Just a little something for CFster (OIL)
02-26-2002, 01:58 PM
#1
Just a little something for CFster (OIL)
Just something I just saw that reminded me of you. Not really to continue the dicussion or anything. But your thoughts would be appreciated.
Group: Members
Posts: 14
Joined: Feb. 2002
Posted: Feb. 08 2002,6:31
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Friends.....
I posted this on another AMSOIL message board earlier as a response to the API question. In case you didn't catch that discussion here is the Companies position on the API certification issue. Is API important? Yes, for sub one dollar oils. For premium synthetics that would blow away the tests, not really. Remember cheap $.88 Wal-Mart oil passes API, they set pretty low standards for passing the tests. Ronbo
AMSOIL API Licensing
Q. Why aren't all AMSOIL motor oils API licensed
A. Good question. AMSOIL staffers have recently read some message boards with misinformation regarding this issue. Let us address API licensing in depth, as well as the issue of warranties. Some AMSOIL motor oils are API licensed, some are not. If you're concerned about your warranty and feel pressures to use an API licensed oil, even after reading this answer, then the 5W-30 (XLF) or 10W-30 (XLT) XL-7500 or our 15W-40 (PCO) API licensed oils should be your choice. If you are looking for an alternative to frequent oil changes or just want the best performing oil for your car, then one of our top tier non-API licensed synthetic oils are for you. Read on, and decide for yourself.
API Licensing - Passenger Cars - What is it?
An API (American Petroleum Institute) license indicates that a specific motor oil formulation has passed the minimum performance standards as defined by a series of laboratory bench, physical, chemical and engine tests. These tests were selected and minimum performance standards were set by the API Lubricants Committee to address specific areas such as engine wear, deposits, fuel economy, emissions, etc. The committee is comprised of representatives from automobile, oil and additive companies. The current specification is SJ/GF-2, and in July 2001 the first use of SL/GF-3 will begin.
Costs
The cost for running a test program for a single passenger car motor oil formulation is from 125 thousand to 300 thousand, depending on if the formula passes the tests the first time through or requires multiple test runs or formula modifications to achieve a passing average. (That amount goes to 275 thousand to 500 thousand for a Heavy Duty Diesel licensing program on a specific formula.) Once that testing is complete and the formula has passed all of the minimum requirements, it can be licensed for 825 per year for non-members and 625 per year for members. There is also a small royalty fee per gallon sold for all gallons over one million. The length of time between new specifications is now approximately 2 to 3 years, which does not allow a great deal of time to recover testing costs.
Who Licenses What Formulas?
Additive companies, such as Lubrizol, Ethyl,, Infinium and Oronite, develop licensed formulas that they offer to oil companies to re-license. It is inexpensive to re-license one of these formulas, and the majority of oil companies choose to do this to avoid the costs associated with testing. This, however, tends to commoditize the market. The same chemistry is being sold under many brand names. Most of the major oil companies do have their own proprietary formulas developed, tested and licensed. All of AMSOIL INC.'s lubricant formulas are unique and proprietary.
Flexibility In Manufacturing An API Licensed Formula
API licensing was originally developed for mineral based oils, and it affords these oils more flexibility than synthetic oils.
Mineral oils comprised of group I and Group II petroleum basestocks may use a simple program called basestock interchange for added flexibility in manufacturing and purchasing. Interchange means that by completing the proper paperwork and running a few minor engine tests an oil company can choose to buy these petroleum basestocks from many different suppliers. This ensures adequate supply and competitive pricing. However, basestock interchange for Group III and V synthetic basestocks is not allowed. For example, if a formula was tested with an ester (Group V) basestock from a specific supplier, then anyone blending that formula must buy only that supplier's ester. Complete engine testing would need to be performed on the formula using another supplier's ester before an oil company could buy it from that alternative supplier. This additional testing is normally not performed because of the associated costs. This inflexibility makes it very difficult for synthetic lubricant manufacturers to negotiate prices with synthetic basestock suppliers. Click HERE for more information about Group I through Group V basestocks.
There is also something called viscosity grade read-across. Fortunately, this applies to both petroleum and synthetic basestocks although the better cold temperature performance of synthetics makes it more difficult to achieve in some situations. (That's another whole story.) What this means is that if you properly formulate the lubricant for which you have run all of the API tests, there are guidelines that allow you to use that same formula to make 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30, etc. viscosity motor oil.
Finally, there is a rule for substitutions in the CMA (Chemical Manufacturers Association) code of practice that allows a small degree of flexibility for all formulas. It allows a company to change the percentages of components in the formula by varying amounts from the original formula with limited testing and paperwork requirements. For example, if the licensed formula used 10% of a certain V.I. improver, you would have the ability to utilize from 9% to 11% of the same V.I. improver for your formula.
Key Limitations For API Licensed Formulas
Phosphorous content - .10% maximum
(API SL; 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30 viscosity grades, only)
NOACK volatility - 15% maximum
Click HERE for an explanation of NOACK Volatility
The prevalent sources of phosphorous in motor oils are additives called zinc dithiophosphates (ZDTPs). Currently, these versatile additives act as oxidation/corrosion inhibitors and aid in the ability of a lubricant to reduce wear. The automobile manufacturers, however, have demanded that lubricants contain a maximum of only .10% phosphorous. Their reason is that some manufacturers believe that higher phosphorous content levels will poison the catalytic converters on their cars before they reach 150,000 miles, which is the number of miles that their vehicles will be required to pass EPA emission standards. There has not been total agreement within the automotive and lubrication industry about whether phosphorous levels over .10% actually do harm catalytic converters in the long run. What they have failed to make allowances for is the NOACK volatility of an oil.
