Muslenutz

What are the benefits of synthetic oil?

MaxLoverAz

iTrader: (1)

OMG this will be a marathon thread, you should post that question here:

http://forums.maxima.org/fluids-lubricants-52/

If you really want to learn and get a non-biased explanation go here:

http://my350z.com/forum/engine-and-d...-and-info.html

Here is wikipedia on the subject:

Advantages

The technical advantages of synthetic motor oils include:

Measurably better low and high temperature viscosity performance
Better chemical & shear stability
Decreased evaporative loss
Resistance to oxidation, thermal breakdown and oil sludge problems
Extended drain intervals with the environmental benefit of less oil waste.
Improved fuel economy in certain engine configurations.
Better lubrication on cold starts

Disadvantages

The disadvantages of synthetic motor oils include:

The lower friction may make them unsuitable for break-in (i.e. the initial run-in period of the vehicle) where friction is desirable to cause wear. Improved engine part machining has made break-in less critical than it once was, though.
Many modern cars now come with synthetic oil as a factory fill. (GT-R/Corvette/Porsche)
Potential decomposition problems in certain chemical environments (industrial use dominantly)
Potential stress cracking of plastic components like POM (polyoxymethylene) in the presence of PAOs (polyalphaolefins).

Potential on some older pushrod race engines with roller lifters for the roller itself not to spin with camshaft movement, but rather slide while the roller itself remains either stationary or at a lower circumferential speed than that of the camshaft lobe.

Synthetics do not hold lead in suspension as well as mineral oil, thus caution is advised when the engine is run on leaded fuel. As an example, leaded fuel is still commonly used in aviation (avgas).

In July 1996, Consumer Reports published the results of a two year motor oil test involving a fleet of 75 New York taxi cabs and found no noticeable advantage of synthetic oil over regular oil. In their article, they noted that "Big-city cabs don't see many cold start-ups or long periods of high speed driving in extreme heat. But our test results relate to the most common type of severe service — stop-and-go city driving." According to their study, synthetic oil is "worth considering for extreme driving conditions: high ambient temperatures and high engine load, or very cold temperatures."

Synthetic oils are not recommended in automotive rotary engines.

maxout!

If you use Synthetic, you'll allow barney to live another day.

say no to dino oil. save a life today.

Y2K3350Z

iTrader: (2)

lol!!!!

Rydicule

There are a wide variety of arguments and perspectives on synthetic vs blended vs dino oil...

For a car as new as a 7th gen, what you can bet on is that synthetic will protect the engine better for longer oil change intervals.

imcgjh84

FYI, I used that Nissan Ester oil for the first, second, third and will use for the forth change. Then, Mobil 1 onward!! I love the synthetic stuff, I just want sufficient break in before doing so. I have looked at a crap load of threads on here, the 370z, G's and etc. pages about the same question. To disseminate, use the stuff, just after 10K-15K.

Second FYI, if anyone was interested in buying the Ester Oil instead for the time being these Z1 Motorsports guys are reasonably priced (of course compared to the $17-18 at the dealership.

http://www.z1motorsports.com/g37_370...oducts_id=3679

whtdvl

I have done a lot of research on this ester oil crap and i cant see my self paying $109 for an oil change at the dealer and every 3500 miles they told me. So what I do is use mobil1 fully synthetic oil which should work just fine in my baby lol.

MaxLoverAz

iTrader: (1)

I don't know what dealer quoted you that amount but run, run far away....

OEM Filter, 5 qts of Ester, crush washer all for around $60- if you purchase on your own.

2young2retire

On the other hand, quote:

A so-called fossil fuel, petroleum is believed by most scientists to be the transformed remains of long dead organisms. The majority of petroleum is thought to come from the fossils of plants and tiny marine organisms. Larger animals might contribute to the mix as well.
"Even some of the dinosaurs may have gotten involved in some of this," says William Thomas, a geologists at the University of Kentucky. "[Although] I think it would be quite rare and a very small and insignificant contribution."

That being said, who gives a $hit, just get it, refine it, and sell it to me cheap!

And 'dino oil' sounds better than 'tiny marine organism oil'.

lightonthehill

Yes, full synthetic will work in our 7th gen Maxima. But this car was DESIGNED AND ENGINEERED for DINO oil (the ester oil is a dino oil), and will run on (LESS EXPENSIVE) DINO oil just as well (if not better) than on full synthetic.

