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Old 07-07-2009, 08:25 AM   #1
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Post Why special oil for the 09 Maxima.

Reading this research helped me understand where Nissan is coming from regarding "recommended" Nissan Ester 5w30 oil.

It basically says engines with DLC coatings (like VQ35ED) have reduced friction when using oil with this additive. Its a poly-alpha-olefin (PAO) +
1% glycerol mono-oleate (GMO) combination.

I have other research showing increased friction and therefore wear of the DLC coatings when using oil with DTTP and Molydenum.

Admittedly, I don't like the cost. But I can see using an oil with the additive instead of other oils with DTTP and Mo.

Having a Max undergoing break-in, I will use their Nissan Ester oil at 1500 miles and each change until 10,000 miles. Then I'll see if I can find another oil with this additive. Yes I can use any GL4 or 5 oil of 5w30 wt just for the warranty. But if I can prevent using the warranty, I will.

Its a nice read. Enjoy and make your own determinations. I'll keep my mind open.

Hydrogen-free DLC-Coated Engine Valve Lifter
Nissan Motor Co. Ltd.,
1. Introduction
One effective way to improve the fuel economy of vehicles is to reduce the mechanical losses that occur in internal combustion engines. Reducing friction between the cam and valve lifter in a direct-acting valvetrain contributes substantially to improving fuel economy especially in the practical speed range of everyday driving. This is because such friction accounts for a large 15-20% of total engine friction in this low speed range. Since the lubrication state at the sliding surface between the cam and valve lifter is in the boundary or mixed lubrication region, smoothing their surface roughness so as to reduce their real contact area and reducing the friction coefficient at the contact points by applying a solid lubricant are effective ways of reducing friction between them. The authors have developed and applied a hydrogen-free diamond-like carbon (DLC) coating for this purpose, focusing on its smoothness, high hardness and solid lubricity effect. As a result of applying this coating to the valve lifter, it was found that friction with the cam was markedly reduced, which contributes to improved fuel economy.
2. Technical details
Figure 1 shows a cross-sectional photo of an engine cylinder head and a photo of a valve lifter coated with the hydrogen-free DLC coating. The DLC coating is applied to the valve lifter crown that slides on the cam lobe surface.
Figure 2 shows the results of pin-on-disk (POD) friction tests conducted on test pieces. It is seen that the friction coefficient declined as the hydrogen content of the DLC coating was reduced, with the lowest value being displayed by the hydrogen-free DLC coating (a-C coating). That result is attributed to the suppression of metal contact at the sliding surface owing to accelerated adsorption by the a-C coating of oiliness agents in the engine oil. Since the engine oil used in this evaluation contained many additives besides the oiliness agents, an investigation was made of the potential friction reduction obtainable with a combination of the a-C coating and oiliness agents. For that purpose, 1 wt% of glycerin-mono-oleate (GMO) was added to a synthetic poly-alphaolefin (PAO) oil as an oiliness agent to produce a prototype oil for use in conducting a POD evaluation. The results are shown by the dashed line in Fig. 2. The friction reduction effect became more pronounced with a lower hydrogen content and friction was reduced by as much as 75% compared with the result seen for a conventional 5W30 engine oil.
To confirm the friction reduction effect in an actual engine, measurements were made of the camshaft friction torque in a V6 engine and the results are shown in Fig. 3. To separate the effect of the surface roughness, the results are plotted in relation to the combined roughness of the cam and valve lifter following the test. The combination of the a-C coating and 5W30 engine oil showed the lowest level of friction torque. The result can be explained in terms of the improvement of the combined surface roughness together with the solid lubricity effect of the coating. The combination of the a-C coating and the PAO + GMO prototype oil had the effect of reducing friction by approximately 60% compared with a phosphate coating. This indicates that there is a large potential for reducing friction through further engine oil improvements.
3. Conclusion
The hydrogen-free DLC-coated valve lifter was first applied to a new V6 engine that was released in the fall of 2006, together with the use of a DLC-compatible 5W30GF4 fuel-saving engine oil. The application of this valve lifter will be expanded to other engines in the near future, and it is also planned to expand the application of the a-C coating to piston rings and other sliding parts.
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Old 07-07-2009, 02:28 PM   #2
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Dad - Thanks for the reference. Food for thought. I am a strong believer in technological progress, but have to hope Nisan will eventually find a way to bring the price of this marvelous new ester oil down to real-world prices.
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Old 07-29-2009, 10:22 PM   #3
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I agree. The free market should provide an opportunity for someone to provide the oil at a lower price.