The maximum allowable NOACK volatility percentage for the new SL/GF-3 passenger car motor oil specification is 15%. Most of AMSOIL motor oils are in the 5% to 8% NOACK volatility range. Studies have shown there is a correlation between NOACK volatility, oil consumption and the amount of phosphorous from motor oil that will end up in the exhaust gasses. Therefore, oils with higher levels of phosphorous but with low volatility, such as AMSOIL motor oils, present no more risk to catalytic converters than low phosphorous oils with higher NOACK volatility. This has also been demonstrated for years in actual application through state mandated exhaust gas testing on our Dealers' and customers' high mileage vehicles using AMSOIL synthetic motor oils. State inspectors are continually amazed at the low emissions levels generated by vehicles using AMSOIL products. So much for poisoning catalytic converters.
AMSOIL INC. has determined that the reduced wear and extended drain intervals achievable with phosphorous levels higher than the API limit of .10% are real benefits for the consumer, and pose no risk to catalytic converters. AMSOIL motor oils, except for the API licensed XL-7500 5W-30 and 10W-30 viscosity grades, all have greater than .10% phosphorous levels, and therefore, cannot be API licensed.
Why Some AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils Are API Licensed And Some Are Not
1. Full API licensing puts AMSOIL INC. in an inflexible position. Not only would we find it necessary to buy formula components from specific vendors and be at the mercy of their pricing, we would not be able to make any major improvements to the lubricant formulas for 2 to 3 years, without new testing and the associated costs. To solve this problem, the API must establish basestock interchange guidelines for synthetic basestocks just as they have for other basestocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too.
2. Full API licensing would impose strict phosphorous limitations on our motor oils. This limitation is the main reason most AMSOIL motor oils are not API licensed. AMSOIL INC. currently disagrees with this limitation and feels strongly that the reduced wear and longer oil and additive life achieved through higher levels of properly balanced phosphorous content is more important than the arbitrary API phosphorous limit that does not give any consideration to the NOACK volatility level of an oil. When chemistry is developed that will provide superior engine wear protection with reduced phosphorous levels, or Noack volatility considerations are put in place, then the phosphorous level will become a non-issue.
Group: Members
Posts: 14
Joined: Feb. 2002
Posted: Feb. 08 2002,6:31
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Friends.....
I posted this on another AMSOIL message board earlier as a response to the API question. In case you didn't catch that discussion here is the Companies position on the API certification issue. Is API important? Yes, for sub one dollar oils. For premium synthetics that would blow away the tests, not really. Remember cheap $.88 Wal-Mart oil passes API, they set pretty low standards for passing the tests. Ronbo
AMSOIL API Licensing
Q. Why aren't all AMSOIL motor oils API licensed
A. Good question. AMSOIL staffers have recently read some message boards with misinformation regarding this issue. Let us address API licensing in depth, as well as the issue of warranties. Some AMSOIL motor oils are API licensed, some are not. If you're concerned about your warranty and feel pressures to use an API licensed oil, even after reading this answer, then the 5W-30 (XLF) or 10W-30 (XLT) XL-7500 or our 15W-40 (PCO) API licensed oils should be your choice. If you are looking for an alternative to frequent oil changes or just want the best performing oil for your car, then one of our top tier non-API licensed synthetic oils are for you. Read on, and decide for yourself.
API Licensing - Passenger Cars - What is it?
An API (American Petroleum Institute) license indicates that a specific motor oil formulation has passed the minimum performance standards as defined by a series of laboratory bench, physical, chemical and engine tests. These tests were selected and minimum performance standards were set by the API Lubricants Committee to address specific areas such as engine wear, deposits, fuel economy, emissions, etc. The committee is comprised of representatives from automobile, oil and additive companies. The current specification is SJ/GF-2, and in July 2001 the first use of SL/GF-3 will begin.
Costs
The cost for running a test program for a single passenger car motor oil formulation is from 125 thousand to 300 thousand, depending on if the formula passes the tests the first time through or requires multiple test runs or formula modifications to achieve a passing average. (That amount goes to 275 thousand to 500 thousand for a Heavy Duty Diesel licensing program on a specific formula.) Once that testing is complete and the formula has passed all of the minimum requirements, it can be licensed for 825 per year for non-members and 625 per year for members. There is also a small royalty fee per gallon sold for all gallons over one million. The length of time between new specifications is now approximately 2 to 3 years, which does not allow a great deal of time to recover testing costs.
Who Licenses What Formulas?
Additive companies, such as Lubrizol, Ethyl,, Infinium and Oronite, develop licensed formulas that they offer to oil companies to re-license. It is inexpensive to re-license one of these formulas, and the majority of oil companies choose to do this to avoid the costs associated with testing. This, however, tends to commoditize the market. The same chemistry is being sold under many brand names. Most of the major oil companies do have their own proprietary formulas developed, tested and licensed. All of AMSOIL INC.'s lubricant formulas are unique and proprietary.
Flexibility In Manufacturing An API Licensed Formula
API licensing was originally developed for mineral based oils, and it affords these oils more flexibility than synthetic oils.
Mineral oils comprised of group I and Group II petroleum basestocks may use a simple program called basestock interchange for added flexibility in manufacturing and purchasing. Interchange means that by completing the proper paperwork and running a few minor engine tests an oil company can choose to buy these petroleum basestocks from many different suppliers. This ensures adequate supply and competitive pricing. However, basestock interchange for Group III and V synthetic basestocks is not allowed. For example, if a formula was tested with an ester (Group V) basestock from a specific supplier, then anyone blending that formula must buy only that supplier's ester. Complete engine testing would need to be performed on the formula using another supplier's ester before an oil company could buy it from that alternative supplier. This additional testing is normally not performed because of the associated costs. This inflexibility makes it very difficult for synthetic lubricant manufacturers to negotiate prices with synthetic basestock suppliers. Click HERE for more information about Group I through Group V basestocks.
