RE. Dr Fuel Max ... Debunked by my Petrolium Engineer Uncle
08-17-2006, 06:17 PM
#1
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Posts: 112
RE. Dr Fuel Max ... Debunked by my Petrolium Engineer Uncle
Interesting .... I called up my uncle who has been a petroleum engineer for PetroCanada for 30 years and redirected him to that website .... 1st thing 1st quote from web site
"The Dr. Fuel Max catalyst is a series of specially formulated ceramic beads consisting of nine 100% natural oxygen-active elemental ingredients, which are encased in a unique, seamless, thermally impervious, bullet-like forged metal casing. When inserted into the fuel tank, the core of the catalyst (ceramic beads) begins a chemical chain reaction where the beads initiate a discharge of oxygen-active ions with a positive “D” electron charge, which starts by separating and breaking down the hydrogen carbons (HC). The HC as well as other dense, hard to burn molecules are converted into light, highly combustible molecules that when in contact with induced oxygen, will facilitate a phenomenal 99.86% fuel burning efficiency"
he called me back in 10 min and was laughing ..... what he said 1st ... is there is no such thing as a "D" electron or any compound that contains it ... the next thing he said is that breaking down hydrocarbons is done by fractional distillation ... a very difficult process involving ALOT of heat, almost to the point of setting the crude on fire (Flash point), there is no chemical (element rather if you want to get technical )on the planet that breaks down crude or hydrocarbons other than oxygen or NOS or any other oxydent ... when u do that ... you get "BOOOM" (hence fuel air ratio) . Lastly ... breaking gasoline into lighter hydrocarbon chains basically makes more volatile hydrocarbons like butane and propane etc ... gasoline is a bigger chain ... the reason for us running gasoline is that it evaporates at a slower rate .... anything smaller would evaporate within minutes if not seconds ... (hence having butane and propane in pressurized vessels)
He said .. any compound that breaks down gasoline "IF" it ever existed to more smaller hydrocarbon chains would, 1. be used by every oil producer on the planet to turn crude into gasoline, diesel, propane etc as making these takes loads of energy 2. evaporate so quicky after it floated to the top of your tank and begin to pressurize the air/fuel pocket ... never mixing with the liquid fuel and just escape out the gas cap. (like leaving your zippo lighter open for 1/2 hour) 3. cause huge engine damage due to preignition if the engine ran at all due to the massive volatile untimed ignition of theses less dense and low flashpoint fuels. basically the residual heat in your engines cylinders would touch this stuff off before your spark plug would fire. 4th ... your fuel pump cant pump airisols ... any fuel that is smaller molecular than the gasoline chain becomes airisol - ie a vapour - unpressurized and gasious withing seconds ... fuel mixed with arisolized propanes and butanes would cause the fuelpump to unprime due to hydrolock (liquid pumps dont pump air/vapour very well)........lastly .... any compound added to gasoline (which is already a very efficient fuel) that would be needed to enhance it, would have to be added in significant quantities (octane boost, injector cleaner comes in small bottles and needs to be applied per tank) but .... small little beads what ever the compound or device would require sufficient solublilty to permiate a full tank of gas .... not only that ..... 100's of tanks of gas ... to fullfill the warranty as stated on the web page that its good for "LIFE". The compound in 9 ceramic beads can indefintly treat 1000's of gallons of gasoline?????? and turn it into jet fuel!!!!!!!!
