1999 gen4 tries but no start
10-05-2016, 09:16 AM
#1
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1999 gen4 tries but no start
Hello all,
first time on the forum, searched around but did not quite find an answer...
have a 1999 ge4 SE California emission car; it drove home the other night just fine then refused to start the next morning. Starter was weak, so I replaced it. Car tried to start first crank then started cranking hard with an occasional pop in the tailpipe. Pulling plugs (recently replaced with wires) showed they were fuel fouled. I downloaded the FSM, checked fuel pressure (at the filter) and ohm'd out each coil pack. I then took one coil pack and moved it cylinder to cylinder and got spark at each one. So I threw new plugs in it... and it cranked like it wanted to start right up, but did not and then returned to the hard-cranking scenario. pulled the plugs and yet again fuel soaked. I'm stumped, hoping the maxima gods here can point me in the right direction!
first time on the forum, searched around but did not quite find an answer...
have a 1999 ge4 SE California emission car; it drove home the other night just fine then refused to start the next morning. Starter was weak, so I replaced it. Car tried to start first crank then started cranking hard with an occasional pop in the tailpipe. Pulling plugs (recently replaced with wires) showed they were fuel fouled. I downloaded the FSM, checked fuel pressure (at the filter) and ohm'd out each coil pack. I then took one coil pack and moved it cylinder to cylinder and got spark at each one. So I threw new plugs in it... and it cranked like it wanted to start right up, but did not and then returned to the hard-cranking scenario. pulled the plugs and yet again fuel soaked. I'm stumped, hoping the maxima gods here can point me in the right direction!
10-05-2016, 09:22 AM
#2
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Location: Central AR
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Wet plugs == Leaking injector o-rings and most likely cracked pintle caps.
Here's a recent post on this subject.
https://maxima.org/forums/4th-genera...ml#post9127550
And the following thread.
https://maxima.org/forums/4th-genera...-tailpipe.html
Here's a recent post on this subject.
https://maxima.org/forums/4th-genera...ml#post9127550
And the following thread.
https://maxima.org/forums/4th-genera...-tailpipe.html
10-05-2016, 09:33 AM
#3
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CS_AR,
thanks for the quick reply! I saw those posts, wasn't 100% sure they applied as I don 't have gas-out-the-pipeitis.
However, I will pull and check injectors. Does it makes sense that the car would drive in ok and then just no start the next day? no rough running of any sort, no codes... just shut off and then done.
thanks for the quick reply! I saw those posts, wasn't 100% sure they applied as I don 't have gas-out-the-pipeitis.
However, I will pull and check injectors. Does it makes sense that the car would drive in ok and then just no start the next day? no rough running of any sort, no codes... just shut off and then done.
10-05-2016, 10:09 AM
#4
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That's how it basically happened with mine. However, the flooding had been quietly occurring for a while before it resulted in the car becoming nearly impossible to start. Too much fuel for too long will roast your cats. In my case, the roasted cats were restricting exhaust flow to the point where I could no longer start the engine without cranking it for like 15 minutes. If the car was warm, it wouldn't start period.
All that cranking shortened the life of the starter. Once I pulled the O2 sensors, I could start and drive it reliably. Though it was very loud. I only had two leaking injectors -- one on each bank.
The wet plugs are telling us the injector o-rings are not holding fuel pressure in the rail. This can also give the symptom of a failing Fuel Pressure Regulator with extra long start times while the fuel pump builds up enough pressure from the leak to allow the car to run.
Since you have a 99 model, please do not attempt to start the car with the door open. I believe after 3 to 5 unsuccessful attempts to start a 99 model with the door open, the NATS system will be tripped. It thinks you are trying to steal the car. Make sure the security light is not showing a solid red. I would hate to read about you accidentally tripping NATS in the process of trying to start the car. That took a tow to the dealer and $250 (with the original keys) to get NATS reset on my 99 model. I learned that one the hard way. Hard to start from flooding with leaving the door opened while trying to start the car resulted in me tripping NATS.