There is also something called viscosity grade read-across. Fortunately, this applies to both petroleum and synthetic basestocks although the better cold temperature performance of synthetics makes it more difficult to achieve in some situations. (That's another whole story.) What this means is that if you properly formulate the lubricant for which you have run all of the API tests, there are guidelines that allow you to use that same formula to make 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30, etc. viscosity motor oil.
Finally, there is a rule for substitutions in the CMA (Chemical Manufacturers Association) code of practice that allows a small degree of flexibility for all formulas. It allows a company to change the percentages of components in the formula by varying amounts from the original formula with limited testing and paperwork requirements. For example, if the licensed formula used 10% of a certain V.I. improver, you would have the ability to utilize from 9% to 11% of the same V.I. improver for your formula.
Key Limitations For API Licensed Formulas
Phosphorous content - .10% maximum
(API SL; 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30 viscosity grades, only)
NOACK volatility - 15% maximum
Click HERE for an explanation of NOACK Volatility
The prevalent sources of phosphorous in motor oils are additives called zinc dithiophosphates (ZDTPs). Currently, these versatile additives act as oxidation/corrosion inhibitors and aid in the ability of a lubricant to reduce wear. The automobile manufacturers, however, have demanded that lubricants contain a maximum of only .10% phosphorous. Their reason is that some manufacturers believe that higher phosphorous content levels will poison the catalytic converters on their cars before they reach 150,000 miles, which is the number of miles that their vehicles will be required to pass EPA emission standards. There has not been total agreement within the automotive and lubrication industry about whether phosphorous levels over .10% actually do harm catalytic converters in the long run. What they have failed to make allowances for is the NOACK volatility of an oil.
The maximum allowable NOACK volatility percentage for the new SL/GF-3 passenger car motor oil specification is 15%. Most of AMSOIL motor oils are in the 5% to 8% NOACK volatility range. Studies have shown there is a correlation between NOACK volatility, oil consumption and the amount of phosphorous from motor oil that will end up in the exhaust gasses. Therefore, oils with higher levels of phosphorous but with low volatility, such as AMSOIL motor oils, present no more risk to catalytic converters than low phosphorous oils with higher NOACK volatility. This has also been demonstrated for years in actual application through state mandated exhaust gas testing on our Dealers' and customers' high mileage vehicles using AMSOIL synthetic motor oils. State inspectors are continually amazed at the low emissions levels generated by vehicles using AMSOIL products. So much for poisoning catalytic converters.
AMSOIL INC. has determined that the reduced wear and extended drain intervals achievable with phosphorous levels higher than the API limit of .10% are real benefits for the consumer, and pose no risk to catalytic converters. AMSOIL motor oils, except for the API licensed XL-7500 5W-30 and 10W-30 viscosity grades, all have greater than .10% phosphorous levels, and therefore, cannot be API licensed.
Why Some AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils Are API Licensed And Some Are Not
1. Full API licensing puts AMSOIL INC. in an inflexible position. Not only would we find it necessary to buy formula components from specific vendors and be at the mercy of their pricing, we would not be able to make any major improvements to the lubricant formulas for 2 to 3 years, without new testing and the associated costs. To solve this problem, the API must establish basestock interchange guidelines for synthetic basestocks just as they have for other basestocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too.
2. Full API licensing would impose strict phosphorous limitations on our motor oils. This limitation is the main reason most AMSOIL motor oils are not API licensed. AMSOIL INC. currently disagrees with this limitation and feels strongly that the reduced wear and longer oil and additive life achieved through higher levels of properly balanced phosphorous content is more important than the arbitrary API phosphorous limit that does not give any consideration to the NOACK volatility level of an oil. When chemistry is developed that will provide superior engine wear protection with reduced phosphorous levels, or Noack volatility considerations are put in place, then the phosphorous level will become a non-issue.
02-26-2002, 01:59 PM
#2
The rest:
Warranties And API Licensed Motor Oils
Fortunately, the law does not allow manufacturers to "void your warranty" simply because of the brand of oil you use, the specifications it meets or the miles you drive between oil changes. To be specific, they cannot deny to fix your broken radio, faulty valve or cracked piston because you used an AMSOIL non-API licensed motor oil, or because you've gone more than 3000 miles since your last oil change. Denial of warranty coverage must be specifically due to an oil related failure. All courts of law will find against any manufacturer or dealership that tries these warranty shenanigans. If any automobile dealership insinuates that your warranty will be void if you use AMSOIL products or utilize extended drain intervals, let AMSOIL INC. know the name of the Dealership, the address, the owner's name and the name of the employee that made this statement. Mail to:
AMSOIL INC.
Attention: Technical Services Department
AMSOIL Building
Superior, WI 54880
or e-mail to tech@amsoil.com.
They will almost never put it in writing, but if they do, please send us a copy of that, too. Either way, we will send them a letter informing them cease the intimidation of our customers. Click HERE to read a sample letter.
Only if the oil is determined to be the direct cause of the engine problem can a manufacturer or dealership deny warranty coverage for that specific problem. In this situation the AMSOIL warranty would apply, and the AMSOIL Technical Services Department would assist you in processing your claim and in getting the vehicle repaired. That's our pledge to you. AMSOIL INC. sells millions of gallons of oil per year and warranty claims are a rare occurrence. If you ever have a warranty problem with an automobile manufacturer or dealership, AMSOIL will assist you by analyzing the problem and providing data supporting the fact that repairs should be made under the vehicle manufacturer's warranty. If this does not resolve the problem, AMSOIL will submit a claim with our insurance company and request that an adjuster have the vehicle repaired and pursue legal settlement later if necessary. The fact is there never has been an engine failure attributed to the non-performance of AMSOIL products, and we do not expect there ever will be. If it ever did, both AMSOIL and our insurance company would make certain your problem was resolved. Click HERE to see the AMSOIL Limited Warranty.