Im just quoting what my uncle said .. he says its another "snake oil" infomercial gimmick like the magnetic bolt on from the 80's ......I call BS on Dr. Fuel Max
"The Dr. Fuel Max catalyst is a series of specially formulated ceramic beads consisting of nine 100% natural oxygen-active elemental ingredients, which are encased in a unique, seamless, thermally impervious, bullet-like forged metal casing. When inserted into the fuel tank, the core of the catalyst (ceramic beads) begins a chemical chain reaction where the beads initiate a discharge of oxygen-active ions with a positive “D” electron charge, which starts by separating and breaking down the hydrogen carbons (HC). The HC as well as other dense, hard to burn molecules are converted into light, highly combustible molecules that when in contact with induced oxygen, will facilitate a phenomenal 99.86% fuel burning efficiency"
he called me back in 10 min and was laughing ..... what he said 1st ... is there is no such thing as a "D" electron or any compound that contains it ... the next thing he said is that breaking down hydrocarbons is done by fractional distillation ... a very difficult process involving ALOT of heat, almost to the point of setting the crude on fire (Flash point), there is no chemical (element rather if you want to get technical )on the planet that breaks down crude or hydrocarbons other than oxygen or NOS or any other oxydent ... when u do that ... you get "BOOOM" (hence fuel air ratio) . Lastly ... breaking gasoline into lighter hydrocarbon chains basically makes more volatile hydrocarbons like butane and propane etc ... gasoline is a bigger chain ... the reason for us running gasoline is that it evaporates at a slower rate .... anything smaller would evaporate within minutes if not seconds ... (hence having butane and propane in pressurized vessels)
He said .. any compound that breaks down gasoline "IF" it ever existed to more smaller hydrocarbon chains would, 1. be used by every oil producer on the planet to turn crude into gasoline, diesel, propane etc as making these takes loads of energy 2. evaporate so quicky after it floated to the top of your tank and begin to pressurize the air/fuel pocket ... never mixing with the liquid fuel and just escape out the gas cap. (like leaving your zippo lighter open for 1/2 hour) 3. cause huge engine damage due to preignition if the engine ran at all due to the massive volatile untimed ignition of theses less dense and low flashpoint fuels. basically the residual heat in your engines cylinders would touch this stuff off before your spark plug would fire. 4th ... your fuel pump cant pump airisols ... any fuel that is smaller molecular than the gasoline chain becomes airisol - ie a vapour - unpressurized and gasious withing seconds ... fuel mixed with arisolized propanes and butanes would cause the fuelpump to unprime due to hydrolock (liquid pumps dont pump air/vapour very well)........lastly .... any compound added to gasoline (which is already a very efficient fuel) that would be needed to enhance it, would have to be added in significant quantities (octane boost, injector cleaner comes in small bottles and needs to be applied per tank) but .... small little beads what ever the compound or device would require sufficient solublilty to permiate a full tank of gas .... not only that ..... 100's of tanks of gas ... to fullfill the warranty as stated on the web page that its good for "LIFE". The compound in 9 ceramic beads can indefintly treat 1000's of gallons of gasoline?????? and turn it into jet fuel!!!!!!!!
Im just quoting what my uncle said .. he says its another "snake oil" infomercial gimmick like the magnetic bolt on from the 80's ......I call BS on Dr. Fuel Max
08-17-2006, 06:59 PM
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 400
Ouch.
Pwned.
Pwned.
08-17-2006, 07:19 PM
#5
Sounds like your PETROLEUM engineer needs to learn his chemistry more betterer.
Originally Posted by Bermont
there is no such thing as a "D" electron or any compound that contains it ...
Originally Posted by Metal Maxima
I think this might be an item of translation gone wrong. The VESPR model of an atom will account for all electrons in valence shells S, P, D, and F. According to that model, the electron shells for carbon would break down into:
1s2
2s2 2p6
3s2 (accounting for all 12 electrons)
...even if such is the case, the 'D' shell could not be accounted for as you don't get into the 'D' valence shell until some base metals.
Just my $0.02
1s2
2s2 2p6
3s2 (accounting for all 12 electrons)
...even if such is the case, the 'D' shell could not be accounted for as you don't get into the 'D' valence shell until some base metals.
Just my $0.02
Originally Posted by Rowan
I'm in agreement. That was the only thing I could come up with yesterday that could possibly explain that sentence. However, as you said, it still doesn't make sense.
Using 2n squared, s shell holds 2, p shell hold 6, d shell holds 10, and f shell holds 32.
The simplest "hydrocarbon" is CH4 where carbon has 6 electrons, 2 in it's first shell and 4 in it's valence shell.
The 4 hydrogen's that it is covalently bonded to contribute 4 more electrons for a total of 8 for the molecule.
To my limited understanding, the appropriate size hydrocarbon for gas is between 4 and 12 carbon molecules long. 4 carbon hydrocarbon is Butane which tends to be a gas at room temp where as 12 carbon hydrocarbon (dodecane) is far more likely to be a liquid.
So Dr. FuelMax is saying that the catalyst fractionates the hydrocarbon to smaller more combustible hydrocarbons. However, most of normal gas is NOT primarily butane or even pentane, hexane, etc. because it is too likely to evaporate in the tank and not get to the pistons. I know all gas does have a small amount of butane to help with cold starts but at normal ambient temperature, say 20 degrees celsius, butane would be a gas and probably not very useable. The more branches in a hydrocarbon, the less resistant to ignition and thus knocking.