But full synthetic might be a good choice for those who don't change their oil on Nissan's recommended schedule, or who don't keep up with proper maintenance on their car, and tend to delay or forget to get oil changes.

A synthetic blend might be the best of both worlds.

1rubyd

Hey Maxima family. I have a question. I just purchased my 2010 Maxima about 4 months ago. I was told that this car required a "special" type of oil and it will cost me at the dealer $78 bucks. What the hell?

Is there anyone that can perform this oil change with this "special oil" other than the dealer? On top of that....WHAT IS THE OIL THAT THE 2010 MAXIMA USES?

MaxLoverAz

iTrader: (1)

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Nissan+Ester+Oil

smarty666

That sounds about right for the price gouging the stealerships charge. My local Nissan dealer quoted me about $90-95 for a their ester oil change. That is ridiculous.

I'm going to try a high grade synthetic to see if I can get this knocking and pinging away. What really is the difference between ester and synthetic oil? At 3750, my Nissan dealer put in regular motor oil, not ester or synthetic which is what I think is causing all this ridiculous amount of knocking and pinging. Its not the gas, since I use Shell Premium exclusively so I'm assuming its the oil.

I'm thinking of trying Valvoline Super Syn, or Mobil Super Syn, or Castor Super Syn! Anyone try these with any luck?

smarty666

I just realized, the Max comes with the factory with ester oil correct? I refused the almost 100 bucks Nissan wanted to charge me for an oil and filter change with ester oil at 3750 miles and I think the clinging/knocking/pinging I'm hearing might be valve chatter? Nissan put regular oil in at 3750 and I think that might be what the noise is from?

lightonthehill

I would be extremely doubtful that 'regular oil' (name brand dino) wouid cause any kind of engine noise in your Maxima. I used dino oil in one of my Maximas for well over 200,000 miles without the first whisper of noise from the engine. With name-brand dino oil and Premium Shell gas and very few miles on the odometer, there should be absolutely NO 'clinging/knocking/pinging' coming from your engine.

It is time to stop trying to cover this problem with super oils, etc, and have the dealer adjust the valves, or whatever is causing your noise. This is a MAXIMA, not a Chevy. You deserve MUCH BETTER. One thing that should be 'standard equipment' with all Maximas is PEACE OF MIND.

logik05se

I know the whole idea of a $100 oil change sounds ridiculous, I won't disagree there. What's more ridiculous if you try to save a couple of bucks by going to jiffy lube for 3 years, and happen to have internal engine failure and Nissan denies warranty claim due to improper maintenance. Yes, that will happen.

Maybe I'm confused here so if so, enlighten me if i am. Ester oil is synthetic, and dino oil is standard base stock oil that comes from the ground (with additives of course).

MaxLoverAz

iTrader: (1)

Nissan Ester oil is actually a Group III oil although we haven't been able to confirm 100%. I don't agree with Lightonthehills' quote but most people don't understand synthetic oils, most think they are only for long duration OCI intervals. I personally stopped using Nissan Ester as my two UOA's came back with a rapid drop in viscosity (high shearing) and the TBN dropped like a rock. I now have Pennzoil Ultra and I'm really happy with it.

If you want to learn more head over to http://www.bobistheoilguy.com


What are Group 1 and Group 2 base stocks, and which oils use them?

These are the non-synthetic base oil groups. These base stocks are made from conventional crude oils that have been refined to a point where it meets the standards set by the American Petroleum Institute for engine oil. Some conventional G2 oils perform as well as some synthetic oils in UOA's because of the excellent additive packages used to fortify the base stock. Such oils are cheaper than synthetic oils and offer excellent engine protection. However, G2 oils typically cannot achieve the same viscosity spread as synthetics, such as an 0W-40 oil weight. They also cannot protect as well as synthetic oils when it comes to severe heat and stress conditions like racing or FI. Also, because they use a base stock that is not as refined as the higher grouped oils, they do not typically have the stability needed for the extended oil change intervals that synthetic oils can achieve. It is important to look at the UOA results of G2 oils and see which have performed well. The better performing G2 oils are a good buy for the owner who does not need an extended oil change interval, or participate in heavy track use.