How Does AMSOIL INC. Ensure Their Products Meet Or Exceed The Minimum Specifications Of The Tests Required For API Licensing?
First, AMSOIL INC. works closely with major additive companies to select the top performing, and usually most expensive, passenger car and heavy duty diesel motor oil additives. These additives have already passed all of the API licensing requirements in a petroleum or synthetic based formulation. Then we work with the additive company to maximize the amount of additive used and to boost the additive package in selected performance areas to achieve an optimum performing additive package for reduced wear and extended drain intervals. This is unlike the vast majority of companies who, because additives are expensive, use the minimum amount of the least expensive additives required to meet the minimum API requirements.
We then utilize a blend of synthetic basestocks with known performance characteristics as a replacement for the petroleum basestocks to optimize performance in areas of lubricity, volatility, viscosity index, oxidation and nitration resistance, pour points, flash points, deposit control, soot handling, emissions, etc. We also will utilize a highly shear stable V.I. improver to ensure viscosity retention throughout extended drain intervals. This replaces the inexpensive and less shear stable V.I. improver used in the API licensed petroleum formula. We do laboratory bench tests before running field tests to verify the superiority of the synthetic formula in actual use. We also continue to monitor the performance of the oil through close scrutiny of tens of thousands of oil analysis tests per year across a wide variety of vehicles all around North America and the World. AMSOIL INC. has been collecting used synthetic oil samples from passenger cars since 1982. No other oil company has such a vast data base of the performance of synthetic lubricants over extended drain intervals.
AMSOIL INC.'s products and formulations outperform API licensed oils. They're engineered that way. Period.
Conclusion
AMSOIL INC. takes pride in never having conformed to industry norms or standards when those standards are contrary to peak performance. We introduced synthetics to the automotive world in 1972 with the first synthetic motor oil to exceed API performance specifications. At that time other manufacturers refused to recognize the superior performance of synthetic motor oils. Now, however, most companies sell synthetic lubricants, vehicles are factory filled with synthetic motor oils and gear lubes, and some manufacturers even offer extended warranties if you use synthetics. AMSOIL has always offered extended drain intervals because the oil was capable of performing for extended drains, and it was the right thing to do for the consumer. Now the entire industry is moving in that direction. Ironically, it was recently published that automotive manufacturers will be recommending extended drain intervals of up to 15,000 miles in the near future because that's what consumers want.
AMSOIL is a company of firsts. That doesn't happen by always conforming to industry norms and standards.
API licensing of lubricants is voluntary, and it ensures automobile manufacturers and consumers that the product meets a set of minimum standards. Should these standards, in the future, be raised to a level consistent with AMSOIL's standards for motor oil performance, AMSOIL will consider licensing all oils. For those that feel pressured to use an API licensed product, we have them and encourage you to use them (XLT, XLF and PCO). AMSOIL does offer better performing motor oils that are not API licensed for all of the reasons explained in this response. They provide our customers with alternatives to the commodity products typically available in the market today. If you want the convenience of extended drain intervals or the top performance from your vehicle, AMSOIL has taken time to engineer the very best money can buy.
Warranties And API Licensed Motor Oils
Fortunately, the law does not allow manufacturers to "void your warranty" simply because of the brand of oil you use, the specifications it meets or the miles you drive between oil changes. To be specific, they cannot deny to fix your broken radio, faulty valve or cracked piston because you used an AMSOIL non-API licensed motor oil, or because you've gone more than 3000 miles since your last oil change. Denial of warranty coverage must be specifically due to an oil related failure. All courts of law will find against any manufacturer or dealership that tries these warranty shenanigans. If any automobile dealership insinuates that your warranty will be void if you use AMSOIL products or utilize extended drain intervals, let AMSOIL INC. know the name of the Dealership, the address, the owner's name and the name of the employee that made this statement. Mail to:
AMSOIL INC.
Attention: Technical Services Department
AMSOIL Building
Superior, WI 54880
or e-mail to tech@amsoil.com.
They will almost never put it in writing, but if they do, please send us a copy of that, too. Either way, we will send them a letter informing them cease the intimidation of our customers. Click HERE to read a sample letter.
Only if the oil is determined to be the direct cause of the engine problem can a manufacturer or dealership deny warranty coverage for that specific problem. In this situation the AMSOIL warranty would apply, and the AMSOIL Technical Services Department would assist you in processing your claim and in getting the vehicle repaired. That's our pledge to you. AMSOIL INC. sells millions of gallons of oil per year and warranty claims are a rare occurrence. If you ever have a warranty problem with an automobile manufacturer or dealership, AMSOIL will assist you by analyzing the problem and providing data supporting the fact that repairs should be made under the vehicle manufacturer's warranty. If this does not resolve the problem, AMSOIL will submit a claim with our insurance company and request that an adjuster have the vehicle repaired and pursue legal settlement later if necessary. The fact is there never has been an engine failure attributed to the non-performance of AMSOIL products, and we do not expect there ever will be. If it ever did, both AMSOIL and our insurance company would make certain your problem was resolved. Click HERE to see the AMSOIL Limited Warranty.
How Does AMSOIL INC. Ensure Their Products Meet Or Exceed The Minimum Specifications Of The Tests Required For API Licensing?
