, but while cranking the last week or so, all you can smell is gas and there's white smoke coming from my exhaust. When the car finally starts, a HUGE cloud of white smoke comes out, and then fizzles away. The car runs perfectly after that. And, I'm getting 28mpg, which is low compared to the 34mpg I normally get.
10-05-2016, 10:56 AM
#7
I don't think my cats are clogged yet, but I'm not 100% sure. I'll have to find out after I do the rear valve cover gasket, plug seals, plugs and injectors. I'm planning to start that job when I get out of work today. I've heard removing the uim is a pain.
10-05-2016, 07:35 PM
#9
Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 268
I don't think my cats are clogged yet, but I'm not 100% sure. I'll have to find out after I do the rear valve cover gasket, plug seals, plugs and injectors. I'm planning to start that job when I get out of work today. I've heard removing the uim is a pain.
Also, isn't there an egr valve gasket or something similar that I'll need to replace?
Also, isn't there an egr valve gasket or something similar that I'll need to replace?
As for it being a pain to remove, I've done it on two Maximas so far and don't remember it being too troublesome, though it has been a while since the last time.
10-05-2016, 10:13 PM
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 303
Not sure if I've already mentioned this, but while cranking the last week or so, all you can smell is gas and there's white smoke coming from my exhaust. When the car finally starts, a HUGE cloud of white smoke comes out, and then fizzles away. The car runs perfectly after that. And, I'm getting 28mpg, which is low compared to the 34mpg I normally get.
10-06-2016, 03:23 AM
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central AR
Posts: 3,041
Here are some pictures of the EGR tube, EGR hose by pass, and related gaskets.
I will share some tricks on the pictures.
After two UIM replacements, I learned that I needed the UIM tube gasket to stick to the UIM to make it easy to mate the tube to the UIM. I pre-mount the EGR tube gasket to the UIM with two very small drops of super glue. I already have it aligned over the bolt holes before I drop in the UIM.
Leave the two bottom bolts loose so you can swing the tube into the UIM once it has been mounted.
Here's a picture of the tube being tightened.
I plug off the UIM coolant line with a vacuum cap and bypass routing coolant through the UIM at the EGR tube mount location.
I use a short open end wrench to go under the exhaust tube to tighten rear nut.
Here's another UIM mounting trick below. I cut grooves in the mounting brackets so I can easily drop the UIM into place after maintenance. Some people just remove the brackets and run without them. I haven't tried that yet.
Since I'm usually working alone, I use the modified brackets to help guide the UIM into place when I'm remounting it.
I bypassed the UIM coolant line that is a real pain to reinstall.
The pictures are from a 99 model that uses an electric EGR but the concept is the same.
I will share some tricks on the pictures.
After two UIM replacements, I learned that I needed the UIM tube gasket to stick to the UIM to make it easy to mate the tube to the UIM. I pre-mount the EGR tube gasket to the UIM with two very small drops of super glue. I already have it aligned over the bolt holes before I drop in the UIM.
Leave the two bottom bolts loose so you can swing the tube into the UIM once it has been mounted.
Here's a picture of the tube being tightened.
I plug off the UIM coolant line with a vacuum cap and bypass routing coolant through the UIM at the EGR tube mount location.
I use a short open end wrench to go under the exhaust tube to tighten rear nut.
Here's another UIM mounting trick below. I cut grooves in the mounting brackets so I can easily drop the UIM into place after maintenance. Some people just remove the brackets and run without them. I haven't tried that yet.
Since I'm usually working alone, I use the modified brackets to help guide the UIM into place when I'm remounting it.
I bypassed the UIM coolant line that is a real pain to reinstall.
The pictures are from a 99 model that uses an electric EGR but the concept is the same.
Last edited by CS_AR; 10-06-2016 at 06:36 AM.
10-07-2016, 07:56 AM
#12
I do not have the symptoms of a blown head gasket. Also, there is a very strong gas smell coming from the exhaust.
Nice work, CS_AR!
I got it all back together and still no start. I'm at a complete loss as to what it is.