What is a Group 3 base stock, and what oils use it?

These oils are made from either a severely processed crude oil or slack wax feedstock.

We’ll look at each separately:

1. Severely processed crude oils are known as “hydroisomerized” or “hydroprocessed” oils. These oils have gone through an advanced distillation process to remove undesirable crude hydrocarbons (like wax) from the crude oil base stock. Since the oil has been so thoroughly distilled through chemical processes, and only the “best” hydrocarbons remain in the oil, it is considered a synthetic. “Hydrocracked” oils, as they are also commonly called, are the most popular Group 3 base stock. These oils must have a VI over 120 and tend to have NOACK scores 11% or higher for a standard 30 weight oil.

2. Slack Wax Feedstocks are the only Group 3 oils not made directly from crude. The most popular oils that I know of that use slack wax as a base oil are from Shell. Sometimes referred to as XHVI oils, Shell manufacturers a base oil from synthetic slack wax which matches most PAO (group4) oil characteristics.

I’ve heard of Group 3+ oils, what are they?

G3+ oils are actually oils made from the new series of GTL base stocks. GTL (Gas To Liquid) allows an oil to meet the qualities of most PAO base stocks for less money. They are new, and able to achieve 0W-xx grades for engine oils due to VI and cold pour point measures that match PAO base stocks. They are made from a form of hydrocarbon synthesis known as the Fischer Tropsch process. This process is how the first synthetic oils were created, and is used with an isomerization sequence to make a very stable and effective base stock. These should become more popular in the future.

What is a Group 4 base stock, what is a PAO, and what oils use it?

These are oils whose base stocks come from fully saturated hydrocarbons known as polyalphaolefins, or PAO’s. They are synthesized from ethylene gas, which is a byproduct of refined crude oil. PAO base stocks are prized for their flexibility in making oils with a large viscosity index that perform well over a long oil change interval and under high stress. PAO oils are more stable in the presence of water and moisture than Esters, have very low pour points, and excellent thermal stability. What makes a PAO good in these areas also makes it a poor solvent, so PAO’s must be blended with another base stock in order to dissolve the additives that are included in the oil. Many racing oils are some type of Group 4 oil, and typically also work very well for street driven cars that see track use or are running some type of forced induction. Group 4 30wt oils tend to have NOACK scores between 6% and 9%.

What is a Group 5 base stock, and what oils use it?

This group includes Esters, Alkylated Napthalene, cycloaliphatics, silicones, silahydrocarbons, polyalkylene glycols, perfluoroalkylpolyethers, polybutenes, and any other fluids that do not fit in Groups 1-4. Esters and Alkylated Napthalene are the two most common, and we’ll look at each separately:

1. Esters are an aromatic hydrocarbon group found in many fruits and vegetables. They are commonly used as flavoring agents in drinks, and for their smells in perfumes. Esters are defined by the presence of one carbon atom and two oxygen atoms attached to the end of a hydrocarbon molecule. Since we have already seen by now that not all hydrocarbons perform the same (hence the whole need for Group classification), it can be assumed that not all Esters function the same in terms of engine oil. There are some 600 known Esters, and manufacturers have found that some Esters can be synthesized from natural resources and be very stable in extreme heat and stress, such as in a racing engine. Most Esters help swell and condition seals, and may be used as an additive in other oils for this reason. Esters also have a polar affinity to most metals, and this allows film strength under zero pressure. Some esters, such as polyolesters, are not hydrolytically stable and are not compatible with elastomer type seals. Most Ester based oils will have NOACK scores around 6% for a 30wt oil.

2. Alkylated Napthalene is a less common base stock. It is a synthesized aromatic hydrocarbon. The Alkyl group is introduced to Napthalene and forms a stable polycyclic structure that can be used to stabilize oxidation in the oil. It is usually not used as a base stock by itself, but as a Group 5 additive to other base stocks. Alkylated napthalene resists heat and oxidation better than mineral oil, PAO, or diester, is hydrolytically stable unlike polyolester, has good additive solvency, and is more elastomer compatible than esters. However, most napthanics don't have very high VI's.

Group 5 oils are the highest number base stock, why don’t they have the best UOA results?