First, AMSOIL INC. works closely with major additive companies to select the top performing, and usually most expensive, passenger car and heavy duty diesel motor oil additives. These additives have already passed all of the API licensing requirements in a petroleum or synthetic based formulation. Then we work with the additive company to maximize the amount of additive used and to boost the additive package in selected performance areas to achieve an optimum performing additive package for reduced wear and extended drain intervals. This is unlike the vast majority of companies who, because additives are expensive, use the minimum amount of the least expensive additives required to meet the minimum API requirements.
We then utilize a blend of synthetic basestocks with known performance characteristics as a replacement for the petroleum basestocks to optimize performance in areas of lubricity, volatility, viscosity index, oxidation and nitration resistance, pour points, flash points, deposit control, soot handling, emissions, etc. We also will utilize a highly shear stable V.I. improver to ensure viscosity retention throughout extended drain intervals. This replaces the inexpensive and less shear stable V.I. improver used in the API licensed petroleum formula. We do laboratory bench tests before running field tests to verify the superiority of the synthetic formula in actual use. We also continue to monitor the performance of the oil through close scrutiny of tens of thousands of oil analysis tests per year across a wide variety of vehicles all around North America and the World. AMSOIL INC. has been collecting used synthetic oil samples from passenger cars since 1982. No other oil company has such a vast data base of the performance of synthetic lubricants over extended drain intervals.
AMSOIL INC.'s products and formulations outperform API licensed oils. They're engineered that way. Period.
Conclusion
AMSOIL INC. takes pride in never having conformed to industry norms or standards when those standards are contrary to peak performance. We introduced synthetics to the automotive world in 1972 with the first synthetic motor oil to exceed API performance specifications. At that time other manufacturers refused to recognize the superior performance of synthetic motor oils. Now, however, most companies sell synthetic lubricants, vehicles are factory filled with synthetic motor oils and gear lubes, and some manufacturers even offer extended warranties if you use synthetics. AMSOIL has always offered extended drain intervals because the oil was capable of performing for extended drains, and it was the right thing to do for the consumer. Now the entire industry is moving in that direction. Ironically, it was recently published that automotive manufacturers will be recommending extended drain intervals of up to 15,000 miles in the near future because that's what consumers want.
AMSOIL is a company of firsts. That doesn't happen by always conforming to industry norms and standards.
API licensing of lubricants is voluntary, and it ensures automobile manufacturers and consumers that the product meets a set of minimum standards. Should these standards, in the future, be raised to a level consistent with AMSOIL's standards for motor oil performance, AMSOIL will consider licensing all oils. For those that feel pressured to use an API licensed product, we have them and encourage you to use them (XLT, XLF and PCO). AMSOIL does offer better performing motor oils that are not API licensed for all of the reasons explained in this response. They provide our customers with alternatives to the commodity products typically available in the market today. If you want the convenience of extended drain intervals or the top performance from your vehicle, AMSOIL has taken time to engineer the very best money can buy.
02-26-2002, 04:02 PM
#5
http://66.186.215.175/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?
I think you owe me 10 free cases of X2000 10w30.
I think you owe me 10 free cases of X2000 10w30.
Originally posted by iwannabmw
I've been seeing that post pop up a lot lately on different boards. Where did you find it this time?
I've been seeing that post pop up a lot lately on different boards. Where did you find it this time?
02-26-2002, 04:17 PM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,530
Originally posted by Jeff92se
http://66.186.215.175/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?
I think you owe me 10 free cases of X2000 10w30.
http://66.186.215.175/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?
I think you owe me 10 free cases of X2000 10w30.
SuDZ
02-26-2002, 04:17 PM
#7
Originally posted by Jeff92se
http://66.186.215.175/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?
I think you owe me 10 free cases of X2000 10w30.
http://66.186.215.175/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?
I think you owe me 10 free cases of X2000 10w30.
You actually get it for the same price I do anyway.
02-26-2002, 08:18 PM
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 284
Jeez, I had to bring my dinner over to the computer to read that.
This looks like an expanded copy of the post you made during our discussion earlier? They make their case clearly, surely in response to people such as myself.
So Amsoil must be petitioning the API to change its standards or to introduce a new standard for synthetic oils right? It seems to be a thorn in their side. That symbol is very prominent in every owners manual of every car out there. Myself, I assume the API knows its stuff, since it is comprised of the auto makers (including Nissan). Amsoil says that aside from their low NOACK volatility the API restricts their ability to develop and improve their oils as often as they would like. Maybe something I would say if I wanted the consumer to believe that I was improving my product more than the other guy?
I can't speak for the costs - they know better than I, but I figure if every other synthetic oil manufacturer can afford it so can they.
On another note, I wonder what Toyota would do if you brought a sludged up V6 in for warranty. Right now they have a major problem and are looking for a way out - such as proof of regular service. What if I brought in my proof of service with Amsoil from 20K ago? Would they still cover me? Probably not - I hope Amsoil does. We are currently having problems at the auction I work at - we're losing money on these things because we can't prove the service history of the vehicles. There are other examples, such as Honda giving people a hard time if they don't find a Honda factory oil filter installed. Hey, the law says you don't have to have your car serviced at the dealer but sometimes the manufacturers don't seem to care. Could you win the case in a court room? Sure. Would it cost a lot of time and money? Maybe...
Oh man, I don't want to get into this again...
This looks like an expanded copy of the post you made during our discussion earlier? They make their case clearly, surely in response to people such as myself.