But lets be clear.

The research did not use an "ester oil", but used a synthetic PAO oil and added their 1% ester additive package into it. That's what they were researching.

Too bad Nissan mislabelled their current offering. It should have read " Nissan Convential Oil with an Ester Additive"

I'll bet you anything that is just what it says in Japanese characters originally but some western cowboy they have reverse-translating into Engrish for the marketing department didn't get the exact translation down and just loosely translated it to " Nissan Ester Oil "
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Old 07-29-2009, 10:51 PM   #4
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Exactly how much is this oil per quart?
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:00 AM   #5
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Exactly how much is this oil per quart?


As the salesperson at Nieman-Marcus says, if you have to ask, you can't afford it.

Seriously, I have forgotten the exact price. We discussed this oil here ad nauseum last summer, again last fall, and again this past winter. All I remember is that, primarily because of the cost of this oil, oil changes using it would cost around $100. At that price, I feel those using this oil should get a 300K mile/10 year engine warranty.
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Old 07-30-2009, 11:01 AM   #6
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I do my own oil changes, so hopefully I'll be able to drop that cost down a bit. Still, that's pretty pricey. I just got my '09 last Saturday so I haven't been floating on the 7th gen forum very long.
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Old 07-30-2009, 12:23 PM   #7
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Nissan Ester oil from Courtesy Nissan $11.95.

Email from Nissan Engineering to Nissan Service Writers states that Nissan Ester oil not necessary or required.

The original use for this oil was to quiet the noise generated by the camshaft drive chains in some Nissan engines.
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Old 07-31-2009, 10:57 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gen2000 View Post
Nissan Ester oil from Courtesy Nissan $11.95.

Email from Nissan Engineering to Nissan Service Writers states that Nissan Ester oil not necessary or required.

The original use for this oil was to quiet the noise generated by the camshaft drive chains in some Nissan engines.
Great info, thank you.
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Old 08-02-2009, 12:30 PM   #9
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Life expectancy of coatings? Special Filter?

So in a brief read of the info Dad, I saw no note on the expected life of the DLC coatings? Any filtration do or don'ts you know of?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad View Post
Reading this research helped me understand where Nissan is coming from regarding "recommended" Nissan Ester 5w30 oil.


It basically says engines with DLC coatings (like VQ35ED) have reduced friction when using oil with this additive. Its a poly-alpha-olefin (PAO) +
1% glycerol mono-oleate (GMO) combination.

I have other research showing increased friction and therefore wear of the DLC coatings when using oil with DTTP and Molydenum.

Admittedly, I don't like the cost. But I can see using an oil with the additive instead of other oils with DTTP and Mo.

Having a Max undergoing break-in, I will use their Nissan Ester oil at 1500 miles and each change until 10,000 miles. Then I'll see if I can find another oil with this additive. Yes I can use any GL4 or 5 oil of 5w30 wt just for the warranty. But if I can prevent using the warranty, I will.

Its a nice read. Enjoy and make your own determinations. I'll keep my mind open.