Some Ester based oils perform worse than, or no better than, some oils using mostly Group 2 or 3 base stocks. One possible culprit is an Ester’s tendency for hydrolysis. As an oil is slowly degraded over time by oxidation, the result is more acids in the oil. These acids can break down the Ester into an alcohol and a carboxyl acid. This process is known as Ester Hydrolysis. Hydrolysis is also created by an introduction of water or moisture to the oil. It is not an issue when the engine is running hard for most of its oil change interval, such as in a racing series. This is because there is enough energy in the form of heat to catalyze the reverse reaction, that is, to re-create an Ester from the alcohol and carboxyl acid. For an oil that isn’t changed very often, unlike a racing engine, hydrolysis may be a factor. This is only one theory as to why Ester base stocks sometimes don’t perform better than other oils as seen from UOA’s.

lightonthehill

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[QUOTE=logik05se;7536496]I know the whole idea of a $100 oil change sounds ridiculous, I won't disagree there. What's more ridiculous if you try to save a couple of bucks by going to jiffy lube for 3 years, and happen to have internal engine failure and Nissan denies warranty claim due to improper maintenance.

Yes, that will happen.


************************************************** *************************


No it won't. Not if you keep records to prove you did the proper oil changes. Keep in mind that the Owner's Manual RECCOMENDS the new ester oil, but also specifies that DINO OIL meeting current automotive standards is an approved option, SO MEETS FULL WARRANTY REQUIREMENTS.

Carrying this further, both the Nissan dealers nearest to me automatically use dino oil without even asking when I take my '09 in for an oil change. My son says the dealer nearest him does the same.

I am not disparaging ester oil or synthetic, and I'm sure both are excellent, maybe even superior oils. If I were a very aggressive driver, or drove in harsh conditions, I would unquestionably go with one of those two (probably synthetic). But, with the way I baby my ride, dino has always worked fine. I have never had even a whisper of engine trouble, even after several hundred thousand miles on dino.

Buit every driver must decide for themselves.

logik05se

[QUOTE=lightonthehill;7536678]************************************************** *************************
I've witnessed it.

smarty666

It is absolutely ridiculous! Who does Nissan think they are charging those prices, a Mercedes dealer?

I'm not worried about voiding warranty. To me, the ester oil BS they sell for these high price oil changes are typical stealership tactics to get you in there and hose you for a lot of money! You know, $90-$110 bucks every 3750 adds up quickly you know!

I've taken my FX35 to outside places for oil changes all the time, like Goodyear, American Tire/Auto Care, etc and have always put in fully synthetic oils (ie Valvoline SynPower, Pennzoil Platinum, Mobil 1, and have never had a problem with it. I've heard Amsoil Fully Synthetic is the best on the market so I might try that eventually. As long as you put the correct grade of oil in and its fully synthetic, and you keep your records each time the oil and filter is changed, you won't void your warranty. When I turned in my one Infiniti lease, they didn't even want to look or keep any of my maintenance records as proof that I did all the normal maintenece stuff!

MaxLoverAz

iTrader: (1)

Yep and you can also use dino and keep your records just in case as lighonthehill states and you'll have zero issues regarding warranty. I also have in the past offered up my maintenance records (I only do OCI and filter changes myself) and they didn't want to look either everything was fine.

logik05se

Fx35's don't need ester, reg oil is fine in that motor.

Like I said I've witnessed it. In any other car, as long as you have records Nissan will not question it, but with the 370Z, 09 and up Murano, and 09 and up Maxima, they are a little more strict.

I personally could care less when someone tells me they're going to get there oil changed outside for x amount of dollars, it's not my car...I explain to them how Nissan goes about this and nothing further.

smarty666

Oh I know that about the FX, but I've found that the engines in my cars are a lot quieter, less valve chatter, knocking/pinging etc with fully synthetic oil then regular motor oil!

gizzsdad

I've no ester oil in my Max for 3000 miles now - no noise of any kind.

This ester oil scam is one of the worst Nissan's ever concocted.

The ester oil is needed(required) on VQ37 engines, which have a completely different valve train than the VQ35. And the VQ37's weren't "designed for" ester oil. The oil was developed AFTER G37 and 370Z owners were complaining about the valve train noise.