Nice work, CS_AR!
I got it all back together and still no start. I'm at a complete loss as to what it is.
10-07-2016, 09:09 AM
#13
JvG just reminded me about how you had to pull your o2 sensors to get it to fire up. I'm going to have to try that next. If I can get them out. NY isn't kind to cars.
I really hope my cat isn't roasted. Even with my discount, they are NOT cheap.....
I really hope my cat isn't roasted. Even with my discount, they are NOT cheap.....
10-07-2016, 09:25 AM
#14
Something else worth mentioning....
I pulled the old plugs out yesterday after dismantling the tb, iacv, and unhook in all the sensors. For ****s and giggles I cranked it, just to see how the starter sounded. Not only was the stuttering gone, a giant snot of gas shot out of the back middle cylinder, and then my car started!
I shut it off immediately tho. Didn't want to risk ruining something I can't fix.
I pulled the old plugs out yesterday after dismantling the tb, iacv, and unhook in all the sensors. For ****s and giggles I cranked it, just to see how the starter sounded. Not only was the stuttering gone, a giant snot of gas shot out of the back middle cylinder, and then my car started!
I shut it off immediately tho. Didn't want to risk ruining something I can't fix.
10-09-2016, 06:19 AM
#15
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 83
https://maxima.org/forums/4th-genera...d-edition.html
10-09-2016, 11:53 AM
#16
Man you just try to start car. Strong gas smell is from flooded engine. Same happen to me past week. Read this, I can not write same again
https://maxima.org/forums/4th-genera...d-edition.html
https://maxima.org/forums/4th-genera...d-edition.html
10-09-2016, 01:31 PM
#17
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 83
10-09-2016, 01:36 PM
#18
I have spark and plenty of fuel. Problem is lack of air.
Currently trying to remove y pipe. Especially after seeing this:
Rear bank o2 sensor.
10-09-2016, 06:09 PM
#19
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 83
On of start is sign of electrical problems. If not code may be yours car computer do not work well. If you check already fuel and spark I would go to junkyard and bring that three sensors involved in starting. As you pull any of them check resistence (albeit as I wrote in other tread it is no definitely answer). Whit lack of air car would start but work erratically. It is control system problem.
10-10-2016, 02:41 PM
#20
On of start is sign of electrical problems. If not code may be yours car computer do not work well. If you check already fuel and spark I would go to junkyard and bring that three sensors involved in starting. As you pull any of them check resistence (albeit as I wrote in other tread it is no definitely answer). Whit lack of air car would start but work erratically. It is control system problem.
10-10-2016, 05:48 PM
#21
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 83
English is my second language. If help I finish electro phisics with grade A calculus level. My handy work you can se at "situm photobucket". Bro is it potato strong with you.
10-14-2016, 11:37 AM
#22
Update:
Y pipe is off. Tried to start it but it seems I've drained the battery from all my previous attempts....the cranking starts strong but quickly weakens and the lights on the dash fade.
Rear bank o2 sensor threads are stripped, so I'll be replacing that.
Realized I overlooked something while doing the injector swap: there was fuel in the fpr, which I've been told means the fpr is bad. So I'll be swapping that out as well.
Y pipe is off. Tried to start it but it seems I've drained the battery from all my previous attempts....the cranking starts strong but quickly weakens and the lights on the dash fade.
Rear bank o2 sensor threads are stripped, so I'll be replacing that.
Realized I overlooked something while doing the injector swap: there was fuel in the fpr, which I've been told means the fpr is bad. So I'll be swapping that out as well.
Last edited by maxima297; 10-14-2016 at 12:52 PM.
10-15-2016, 12:17 AM
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central AR
Posts: 3,041
Update:
Y pipe is off. Tried to start it but it seems I've drained the battery from all my previous attempts....the cranking starts strong but quickly weakens and the lights on the dash fade.
Rear bank o2 sensor threads are stripped, so I'll be replacing that.
Realized I overlooked something while doing the injector swap: there was fuel in the fpr, which I've been told means the fpr is bad. So I'll be swapping that out as well.