My question is, if it fractionates the hydrocarbons to a more volatile "highly combustible" molecules," and somehow the these do stay a liquid long enough to get to the pistons, will the MAF be able to compensate sufficiently to prevent knocking?
FYI:
2,2,4 trimethylpentane (aka octane for it's 8 carbons) has the highest octane (100) (highest resistance to knocking) and is 8 carbons long. It is highly branched which helps it from vaporizing. The opposite end of the spectrum is n-heptane which is not branched but is very succeptible to knocking thus it's octane is 0.
Also, each type of gas has two numbers r and m and the octane is the average of the two. R=research, m=motor. R= hard acceleration at low speeds, m=no acceleration at high speeds.
Ok I'm spent. Too much mental masturbation for one night. FYI, I took a petrology class in undergrad which is the only reason I know this. I don't feeling like dealing with diesel petrology but if you feel like it, try googling "cetane."
I am really tempted to say that the gains in fuel economy were SOLELY due to altered driving habits, ie. granny driving thus the results were due to placebo. Thus Dr. Fuelmax has no right to be all grumpy at metalmax. It would be far more believable if the gains were noticed with NO CHANGE in driving habits before and after.
Fun little facts:
1) Airplanes burn kerosene which produces less soot and is between 10-15 carbons, but is not very combustible in comparison to octane
2) Nascar: 110 octane (leaded gas)
3) Indy: use Methanol
4) Topfuel: use Nitromethane
Using 2n squared, s shell holds 2, p shell hold 6, d shell holds 10, and f shell holds 32.
The simplest "hydrocarbon" is CH4 where carbon has 6 electrons, 2 in it's first shell and 4 in it's valence shell.
The 4 hydrogen's that it is covalently bonded to contribute 4 more electrons for a total of 8 for the molecule.
To my limited understanding, the appropriate size hydrocarbon for gas is between 4 and 12 carbon molecules long. 4 carbon hydrocarbon is Butane which tends to be a gas at room temp where as 12 carbon hydrocarbon (dodecane) is far more likely to be a liquid.
So Dr. FuelMax is saying that the catalyst fractionates the hydrocarbon to smaller more combustible hydrocarbons. However, most of normal gas is NOT primarily butane or even pentane, hexane, etc. because it is too likely to evaporate in the tank and not get to the pistons. I know all gas does have a small amount of butane to help with cold starts but at normal ambient temperature, say 20 degrees celsius, butane would be a gas and probably not very useable. The more branches in a hydrocarbon, the less resistant to ignition and thus knocking.
My question is, if it fractionates the hydrocarbons to a more volatile "highly combustible" molecules," and somehow the these do stay a liquid long enough to get to the pistons, will the MAF be able to compensate sufficiently to prevent knocking?
FYI:
2,2,4 trimethylpentane (aka octane for it's 8 carbons) has the highest octane (100) (highest resistance to knocking) and is 8 carbons long. It is highly branched which helps it from vaporizing. The opposite end of the spectrum is n-heptane which is not branched but is very succeptible to knocking thus it's octane is 0.
Also, each type of gas has two numbers r and m and the octane is the average of the two. R=research, m=motor. R= hard acceleration at low speeds, m=no acceleration at high speeds.
Ok I'm spent. Too much mental masturbation for one night. FYI, I took a petrology class in undergrad which is the only reason I know this. I don't feeling like dealing with diesel petrology but if you feel like it, try googling "cetane."
I am really tempted to say that the gains in fuel economy were SOLELY due to altered driving habits, ie. granny driving thus the results were due to placebo. Thus Dr. Fuelmax has no right to be all grumpy at metalmax. It would be far more believable if the gains were noticed with NO CHANGE in driving habits before and after.
Fun little facts:
1) Airplanes burn kerosene which produces less soot and is between 10-15 carbons, but is not very combustible in comparison to octane
2) Nascar: 110 octane (leaded gas)
3) Indy: use Methanol
4) Topfuel: use Nitromethane
08-17-2006, 07:34 PM
#8
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Posts: 112
Originally Posted by Metal Maxima
Sounds like your PETROLEUM engineer needs to learn his chemistry more betterer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bermont
there is no such thing as a "D" electron or any compound that contains it ...
Sounds like your PETROLEUM engineer needs to learn his chemistry more betterer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bermont
there is no such thing as a "D" electron or any compound that contains it ...