I once bought a 99 model I30 for $250 where the car had a fuel pump replacement by people who didn't understand NATS. The owner took the car to Goodyear and had a new fuel pump installed. Somehow in the process of her attempts to start the car or people at Goodyear trying to diagnose the issue, NATS had been tripped. She had it towed to the dealer where they told her without really checking the car that the ECU was bad. They gave her a $1,400 estimate to repair the car. I picked up a used ECU at a junk yard for a 99 model GLE for $35 and then had the car towed to the dealer and paid $250 to get NATS reset. That was in 2010. The car is still running.
You can try cleaning the crankshaft position sensors. That's an easy thing to rule out. Check all of your fuses in the car and under the hood also.
Without seeing the car or being able to test it in person, any of my suggestions are based strictly on empiricism with my four 4th gens.
All that cranking shortened the life of the starter. Once I pulled the O2 sensors, I could start and drive it reliably. Though it was very loud. I only had two leaking injectors -- one on each bank.
The wet plugs are telling us the injector o-rings are not holding fuel pressure in the rail. This can also give the symptom of a failing Fuel Pressure Regulator with extra long start times while the fuel pump builds up enough pressure from the leak to allow the car to run.
Since you have a 99 model, please do not attempt to start the car with the door open. I believe after 3 to 5 unsuccessful attempts to start a 99 model with the door open, the NATS system will be tripped. It thinks you are trying to steal the car. Make sure the security light is not showing a solid red. I would hate to read about you accidentally tripping NATS in the process of trying to start the car. That took a tow to the dealer and $250 (with the original keys) to get NATS reset on my 99 model. I learned that one the hard way. Hard to start from flooding with leaving the door opened while trying to start the car resulted in me tripping NATS.
I once bought a 99 model I30 for $250 where the car had a fuel pump replacement by people who didn't understand NATS. The owner took the car to Goodyear and had a new fuel pump installed. Somehow in the process of her attempts to start the car or people at Goodyear trying to diagnose the issue, NATS had been tripped. She had it towed to the dealer where they told her without really checking the car that the ECU was bad. They gave her a $1,400 estimate to repair the car. I picked up a used ECU at a junk yard for a 99 model GLE for $35 and then had the car towed to the dealer and paid $250 to get NATS reset. That was in 2010. The car is still running.
You can try cleaning the crankshaft position sensors. That's an easy thing to rule out. Check all of your fuses in the car and under the hood also.
Without seeing the car or being able to test it in person, any of my suggestions are based strictly on empiricism with my four 4th gens.
Last edited by CS_AR; 10-05-2016 at 10:27 AM.
10-05-2016, 12:24 PM
#5
sounds to me like NATS may have gotten you, or it may be a simple grounding issue. Run a ground to each side of the tranny bell housing to the ground terminal on the battery and see if it fires right up.
10-06-2016, 04:08 AM
#7
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10-07-2016, 04:23 AM
#8
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Ok men,
talked to Mr. Injector out in Idaho, Bill was kind enough to ship a kit with both filters to fit either style of injector at a reduced cost. Love great service! At any rate, last night I pulled the injectors. None of the o-rings were cracked or broken, but all 6 pulled out fairly easy so I am thinking these rings are shrunk up. Next step is to punch out the cats; trying to do this on a limited budget for my kid (she's broke; Daaaaaaaddyyy....)
talked to Mr. Injector out in Idaho, Bill was kind enough to ship a kit with both filters to fit either style of injector at a reduced cost. Love great service! At any rate, last night I pulled the injectors. None of the o-rings were cracked or broken, but all 6 pulled out fairly easy so I am thinking these rings are shrunk up. Next step is to punch out the cats; trying to do this on a limited budget for my kid (she's broke; Daaaaaaaddyyy....)
10-07-2016, 05:29 AM
#9
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I would do the left back (front) three injectors first. Try starting the car to see if it made a difference and eliminated the wet plug issue for those cylinders then move to the right bank (rear) where you need to go under the UIM.