The scam part is RECOMMENDING it for other engines, purely for profit motives.

smarty666

My FX35 engine is almost exactly the same as this Maxima. 3.5LV6 280HP and 268lbs of torque and that does not require ester oil so it is a terrible money racket!

Light doesn't think so, but I'm having terrible knocking/pinging with my Maxima the last few thousand miles. When I found out at 3750 how much my Nissan dealer wanted for the ester oil and that the only way it was a free oil change is by putting in regular oil that is what they gave me; I hope the thats once I put synthetic in that will get rid of the noise but if not light is right and I'll be going in with it and making a stink. This car should not be making these noises while the engine is running. It makes it sound so unrefined!

I've been using fully synthetic oil in my Acura and FX for years and haven't had any of this knocking and pinging noise so its got to be from the regular oil Nissan put in at 3750.

gizzsdad

Without being able to hear your noise I obviously can't tell you what is causing it, though I highly, highly doubt the oil.

My two most logical thoughts would be some bad gas - it happens to every supplier now and then. Or possibly a/some bad coil(s). Thaere was a real rash of them in VQ35's some years ago, and I got all of mine replaced free, even though I was out of warranty.

I wouldn't wait to change oil - I'd get it in soon. If you can duplicate it for the techs, they should be able to cure it. It could even be a bad spark plug wire.

smarty666

It is definitely not the gas. I fill up with Shell Premium all the time from the same station, same pump. My other vehicles are filled up from the same station, same pump and they have no clinging/knocking/pinging so its definitely not the gas.

I'll be taking it in to Nissan any way, since they still have not fixed my shaking passenger front seat and you can hear this noise all the time when the car is running for more than 5 minutes so it will get solved!

logik05se

Don't get me wrong either, I don't agree with the whole ester oil thing. As a service advisor, you have no idea how much harder it makes my job...over BS. Unfortunately it is what it is, don't kill the messenger lol.

MONTE 01&97 SE

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=lightonthehill;7536678]************************************************** *************************
I agree, I have 100s of thousand of miles on VQ and VG engines from 3.0 to 3.7 and has never had an issue with dino. So what exactly did Nissan do to the 09 Maximas internals differently than it did with the 3.5 in the FX, 350Z, 02-08 Maxima's to make it run better on Ester...nothing. Like Light said they recommend it but not required, just like they required premium fuel for the 09 Max but in 10 they recommend it as with prior yrs 3.5 Maxima's.......Nothing changed in the cars system from 09 to 10.....

STARR

iTrader: (1)

1st I would like to thank MaxLoverAz for posting all the links, I have spent countless hours reading information, so thank you very much

2nd, you don't need oil change records, keeping them is good and smart, I do that and eveyone should, but when I worked for Nissan, the usual method of engine failures was uncommon but usually several signs throw red flags up, it's leased, and the owner changes the oil every 3000 but never has a receipt and lastly, if your engine failed for whatever reason, and you changed the oil, the dealer will pull it out and open it up, usually they ship it back to the factory cause they want oil samples, the oil filter, the air filter, they do every conceivable test on it, but it's a sure thing when the oil has not been changed.

I've seen car get towed into the dealer cause the engine stopped and they lock them up in the shop and don't let the owners touch them, they just want reps to look at the cars and verify that the original oil filter is on the car with 40k on the odometer

For those who go to outside oil changes places, just go to reputable shops, that is my only advise, Nissan does not want to replace an engine in your car cause the Jiffy Lube you went to messed up your engine, Nissan wants their insurance money to pay for the engine replacement, you just can't get a botched oil change and think the warranty will cover it

STARR

iTrader: (1)

Some guy in freshalloy who has a Maxima, has a weird knock or ping, like you describe

smarty666

It might be valve chatter or a bad spark plug, I don't know. I have a video of this stuff saved on my digital camera but maxima.org is being a pain in the butt about uploading it.

Its the normal knocking/pinging you hear sometimes once you've turned your engine off in the garage when its cooling down but this is happen while the engine is running and at idle. The longer the engine is on, the worse it gets!

STARR

iTrader: (1)

The guy on freshally has had the same knock/ping on several new maximas, so go figure.