Originally Posted by Metal Maxima
I think this might be an item of translation gone wrong. The VESPR model of an atom will account for all electrons in valence shells S, P, D, and F. According to that model, the electron shells for carbon would break down into:
I think this might be an item of translation gone wrong. The VESPR model of an atom will account for all electrons in valence shells S, P, D, and F. According to that model, the electron shells for carbon would break down into:
1s2
2s2 2p6
3s2 (accounting for all 12 electrons)
...even if such is the case, the 'D' shell could not be accounted for as you don't get into the 'D' valence shell until some base metals.
2s2 2p6
3s2 (accounting for all 12 electrons)
...even if such is the case, the 'D' shell could not be accounted for as you don't get into the 'D' valence shell until some base metals.
I know my uncle well and he is hugely knowledgeable about making fuel, additives and compositions ... I was just dictating as to my phone conversation with him and he didnt get in to the full hydrocarbon chain as did Rowan yourself or anyone else ... but rather tried to make make "Laymens" terms for us to explain the hydrocarbon breakdown process as he knew I wanted to make a post about what he concluded from the DrFuelMax website ...
08-17-2006, 10:21 PM
#11
Originally Posted by † ErV †
the saga
continues.
continues.
The saga continues right before your eyes
The saga continues cause its do or die
The saga continues right before your eyes
You know why? (why?)
Cause I'm ruthless for life
08-17-2006, 10:49 PM
#12
Originally Posted by daman
are you serious? take the hecklinig to the big org. We have 10 more testimonials coming so hold onto your judgement till later.
Originally Posted by TOCHIHASHI
It was just surprising in a disappointing way, to come across so many ignorant people in one place at the same time. I have never been company to such a rude, immature, disparaging, snide, and bitter crowd in all of my life. However, we are prepared for this. We must overcome these challenges and rise above through true positive results achieved by real people. We know this product is for real, and in time more people will realize the same.
Rishi and I are determined to persevere through all the hardships that lie ahead of us. Our company is still new here in the States ( less than a month ), so the road is long and arduous ahead for us. All in due time, with results, not words.
Rishi and I are determined to persevere through all the hardships that lie ahead of us. Our company is still new here in the States ( less than a month ), so the road is long and arduous ahead for us. All in due time, with results, not words.
Originally Posted by TOCHIHASHI
My recent test run with my wife's 97 Toyota Corolla has yielded an outstanding 181 miles @ half a tank expenditure of fuel. I guess theoretically, if I were to continue driving under the same circumstances ( light on the gas, focused and consistent velocity / trajectory, good open road w/ minimum or no traffic, fair weather condition and ofcourse a touch of Dr. Fuelmax ) I can squeeze about 362 miles out of $25.69 ( actual cost of gas to fill the entire tank of my wife's car ). 8/11/06
And in case you thought the claims couldn't get any more ridiculous:
Originally Posted by TOCHIHASHI
Our catalyst is guaranteed to increase your overal power output by 8%~18% ( individual results vary depending on vehicle type, model, induction / exhaust capacity and modification ). If you already have a combination of after market induction system and exhaust system, then you are definitely ready to fly my dear man ( but first make sure you have plenty of points in excess on your license, be sure to buckle up, and in the case you get any unfortunate traffic infraction summons, I can refer you to a great attorney ).
On a serious note however, I must warn you that you must be very cautious when running your car with this catalyst. Due to the highly improved fuel burning efficiency in your vehicle, the degree in which you apply pressure to the gas pedal should be re-evaluated and adjusted accordingly to your comfort. For instance, I will share with you one of my personal experiences. My 2004 6th generation Maxima is equipped with your basic C.A.I. ( Injen RD division RD-1945 cool air intake system ), custom 350Z ( nismo type S camshafts and pistons ) engine works, custom Y-Pipe, straight pipe, B-pipe with an Apexi ( N-1 super enduro 115mm tip ) mufflers, and a touch of Dr. Fuelmax ( two to be precise for my car, but you only need one ). Now, this is what happened.
One time, in the beginning stages of adjusting to the catalyst myself, I encountered a really irritating G35 that abruptly cut me off, and when I attempted to return the favor, I abruptly stomped on the gas, all the way down, and all I can remember afterwards is literally needing a change of shorts. What happened was, there was so much combustion going on within the engine chamber, that when I demanded the sudden surge of power from my car, my car leaped foward like a frog! It chirped aggressively at 65 mph, and the front end of my car literally lifted off the ground! By the time I recovered, it was too late on the draw for me to catch up with him. Comes to show that at times, it is not how much power you have into the car, but the ability to control it that really matters
I learned my lesson after that incident, and thereafter adopted a new habit to depress the accelerator pedal more delicately, with precision rather than quantity, experimenting with various degrees of pedal depression to measure each feedback and response from my car. I finally found the comfort zone for my car at about 1/4 pedal depression, and ever since then, my car and I have been an inseparable team. I am still taken time and time again by the sheer sensation of riding on a scud missile as I look and see my competition fade away in my rear view mirror. However, this is just my case, and because every vehicle is different by type, model, induction and exhasust capacity, you will have to adjust your driving approach in the way you would feel most comfortable. In that way, you will be sure to get that neck snapping adrenaline rush you seek in the most positive, safe and effective way.