Hydrogen-free DLC-Coated Engine Valve Lifter
Nissan Motor Co. Ltd.,
1. Introduction
One effective way to improve the fuel economy of vehicles is to reduce the mechanical losses that occur in internal combustion engines. Reducing friction between the cam and valve lifter in a direct-acting valvetrain contributes substantially to improving fuel economy especially in the practical speed range of everyday driving. This is because such friction accounts for a large 15-20% of total engine friction in this low speed range. Since the lubrication state at the sliding surface between the cam and valve lifter is in the boundary or mixed lubrication region, smoothing their surface roughness so as to reduce their real contact area and reducing the friction coefficient at the contact points by applying a solid lubricant are effective ways of reducing friction between them. The authors have developed and applied a hydrogen-free diamond-like carbon (DLC) coating for this purpose, focusing on its smoothness, high hardness and solid lubricity effect. As a result of applying this coating to the valve lifter, it was found that friction with the cam was markedly reduced, which contributes to improved fuel economy.
2. Technical details
Figure 1 shows a cross-sectional photo of an engine cylinder head and a photo of a valve lifter coated with the hydrogen-free DLC coating. The DLC coating is applied to the valve lifter crown that slides on the cam lobe surface.
Figure 2 shows the results of pin-on-disk (POD) friction tests conducted on test pieces. It is seen that the friction coefficient declined as the hydrogen content of the DLC coating was reduced, with the lowest value being displayed by the hydrogen-free DLC coating (a-C coating). That result is attributed to the suppression of metal contact at the sliding surface owing to accelerated adsorption by the a-C coating of oiliness agents in the engine oil. Since the engine oil used in this evaluation contained many additives besides the oiliness agents, an investigation was made of the potential friction reduction obtainable with a combination of the a-C coating and oiliness agents. For that purpose, 1 wt% of glycerin-mono-oleate (GMO) was added to a synthetic poly-alphaolefin (PAO) oil as an oiliness agent to produce a prototype oil for use in conducting a POD evaluation. The results are shown by the dashed line in Fig. 2. The friction reduction effect became more pronounced with a lower hydrogen content and friction was reduced by as much as 75% compared with the result seen for a conventional 5W30 engine oil.
To confirm the friction reduction effect in an actual engine, measurements were made of the camshaft friction torque in a V6 engine and the results are shown in Fig. 3. To separate the effect of the surface roughness, the results are plotted in relation to the combined roughness of the cam and valve lifter following the test. The combination of the a-C coating and 5W30 engine oil showed the lowest level of friction torque. The result can be explained in terms of the improvement of the combined surface roughness together with the solid lubricity effect of the coating. The combination of the a-C coating and the PAO + GMO prototype oil had the effect of reducing friction by approximately 60% compared with a phosphate coating. This indicates that there is a large potential for reducing friction through further engine oil improvements.
3. Conclusion

The hydrogen-free DLC-coated valve lifter was first applied to a new V6 engine that was released in the fall of 2006, together with the use of a DLC-compatible 5W30GF4 fuel-saving engine oil. The application of this valve lifter will be expanded to other engines in the near future, and it is also planned to expand the application of the a-C coating to piston rings and other sliding parts.
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Old 08-02-2009, 02:20 PM   #10
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So in a brief read of the info Dad, I saw no note on the expected life of the DLC coatings? Any filtration do or don'ts you know of?
Unknown life expectancy. But if the research shows synthetic with ester cuts friction at these coated parts by what, 60%?, then I'm game to cut the friction. Otherhand I do not use oil with DTTP or molydenum additives as they chew up the coatings.

Interesting how Nissan chose to use a dino oil with their additive.

And since the ester additive may get caught up in an oil filter, I don't use one.

Just makes good sense.
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Old 08-02-2009, 07:19 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad View Post
Unknown life expectancy. But if the research shows synthetic with ester cuts friction at these coated parts by what, 60%?, then I'm game to cut the friction. Otherhand I do not use oil with DTTP or molydenum additives as they chew up the coatings.

Interesting how Nissan chose to use a dino oil with their additive.

And since the ester additive may get caught up in an oil filter, I don't use one.

Just makes good sense.
Most synthetics have moly additives. What Synthetic do you plan to use if your not going to use Nissan Ester?
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Old 08-03-2009, 09:59 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by MaxLoverAz View Post
Most synthetics have moly additives. What Synthetic do you plan to use if your not going to use Nissan Ester?
MaxLoverAz
what oil are you using, Im pretty sure I read that the Ester is recommended for the 09 Max and 370Z.
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Old 08-03-2009, 06:51 PM   #13
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MaxLoverAz
what oil are you using, Im pretty sure I read that the Ester is recommended for the 09 Max and 370Z.
AMSOIL Signature Series 0W-30 in my Max with the AMSOIL filter. Only have 1400 miles on the 370Z.
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Old 08-03-2009, 06:52 PM   #14
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MaxLoverAz
what oil are you using, Im pretty sure I read that the Ester is recommended for the 09 Max and 370Z.
Yes it's recommended your correct...
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Old 08-03-2009, 10:11 PM   #15
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Thank you, for both replies
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Old 08-03-2009, 10:45 PM   #16
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I have my first oil change scheduled for tomorrow and I will post what they put into my car.

The oil the dealer used was 5W-30 Quaker State synthetic blend.

I will be swapping over to Mobil 1 full synthetic when I change the oil next time.

Last edited by 2young2retire; 08-04-2009 at 07:58 PM..
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Old 08-04-2009, 09:50 PM   #17
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I have my first oil change scheduled for tomorrow and I will post what they put into my car.

The oil the dealer used was 5W-30 Quaker State synthetic blend.