Y pipe is off. Tried to start it but it seems I've drained the battery from all my previous attempts....the cranking starts strong but quickly weakens and the lights on the dash fade.
Rear bank o2 sensor threads are stripped, so I'll be replacing that.
Realized I overlooked something while doing the injector swap: there was fuel in the fpr, which I've been told means the fpr is bad. So I'll be swapping that out as well.
We found the bung tap at Autozone as I recall.
10-15-2016, 12:44 PM
#24
I need to figure out how to charge my battery so that I can try to start this car tonight.
10-17-2016, 05:12 PM
#25
Regardless of you checking your 3 grounds and saying they "look good", do this.
Run a ground to each side of the tranny bell housing to the ground terminal on the battery and see if it fires right up.
Run a ground to each side of the tranny bell housing to the ground terminal on the battery and see if it fires right up.
10-17-2016, 05:29 PM
#26
Can someone delete the other thread then? I would but it seems I can't.
10-17-2016, 05:32 PM
#27
Also, I don't just mean they look good. I've sanded them down and sanded where they bolt to.
I'm pretty sure the Trans and motor mating surface was never sanded by the place who did the clutch job last October. I certainly don't know how to go about sanding it down without completely disassembling the front end, so I guess I'm going to be stuck adding grounds for the rest of my time with this car.
I'm pretty sure the Trans and motor mating surface was never sanded by the place who did the clutch job last October. I certainly don't know how to go about sanding it down without completely disassembling the front end, so I guess I'm going to be stuck adding grounds for the rest of my time with this car.
10-17-2016, 05:41 PM
#28
Also, I don't just mean they look good. I've sanded them down and sanded where they bolt to.
I'm pretty sure the Trans and motor mating surface was never sanded by the place who did the clutch job last October. I certainly don't know how to go about sanding it down without completely disassembling the front end, so I guess I'm going to be stuck adding grounds for the rest of my time with this car.
I'm pretty sure the Trans and motor mating surface was never sanded by the place who did the clutch job last October. I certainly don't know how to go about sanding it down without completely disassembling the front end, so I guess I'm going to be stuck adding grounds for the rest of my time with this car.
This issue has happened to many Orgers over the years.
10-17-2016, 05:44 PM
#29
The thing is.....I already added a ground between negative terminal and one of the transmission bolts, earlier this year. I still had long cranking issues but it would start up. So I guess I need more grounds?
10-18-2016, 08:30 AM
#32
Ptatohed had the exact grounding issue I'm describing from having his tranny apart, and he had the exact backfiring through the intake issues. He threw a ton of money at it trying to fix it, had 2 nissan dealers and three specialty shops look at it. He then learned about adding grounds, and with cheap *** speaker wire found laying around the garage, he fixed his Max and it's been great the last 10 years or so.
Let me find you a link to his story.
Let me find you a link to his story.
Last edited by The Wizard; 10-18-2016 at 10:15 AM.
10-18-2016, 08:35 AM
#33
Let me add some clarification
The starter grounds through the transmission. As our cars get old (and especially after you have transmission work done) the mating surface between the two halves of the transmission doesn't properly conduct the ground signal. You need to run a few ground wires from the starter to the other side of the trans and to the negative battery terminal. At least try it - it is an hour job, tops, and either free (if you have wire/cable lying around) or cheap (any wire will do to at least test, if it works you might want to buy some thicker gauge cables). Good luck.
Run a wire from one of the two starter bolts to any bolt on the other side of the trans (that should actually be enough but just in case...) and then to the battery's negative terminal (or any terminal grounding point).
The starter grounds through the transmission. As our cars get old (and especially after you have transmission work done) the mating surface between the two halves of the transmission doesn't properly conduct the ground signal. You need to run a few ground wires from the starter to the other side of the trans and to the negative battery terminal. At least try it - it is an hour job, tops, and either free (if you have wire/cable lying around) or cheap (any wire will do to at least test, if it works you might want to buy some thicker gauge cables). Good luck.