So Amsoil must be petitioning the API to change its standards or to introduce a new standard for synthetic oils right? It seems to be a thorn in their side. That symbol is very prominent in every owners manual of every car out there. Myself, I assume the API knows its stuff, since it is comprised of the auto makers (including Nissan). Amsoil says that aside from their low NOACK volatility the API restricts their ability to develop and improve their oils as often as they would like. Maybe something I would say if I wanted the consumer to believe that I was improving my product more than the other guy?
I can't speak for the costs - they know better than I, but I figure if every other synthetic oil manufacturer can afford it so can they.
On another note, I wonder what Toyota would do if you brought a sludged up V6 in for warranty. Right now they have a major problem and are looking for a way out - such as proof of regular service. What if I brought in my proof of service with Amsoil from 20K ago? Would they still cover me? Probably not - I hope Amsoil does. We are currently having problems at the auction I work at - we're losing money on these things because we can't prove the service history of the vehicles. There are other examples, such as Honda giving people a hard time if they don't find a Honda factory oil filter installed. Hey, the law says you don't have to have your car serviced at the dealer but sometimes the manufacturers don't seem to care. Could you win the case in a court room? Sure. Would it cost a lot of time and money? Maybe...
Oh man, I don't want to get into this again...
02-26-2002, 08:44 PM
#10
Haha! Dinner! Yeah by no means did I want to start another flame. I've seen your posts and you certianly contribute so I figure I take a better attitude about it
I sympathize with you. I also own a RX300 and I now watch my oil pretty closely. I hope you can get your problems w/ the Toyota sludge cleared. On www.clublexus.com there are two threads that address this. One is a post that I came across. I get it for you. It might help you w/ your issues. It's a lady w/ a Sienna.
http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=38302
Hmm there was more but I guess the poster took it down for legal issues. He was in the middle of a (sucesfull) battle with Lexus to get his engine replaced.
I sympathize with you. I also own a RX300 and I now watch my oil pretty closely. I hope you can get your problems w/ the Toyota sludge cleared. On www.clublexus.com there are two threads that address this. One is a post that I came across. I get it for you. It might help you w/ your issues. It's a lady w/ a Sienna.
http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=38302
Hmm there was more but I guess the poster took it down for legal issues. He was in the middle of a (sucesfull) battle with Lexus to get his engine replaced.
Originally posted by CFster
On another note, I wonder what Toyota would do if you brought a sludged up V6 in for warranty. Right now they have a major problem and are looking for a way out - such as proof of regular service. What if I brought in my proof of service with Amsoil from 20K ago? Would they still cover me? Probably not - I hope Amsoil does. We are currently having problems at the auction I work at - we're losing money on these things because we can't prove the service history of the vehicles. There are other examples, such as Honda giving people a hard time if they don't find a Honda factory oil filter installed. Hey, the law says you don't have to have your car serviced at the dealer but sometimes the manufacturers don't seem to care. Could you win the case in a court room? Sure. Would it cost a lot of time and money? Maybe...
Oh man, I don't want to get into this again...
On another note, I wonder what Toyota would do if you brought a sludged up V6 in for warranty. Right now they have a major problem and are looking for a way out - such as proof of regular service. What if I brought in my proof of service with Amsoil from 20K ago? Would they still cover me? Probably not - I hope Amsoil does. We are currently having problems at the auction I work at - we're losing money on these things because we can't prove the service history of the vehicles. There are other examples, such as Honda giving people a hard time if they don't find a Honda factory oil filter installed. Hey, the law says you don't have to have your car serviced at the dealer but sometimes the manufacturers don't seem to care. Could you win the case in a court room? Sure. Would it cost a lot of time and money? Maybe...
Oh man, I don't want to get into this again...
02-26-2002, 09:03 PM
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 284
Thanks for the linkage - I didn't know the 4 cylinders were involved too - there's certainly a lot of them out there.
Yeah I think I posted in another thread that I took off a valve cover on an Avalon or something with 20K on it and there was a block of sludge the same shape as the valve cover.
This whole thing just came as a suprise to me, as I always thought they were flat out the smoothest and quietest running sixes out there.
Yeah I think I posted in another thread that I took off a valve cover on an Avalon or something with 20K on it and there was a block of sludge the same shape as the valve cover.
This whole thing just came as a suprise to me, as I always thought they were flat out the smoothest and quietest running sixes out there.
02-27-2002, 08:21 AM
#12
Originally posted by Jeff92se
I must say Ron is a little odd though.
I must say Ron is a little odd though.
Buried in that article about the Toyota was a small one line comment about the only way to prevent the sludge build up was to use a full synthetic. I would think that since you seem to support Amsoil you would okay on your RX300.
CFster, that's a good point about having to fight the auto manufacturers even when everyone knows they are wrong. What are the odds most people have the time and money to really pursue the matter in court? I can't speak as to what Amsoil would do in a similar case, but I know they have said that they have never had a customer use their warranty to date.
02-27-2002, 12:41 PM
#13
Member
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 70
Originally posted by CFster
Thanks for the linkage - I didn't know the 4 cylinders were involved too - there's certainly a lot of them out there.
Yeah I think I posted in another thread that I took off a valve cover on an Avalon or something with 20K on it and there was a block of sludge the same shape as the valve cover.
This whole thing just came as a suprise to me, as I always thought they were flat out the smoothest and quietest running sixes out there.
Thanks for the linkage - I didn't know the 4 cylinders were involved too - there's certainly a lot of them out there.
Yeah I think I posted in another thread that I took off a valve cover on an Avalon or something with 20K on it and there was a block of sludge the same shape as the valve cover.
This whole thing just came as a suprise to me, as I always thought they were flat out the smoothest and quietest running sixes out there.