I would just remove the front O2 sensors and let them hang where they won't get damaged, for a test run before punching out the cats. Just removing the O2 sensors will let the engine breathe through open bung holes long enough so you can determine if clogged cats are the problem.
I would just remove the front O2 sensors and let them hang where they won't get damaged, for a test run before punching out the cats. Just removing the O2 sensors will let the engine breathe through open bung holes long enough so you can determine if clogged cats are the problem.
10-07-2016, 12:04 PM
#10
I would do the left back (front) three injectors first. Try starting the car to see if it made a difference and eliminated the wet plug issue for those cylinders then move to the right bank (rear) where you need to go under the UIM.
I would just remove the front O2 sensors and let them hang where they won't get damaged, for a test run before punching out the cats. Just removing the O2 sensors will let the engine breathe through open bung holes long enough so you can determine if clogged cats are the problem.
I would just remove the front O2 sensors and let them hang where they won't get damaged, for a test run before punching out the cats. Just removing the O2 sensors will let the engine breathe through open bung holes long enough so you can determine if clogged cats are the problem.
10-07-2016, 07:34 PM
#11
10-08-2016, 04:11 AM
#14
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"Like diz"... HAHAHA too funny!
I had a 2000 Quest, had to replace bad injectors on that so getting under the UIM wasn't too difficult. have all 6 injectors out, just waiting on SnailMail to get the parts here express... As for the cats, I have a suspicion that these things were clogged a bit when we started. There just isn't much out the tailpipe, even before this no-start issue popped up.
I had a 2000 Quest, had to replace bad injectors on that so getting under the UIM wasn't too difficult. have all 6 injectors out, just waiting on SnailMail to get the parts here express... As for the cats, I have a suspicion that these things were clogged a bit when we started. There just isn't much out the tailpipe, even before this no-start issue popped up.
10-11-2016, 07:20 AM
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Ok peeps,
An update. Pulled and re-ringed the injectors, they did not look bad but that was step one. Then dropped the cats; they were not cooked, but I cleaned them out anyway. Added another ground cable to the block for good measure. Car was still a no start, and when we boosted the battery it did not spin any faster. Hmmm.. that's when I found the completely seized A/C pulley bearing (DOH!). Fixed that (still need a coil for it) and now the car starts. Thing is, it starts HARD. cranks real fast, have to hold your foot on the gas pedal to get it running. Once running it runs very good, no misses or bucking. Double checked all my connectors etc... Anyone have an idea why this thing is being so balky? Could the new injector rings still be leaking?
Andy
An update. Pulled and re-ringed the injectors, they did not look bad but that was step one. Then dropped the cats; they were not cooked, but I cleaned them out anyway. Added another ground cable to the block for good measure. Car was still a no start, and when we boosted the battery it did not spin any faster. Hmmm.. that's when I found the completely seized A/C pulley bearing (DOH!). Fixed that (still need a coil for it) and now the car starts. Thing is, it starts HARD. cranks real fast, have to hold your foot on the gas pedal to get it running. Once running it runs very good, no misses or bucking. Double checked all my connectors etc... Anyone have an idea why this thing is being so balky? Could the new injector rings still be leaking?
Andy
10-11-2016, 08:19 AM
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CS_AR,
I did clean both sensors yesterday (along with the cam sensor). to my knowledge the FPS has never been changed, however it holds vacuum and is not leaking fuel so for now I think that is working. ECTS? Never thought of that...
I did clean both sensors yesterday (along with the cam sensor). to my knowledge the FPS has never been changed, however it holds vacuum and is not leaking fuel so for now I think that is working. ECTS? Never thought of that...
10-13-2016, 04:37 AM
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So the saga continues....
hooked a scanner to the car, ECTS is reading fine; actually ALL readings look good! Here is something:
Before I found the seized A/C (when the car would crank and not start) we tried starting it with the Catalytic Y pipe off. Each time we tried that there would be raw fuel coming out of the 2-4-6 (front) exhaust manifold. Never out of the rear. We pulled the injectors and double checked the o-rings and they looked fine. Could this be an injector that is leaking? the hard-start is intermittent; sometimes you hit the key and it is running leas than 2 seconds, other times cranks 3-5 seconds, pops like a misfire in the exhaust then starts. Car runs fine once started, both O2 banks switching and no misfire codes....