The cool down noises, but while running, that is an odd one, I know the oil dripping back into the pan is a weird noise, and the exhaust cooling off, but while running and it gets louder, maybe try a local exhaust shop and see if a clap that is to small is putting strain on a pipe as it gets hotter, I am lost for what could be going on with your car, I will wait for the video, try uploading to youtube

MaxLoverAz

iTrader: (1)

I don't understand all of the emotion on the Ester Oil topic, not once for the VQ35DE or VQ35HR series has Nissan mandated the use of Ester Oil only made the recommendation.

Your inaccurate on your timing with the Ester Oil, Nissan applied for a European Patent for the oil in July 2007, it was in development for a few years before the filing. Your correct the Ester Oil was for the VVEL system in the VQ37VHR valve train but wasn't introduced after complaints it was and still is factory fill for the VHR, the ECU TSB which re-flashed the ECU actually resolved the noise, some still heard faint ticking noises which Nissan mandated the Ester Oil for all OCI to further quiet things down.

Anyway Nissan isn't becoming "rich" selling Ester Oil...

CWatson

haha this thread is never going to end, your way better off googling this type of question

smarty666

Yeah still having the noises. Had a Valvoline SuperSyn put in at the 7500 mile oil change and the heat shield/exhaust area is still making the same loud/constant knocking/pinging/clinging noises! So that means the oil did make a bit of difference. It is making the same amount of noise with the Nissan Dino Oil before 7500 as it is with the Valvoline SynPower, but I have noticed since putting in the full synthetic itself that the engine seems to be running better and making a little bit less noise. To be honest, the engine itself is very quiet and refined sounding at idle, its this stuff by the heat shield that is making it sound lousy! But, I posted this on the lubricants and fluids forum for ideas because I'd love to find out if there is some sort of additive I could put into the oil or fuel to try and at the very least reduce the amount of knocking/pinging/clinging going on down there. I don't know if I ever posted it on this thread but I have two 30 sec youtube clips of the engine idling and off with the sounds clearly heard. Most have said they have them but not to the extent that I do!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaDiOYlohzs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O1brN0Ur50

I mean, the car is making those kinds of noises constantly with top tier gasoline and a high grade full synthetic motor oil, so you tell me?

MaxLoverAz

iTrader: (1)

That is your exhaust, won't matter what oil you run as they have no correlation to this issue. My car made the same noised the first year and then stopped, I never listened to it at idle but heard it whenever I turned the car off. My Z still does since it only has 7700 miles on it.

Go to the dealer just to make sure and that it's documented in case it becomes an issue you at least got the dealer opinion.

I don't think it's anything to worry about, I hear clanking but definitely not engine pinging in your videos.

Also if you want to stop hearing the valve train at idle go to a 5W-40 weight oil I did and it's what many overseas run in the same VQ engine, and Valvoline is just a blender they aren't actually an oil company.


Want to learn a lot and if you are willing to learn about oil, additives, UOA, etc check out http://www.bobistheoilguy.com

smarty666

The majority seems to agree with that assessment as well. I know nothing is wrong with the car, but that doesn't make it any better. I do believe that its coming from the heat shield around the catalytic converter. For some reason, Nissan can not seem to design a heat shield and exhaust system enough room to expand and contract so that this metal knocking/pinging would not happen because my other luxury vehicles don't do this at all.

I'd love to find out if there is anything that can be done to the heat shield, either by moving it slightly, putting some sort of lubricant on it, etc that could, at the very least, reduce the amount of knocking/pinging/clinging so its not so loud and constant. I hope you are right and I follow your example and that maybe after a year, it will get better or go away!

Thanks for the information though, I really appreciate it!

yvnrg1981

I honestly believe that it's the filter that really protects from engine wear...short of you racing your maximas you'll never see conditions extreme enough to really breakdown even the cheapest dino or the most expensive synthetic oil. I remember reading somewhere that if you have an oil filter that filters down to 50 microns and you later get and oil filter that goes down to 40 microns...you reduce engine wear by as much as 50%. Some of the premium filters now go down to like 10 microns...so i usually get a good filter and dont worry about the oil too much...and have never had any problems. Just my 2 cents.

MaxLoverAz

iTrader: (1)

For what it's worth my 04 Honda S2000 did the same exact thing so when my Maxima made the same noises it was familiar to me.