I will be swapping over to Mobil 1 full synthetic when I change the oil next time.
All oils today are blends and Quaker State Synthetic is a very good oil, as is M1 one of my favorite, if you do change to M1 make sure you use the Eurospec M1 0W-40 and NOT the EP garbage. https://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English...l_1_0W-40.aspx

If you want to learn more and see what oils work very well in this engine (VQ35DE) go to this link: http://my350z.com/forum/engine-and-d...-and-info.html

There’s not one “best” oil. There are several oils that have consistently performed well in the VQ engine, according to Used Oil Analysis results. Select one of these oils to use, and avoid the poorer performing oils.

This is a thread that not only explains oil and is very well written but we also post our Used Oil Analysis (UOA) results so everyone can learn what oil works well in this specific engine. M1 0W-40 works great in this engine, the EP no so good....

Cheers!
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Old 08-05-2009, 01:19 AM   #18
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2young2retire - MaxLoverAz bringing all the good poop on synthetic oils. I have talked with the service managers at the three dealers nearest me, and, unless the car is under some sort of lease agreement or pre-paid maintenance agreement, or unless instructed otherwise by the customer, these three dealers use Shell dino oil when doing oil changes. May I ask what your dealer charged for your oil change?


Although not quite as slick or long-lasting as synthetic, dino oils meet all warranty requirements, and I have driven engines over 200,000 miles on nothing but dino oil with no problems whatsoever. My favorite dino oil is Castrol GTX.
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Old 08-05-2009, 10:50 AM   #19
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2young2retire - MaxLoverAz bringing all the good poop on synthetic oils. I have talked with the service managers at the three dealers nearest me, and, unless the car is under some sort of lease agreement or pre-paid maintenance agreement, or unless instructed otherwise by the customer, these three dealers use Shell dino oil when doing oil changes. May I ask what your dealer charged for your oil change?


Although not quite as slick or long-lasting as synthetic, dino oils meet all warranty requirements, and I have driven engines over 200,000 miles on nothing but dino oil with no problems whatsoever. My favorite dino oil is Castrol GTX.

The oil change was "free for nothing" as the dealer agreed to do the first oil change for me and they did use the larger 9E000 filter. On the minus side the metal strip with MAXIMA on it on the door sill now has several scratches. The dealer has ordered another one and will have it installed the next time I am in the area.

I have used the off the shelf Mobil 1 in all my cars for the past 20 years or so changing at 5000 miles. I will have to do a little more investigating before I use it in my new Max. The Eurospec type seems to be the way to go but now I will have to find it locally.

Decisions, decisions, decisions.
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Old 08-05-2009, 07:25 PM   #20
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I'm really torn on this Ester vs. non-Ester issue. I've got almost 2K on mine...changed it myself at 1,200 and put Castrol GTX 5W-30 in it...was pretty much convinced that I would run that for the life of it. Now, after reading this thread and a couple others, I'm kind of up in the air again. Bottom line is I'm the kind of guy that wants to do the absolute best for my car, even if that option is pricey. Now having said that...$12/quart...WOW!! I'm looking forward to other comments on the subject because I'm ready to make a decision on this and move on.
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Old 08-05-2009, 10:59 PM   #21
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2young2retire - MaxLoverAz bringing all the good poop on synthetic oils. I have talked with the service managers at the three dealers nearest me, and, unless the car is under some sort of lease agreement or pre-paid maintenance agreement, or unless instructed otherwise by the customer, these three dealers use Shell dino oil when doing oil changes. May I ask what your dealer charged for your oil change?


Although not quite as slick or long-lasting as synthetic, dino oils meet all warranty requirements, and I have driven engines over 200,000 miles on nothing but dino oil with no problems whatsoever. My favorite dino oil is Castrol GTX.
Yes GTX has achieved excellent results with this engine, it performs very well according to the UOA's....
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Old 08-05-2009, 11:01 PM   #22
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I'm really torn on this Ester vs. non-Ester issue. I've got almost 2K on mine...changed it myself at 1,200 and put Castrol GTX 5W-30 in it...was pretty much convinced that I would run that for the life of it. Now, after reading this thread and a couple others, I'm kind of up in the air again. Bottom line is I'm the kind of guy that wants to do the absolute best for my car, even if that option is pricey. Now having said that...$12/quart...WOW!! I'm looking forward to other comments on the subject because I'm ready to make a decision on this and move on.
Don't be GTX is fine, the ester oil was really engineered for the VQ37HR valvetrain, yes we do share some of it but not all I won't bore you with the specifics. Unless you hear the dreaded G37/370Z clatter at idle I wouldn't worry about using GTX it's great in this engine.
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