A real head scratcher!
hooked a scanner to the car, ECTS is reading fine; actually ALL readings look good! Here is something:
Before I found the seized A/C (when the car would crank and not start) we tried starting it with the Catalytic Y pipe off. Each time we tried that there would be raw fuel coming out of the 2-4-6 (front) exhaust manifold. Never out of the rear. We pulled the injectors and double checked the o-rings and they looked fine. Could this be an injector that is leaking? the hard-start is intermittent; sometimes you hit the key and it is running leas than 2 seconds, other times cranks 3-5 seconds, pops like a misfire in the exhaust then starts. Car runs fine once started, both O2 banks switching and no misfire codes....
A real head scratcher!
Last edited by Andrew Guattery; 10-13-2016 at 04:39 AM.
10-13-2016, 11:43 AM
#20
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How are the left bank injectors Ohm testing?
Can you feel the injectors clicking when it runs?
Are you finding a wet plug when it tries to start?
If you lift up the rail, and place a paper towel underneath each injector,can you find any leakage under an injector just by turning on the switch (not starting) and running the fuel pump?
When I refurbished my injectors, I ran a pressure and leak test in the picture below.
I used the paper towels to detect any injector leaks while making sure the fuel pressure didn't drop. I had the return line plugged off and used the fuel pump from my Q45 to drive the test because it was an easy hookup and the pump pushes 60 psi.
Can you feel the injectors clicking when it runs?
Are you finding a wet plug when it tries to start?
If you lift up the rail, and place a paper towel underneath each injector,can you find any leakage under an injector just by turning on the switch (not starting) and running the fuel pump?
When I refurbished my injectors, I ran a pressure and leak test in the picture below.
I used the paper towels to detect any injector leaks while making sure the fuel pressure didn't drop. I had the return line plugged off and used the fuel pump from my Q45 to drive the test because it was an easy hookup and the pump pushes 60 psi.
11-03-2016, 06:56 AM
#21
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Ok guys,
Sorry for the long time between posts; been trying to find time to work on this thing. Even though I re-sealed the injectors yesterday I pulled up the front injector rail and did the paper towel test; no dumping fuel there. I also tested (per the FSM) both crank sensors and the cam sensor, all tested good so far. All six injectors are clicking... The car will crank and stumble/pop like it is backfiring/cough and then suddenly start. Once started the car runs fine. If the car is driven a long distance then both upper O2 sensors will lock a high error which I believe is a lean condition...
could this be low fuel pressure? Pulling the vacuum line off the pressure regulator makes a minimal difference; there is a slight change in the motor rpm and that is about it.
Sorry for the long time between posts; been trying to find time to work on this thing. Even though I re-sealed the injectors yesterday I pulled up the front injector rail and did the paper towel test; no dumping fuel there. I also tested (per the FSM) both crank sensors and the cam sensor, all tested good so far. All six injectors are clicking... The car will crank and stumble/pop like it is backfiring/cough and then suddenly start. Once started the car runs fine. If the car is driven a long distance then both upper O2 sensors will lock a high error which I believe is a lean condition...
could this be low fuel pressure? Pulling the vacuum line off the pressure regulator makes a minimal difference; there is a slight change in the motor rpm and that is about it.
11-06-2016, 01:22 PM
#22
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[SOLVED]
Ok gang, this turned out to be just one more grounding issue... Took the grounds off the block and trans bolts, cleaned the bolt pads for the starter mount and moved the grounds there. Then added another 4 gauge ground cable from the trans to the chassis. And now all is good! At least I now all the electronics and mechanicals are good!
Ok gang, this turned out to be just one more grounding issue... Took the grounds off the block and trans bolts, cleaned the bolt pads for the starter mount and moved the grounds there. Then added another 4 gauge ground cable from the trans to the chassis. And now all is good! At least I now all the electronics and mechanicals are good!
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