Run a wire from one of the two starter bolts to any bolt on the other side of the trans (that should actually be enough but just in case...) and then to the battery's negative terminal (or any terminal grounding point).
10-18-2016, 08:47 AM
#34
Read this thread. Can't find Ptatohed's thread, but this is the one that helped him.
https://maxima.org/forums/4th-genera...verything.html
https://maxima.org/forums/4th-genera...verything.html
10-18-2016, 08:43 PM
#35
i can bet mula its cam sensor or crank sensors. I also had this issue long time ago. Actually had it about 2 months ago but 1st time was after trans swap. Everyone said grounds grounds throw more grounds on their and clean bell housing off. Well i did that pulled trans back out cleaned mating surfaces and ran 3 0/1 ofc wire and still nothing. Changed my cam position sensor nothing. Changed the crank pos passenger side under the crank pulley nothing, changed the one on front of transmission bell housing boom fired right up. Also was told maf sensor which i have a few of everything sensor wise from other parts cars so just swapped everything out and then 2 months ago happened again. Same symptom then changed cam pos sensor out fixed it lol
10-19-2016, 03:32 PM
#36
Update:
Came home from work today and was finally able to tinker with the bi$ch. Swapped out the crank (pos) and cam sensors, no change, discovered and replaced a grungy looking ground with a bigger gauge wire, went to start her and she fired right up! Shut it off and did it again, fired right up almost immediately after turning the key.
Tomorrow, we drill out a busted manifold bolt, install the free y pipe I got last week, and put on some temporary piping where the main cat goes.
Thank you all for your help!
Came home from work today and was finally able to tinker with the bi$ch. Swapped out the crank (pos) and cam sensors, no change, discovered and replaced a grungy looking ground with a bigger gauge wire, went to start her and she fired right up! Shut it off and did it again, fired right up almost immediately after turning the key.
Tomorrow, we drill out a busted manifold bolt, install the free y pipe I got last week, and put on some temporary piping where the main cat goes.
Thank you all for your help!
Last edited by maxima297; 10-23-2016 at 05:40 PM.
10-21-2016, 10:20 AM
#37
She starts! But....fudge
Cylinder 1 misfire. 2 codes for rear bank of sensor being uninstalled. OK cool.
Gas fumes out the a$$. So bad my eyes sting after 15 minutes of driving. Idle is super high: 1350 at neutral and 2500 in gear at 60 as opposed to my original 650 in neutral and 1500 in gear. I did clean the iacv and tb during repairs, but I never touched the idle ****. I'm pretty confident I put everything back as it should be (except that o2).
Takes about 10 seconds to fire up, and I can hear the injectors spraying 2x during cranking before she turns over.
But she starts. That's good, right?
Gas fumes out the a$$. So bad my eyes sting after 15 minutes of driving. Idle is super high: 1350 at neutral and 2500 in gear at 60 as opposed to my original 650 in neutral and 1500 in gear. I did clean the iacv and tb during repairs, but I never touched the idle ****. I'm pretty confident I put everything back as it should be (except that o2).
Takes about 10 seconds to fire up, and I can hear the injectors spraying 2x during cranking before she turns over.
But she starts. That's good, right?
10-23-2016, 05:23 PM
#38
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 83
On of start is sign of electrical problems. If not code may be yours car computer do not work well. If you check already fuel and spark I would go to junkyard and bring that three sensors involved in starting. As you pull any of them check resistence (albeit as I wrote in other tread it is no definitely answer). Whit lack of air car would start but work erratically. It is control system problem.
Last edited by bbsitum; 10-23-2016 at 05:31 PM.
10-23-2016, 05:42 PM
#39
Ok do you see that you are f moron. I have to be careful to whom I give advice as you do not deserve it. F idiot. From now on I will read tread and decide if I need give advice or not. This must be school for me. If I see that OP is f moron, as I spot it in this tread I will not comment or give advice. Will communicate only with intelligent people.
I'm uneducated and an fn moron, and yet I don't drive on flat tires and ruin them. Please, do me a favor and keep your "intelligent" comments off my post.