04-01-2002, 06:19 AM
#14
Newbie - Just Registered
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 8
Amsoil Backs us dealers up....
on legal issues related engine failures. Or at least they claim that they do.
I am a newbie on this board as I have recently learned of Bill's oil analysis spread sheet. I think MDsynthetics advised me of it as he has been reading on bimmerforums where I spend a lot of time. I think Bill's work is great and will continue to participate with my extended drain info on my BMW.
I am glad someone posted Amsoil's official comments about API certification. It is pointless to see people bickering over semantics if they have not read this very logical sounding report. On the other hand, I am somewhat surpirsed that Asmoil did so well in defining their position on API standards but does not seem to emphasize the qualifcations to the 25000 mile drain interval capapbility.
There is one thing I always tell people about extended drains, one thing that experts agree on, and one thing that we as semi-knowledgable enthusiasts absolutely must pass on to anyone interested in extended drains, Oil Analysis is absolutely necessary if you plan to do extended drains past 8000-10000 miles. Bill's data clearly shows that every car and every driving style is different. I have seen one report where a guy in a Volkswagen VR6 literally wore out his Mobil-1 in 4000 miles!!!!! Oil analysis is imperitive and it is up to us to spread the word and educate those we come in contact with..
Keep up the good work guys,
Don
www.lubedealer.com/dstevens
I am a newbie on this board as I have recently learned of Bill's oil analysis spread sheet. I think MDsynthetics advised me of it as he has been reading on bimmerforums where I spend a lot of time. I think Bill's work is great and will continue to participate with my extended drain info on my BMW.
I am glad someone posted Amsoil's official comments about API certification. It is pointless to see people bickering over semantics if they have not read this very logical sounding report. On the other hand, I am somewhat surpirsed that Asmoil did so well in defining their position on API standards but does not seem to emphasize the qualifcations to the 25000 mile drain interval capapbility.
There is one thing I always tell people about extended drains, one thing that experts agree on, and one thing that we as semi-knowledgable enthusiasts absolutely must pass on to anyone interested in extended drains, Oil Analysis is absolutely necessary if you plan to do extended drains past 8000-10000 miles. Bill's data clearly shows that every car and every driving style is different. I have seen one report where a guy in a Volkswagen VR6 literally wore out his Mobil-1 in 4000 miles!!!!! Oil analysis is imperitive and it is up to us to spread the word and educate those we come in contact with..
Keep up the good work guys,
Don
www.lubedealer.com/dstevens
04-01-2002, 06:34 AM
#15
Re: Amsoil Backs us dealers up....
Originally posted by Don Stevens
on legal issues related engine failures. Or at least they claim that they do.
I am a newbie on this board as I have recently learned of Bill's oil analysis spread sheet. I think MDsynthetics advised me of it as he has been reading on bimmerforums where I spend a lot of time. I think Bill's work is great and will continue to participate with my extended drain info on my BMW.
I am glad someone posted Amsoil's official comments about API certification. It is pointless to see people bickering over semantics if they have not read this very logical sounding report. On the other hand, I am somewhat surpirsed that Asmoil did so well in defining their position on API standards but does not seem to emphasize the qualifcations to the 25000 mile drain interval capapbility.
There is one thing I always tell people about extended drains, one thing that experts agree on, and one thing that we as semi-knowledgable enthusiasts absolutely must pass on to anyone interested in extended drains, Oil Analysis is absolutely necessary if you plan to do extended drains past 8000-10000 miles. Bill's data clearly shows that every car and every driving style is different. I have seen one report where a guy in a Volkswagen VR6 literally wore out his Mobil-1 in 4000 miles!!!!! Oil analysis is imperitive and it is up to us to spread the word and educate those we come in contact with..
Keep up the good work guys,
Don
www.lubedealer.com/dstevens
on legal issues related engine failures. Or at least they claim that they do.
I am a newbie on this board as I have recently learned of Bill's oil analysis spread sheet. I think MDsynthetics advised me of it as he has been reading on bimmerforums where I spend a lot of time. I think Bill's work is great and will continue to participate with my extended drain info on my BMW.
I am glad someone posted Amsoil's official comments about API certification. It is pointless to see people bickering over semantics if they have not read this very logical sounding report. On the other hand, I am somewhat surpirsed that Asmoil did so well in defining their position on API standards but does not seem to emphasize the qualifcations to the 25000 mile drain interval capapbility.
There is one thing I always tell people about extended drains, one thing that experts agree on, and one thing that we as semi-knowledgable enthusiasts absolutely must pass on to anyone interested in extended drains, Oil Analysis is absolutely necessary if you plan to do extended drains past 8000-10000 miles. Bill's data clearly shows that every car and every driving style is different. I have seen one report where a guy in a Volkswagen VR6 literally wore out his Mobil-1 in 4000 miles!!!!! Oil analysis is imperitive and it is up to us to spread the word and educate those we come in contact with..
Keep up the good work guys,
Don
www.lubedealer.com/dstevens
Don,
Thanks for registering with us and your post. Hopefully we can draw from your experiences as well with the spreadsheet that I am working on updating with your results.
04-01-2002, 06:44 AM
#16
Re: Amsoil Backs us dealers up....
Hi Don,
Welcome to Maxima.org
On this forum we definitely have some "heated" discussions about oil and I'm sure you're experiences will be able to contribute to them in a positive way.
It's nice to see that my posts on some of the other boards actually accomplish my goal of getting people to think and research a little more on the the topic of oil, instead of relying on all the old myths floating around out there. I'm sure the article in the recent Roundel prompted a lot of people to question these old wive's tales as well.
I'm sure Bill will be glad to have another manufacturer represented in his spreadsheet. I for one am interested to see how well BMW's filters perform with some extended drain intervals.