Also, rest assured that even with the pedal depressed at only 1/4, it will not compromise performance in any way. It merely means that the acceleration pedal response in your vehicle has improved that much due to the increased fuel burning efficiency, and driving adjustments are suggested. If you need to punch it, just go down easy and steady on the accelerator, and you will be fine. Your car will perform and feel as if you were stepping on it at your usual 1/2~3/4. Also, this controlled driving method will also most likely help you maximize your MPG gains and save you on expensive gas costs. Did I just hear..."the best of both worlds??"
On a serious note however, I must warn you that you must be very cautious when running your car with this catalyst. Due to the highly improved fuel burning efficiency in your vehicle, the degree in which you apply pressure to the gas pedal should be re-evaluated and adjusted accordingly to your comfort. For instance, I will share with you one of my personal experiences. My 2004 6th generation Maxima is equipped with your basic C.A.I. ( Injen RD division RD-1945 cool air intake system ), custom 350Z ( nismo type S camshafts and pistons ) engine works, custom Y-Pipe, straight pipe, B-pipe with an Apexi ( N-1 super enduro 115mm tip ) mufflers, and a touch of Dr. Fuelmax ( two to be precise for my car, but you only need one ). Now, this is what happened.
One time, in the beginning stages of adjusting to the catalyst myself, I encountered a really irritating G35 that abruptly cut me off, and when I attempted to return the favor, I abruptly stomped on the gas, all the way down, and all I can remember afterwards is literally needing a change of shorts. What happened was, there was so much combustion going on within the engine chamber, that when I demanded the sudden surge of power from my car, my car leaped foward like a frog! It chirped aggressively at 65 mph, and the front end of my car literally lifted off the ground! By the time I recovered, it was too late on the draw for me to catch up with him. Comes to show that at times, it is not how much power you have into the car, but the ability to control it that really matters
I learned my lesson after that incident, and thereafter adopted a new habit to depress the accelerator pedal more delicately, with precision rather than quantity, experimenting with various degrees of pedal depression to measure each feedback and response from my car. I finally found the comfort zone for my car at about 1/4 pedal depression, and ever since then, my car and I have been an inseparable team. I am still taken time and time again by the sheer sensation of riding on a scud missile as I look and see my competition fade away in my rear view mirror. However, this is just my case, and because every vehicle is different by type, model, induction and exhasust capacity, you will have to adjust your driving approach in the way you would feel most comfortable. In that way, you will be sure to get that neck snapping adrenaline rush you seek in the most positive, safe and effective way.
Also, rest assured that even with the pedal depressed at only 1/4, it will not compromise performance in any way. It merely means that the acceleration pedal response in your vehicle has improved that much due to the increased fuel burning efficiency, and driving adjustments are suggested. If you need to punch it, just go down easy and steady on the accelerator, and you will be fine. Your car will perform and feel as if you were stepping on it at your usual 1/2~3/4. Also, this controlled driving method will also most likely help you maximize your MPG gains and save you on expensive gas costs. Did I just hear..."the best of both worlds??"
The car leapt in the air at 65mph huh
08-17-2006, 11:36 PM
#13
Guest
Posts: n/a
Isnt a Maxima FWD.......How did it ever lift off the ground?
08-18-2006, 05:53 AM
#14
Originally Posted by TOCHIHASHI
One time, in the beginning stages of adjusting to the catalyst myself, I encountered a really irritating G35 that abruptly cut me off, and when I attempted to return the favor, I abruptly stomped on the gas, all the way down, and all I can remember afterwards is literally needing a change of shorts. What happened was, there was so much combustion going on within the engine chamber, that when I demanded the sudden surge of power from my car, my car leaped foward like a frog! It chirped aggressively at 65 mph, and the front end of my car literally lifted off the ground! By the time I recovered, it was too late on the draw for me to catch up with him. Comes to show that at times, it is not how much power you have into the car, but the ability to control it that really matters.
.....
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