Welcome to Maxima.org
On this forum we definitely have some "heated" discussions about oil and I'm sure you're experiences will be able to contribute to them in a positive way.
It's nice to see that my posts on some of the other boards actually accomplish my goal of getting people to think and research a little more on the the topic of oil, instead of relying on all the old myths floating around out there. I'm sure the article in the recent Roundel prompted a lot of people to question these old wive's tales as well.
I'm sure Bill will be glad to have another manufacturer represented in his spreadsheet. I for one am interested to see how well BMW's filters perform with some extended drain intervals.
04-01-2002, 06:55 AM
#17
Re: Re: Amsoil Backs us dealers up....
Originally posted by iwannabmw
I'm sure Bill will be glad to have another manufacturer represented in his spreadsheet. I for one am interested to see how well BMW's filters perform with some extended drain intervals.
I'm sure Bill will be glad to have another manufacturer represented in his spreadsheet. I for one am interested to see how well BMW's filters perform with some extended drain intervals.
We've been e-mailing each other for a while now.....he's given me 6 analysis results thus far......
04-01-2002, 07:03 AM
#18
Re: Re: Re: Amsoil Backs us dealers up....
Originally posted by bill99gxe
We've been e-mailing each other for a while now.....he's given me 6 analysis results thus far......
We've been e-mailing each other for a while now.....he's given me 6 analysis results thus far......
04-01-2002, 12:00 PM
#19
Donating Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 92
Comment to Bill about extended drain
Bill,
First of all thank you for taking the time and effort to put together the oil analysis spreadsheet it't very useful information.
You are obviously a proponent of extended drain intervals.
However, your own oil analysis spreadsheet for your 99 Maxima suggest that maybe you should not be running the oil so long in your 99 Maxima.
You have already made mention of the fact that silicon is showing up high in your samples. While the Amsoil synthetic has not degraded during the interval, the accumulation of silicon (sand) is acting as abrasive. Look at your high numbers for Molybdenum. As you probably know nissan coats the pistons with this substance. The accumulated silicon may be acting as an abrasive, thereby rubbing off Moly from the pistons? Then again maybe this is left over Moly from the ULX oil you have previously used.
In any rate, if this was my car, I would not want to run the oil so long.
BTW Have you found the root cause of the silicon? Do you drive on a dusty or dirt road?
First of all thank you for taking the time and effort to put together the oil analysis spreadsheet it't very useful information.
You are obviously a proponent of extended drain intervals.
However, your own oil analysis spreadsheet for your 99 Maxima suggest that maybe you should not be running the oil so long in your 99 Maxima.
You have already made mention of the fact that silicon is showing up high in your samples. While the Amsoil synthetic has not degraded during the interval, the accumulation of silicon (sand) is acting as abrasive. Look at your high numbers for Molybdenum. As you probably know nissan coats the pistons with this substance. The accumulated silicon may be acting as an abrasive, thereby rubbing off Moly from the pistons? Then again maybe this is left over Moly from the ULX oil you have previously used.
In any rate, if this was my car, I would not want to run the oil so long.
BTW Have you found the root cause of the silicon? Do you drive on a dusty or dirt road?
04-01-2002, 02:57 PM
#20
Re: Comment to Bill about extended drain
Originally posted by maxxed
Bill,
First of all thank you for taking the time and effort to put together the oil analysis spreadsheet it't very useful information.
You are obviously a proponent of extended drain intervals.
However, your own oil analysis spreadsheet for your 99 Maxima suggest that maybe you should not be running the oil so long in your 99 Maxima.
You have already made mention of the fact that silicon is showing up high in your samples. While the Amsoil synthetic has not degraded during the interval, the accumulation of silicon (sand) is acting as abrasive. Look at your high numbers for Molybdenum. As you probably know nissan coats the pistons with this substance. The accumulated silicon may be acting as an abrasive, thereby rubbing off Moly from the pistons? Then again maybe this is left over Moly from the ULX oil you have previously used.
In any rate, if this was my car, I would not want to run the oil so long.
BTW Have you found the root cause of the silicon? Do you drive on a dusty or dirt road?
Bill,
First of all thank you for taking the time and effort to put together the oil analysis spreadsheet it't very useful information.
You are obviously a proponent of extended drain intervals.
However, your own oil analysis spreadsheet for your 99 Maxima suggest that maybe you should not be running the oil so long in your 99 Maxima.
You have already made mention of the fact that silicon is showing up high in your samples. While the Amsoil synthetic has not degraded during the interval, the accumulation of silicon (sand) is acting as abrasive. Look at your high numbers for Molybdenum. As you probably know nissan coats the pistons with this substance. The accumulated silicon may be acting as an abrasive, thereby rubbing off Moly from the pistons? Then again maybe this is left over Moly from the ULX oil you have previously used.
In any rate, if this was my car, I would not want to run the oil so long.
BTW Have you found the root cause of the silicon? Do you drive on a dusty or dirt road?
Your thoughts have mirrored mine when trying to figure out "what's wrong" with this value. I'm still stumped, and attribute it to improper VQ break-in. There are a couple of other VQs that have elevated silicon levels as well, so I'm not alone. The Moly is indeed probably from the ULX, as it had a MASSIVE amount of it. On the other hand, the intake *could* have a leak somewhere, but I have not discovered it and there haven't been any performance problems or unusual looking air filter panels when I have changed them, which I do every 6 months.
As you can see, the silicon levels were consistent whether the vehicle went 10k or 15k on an oil......I doubt changing intervals would significantly alter the silicon value.
Should I decide to keep the car past this year, it will receive a Bilstein Engine Flush and then we'll go from there to see if the problem continues......
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