Went to the dyno today
12-10-2007, 01:00 PM
#81
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: chicago IL
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well.. Im rebuilding my entire setup this winter and i have been planing on installing egt ports on every cylinder. ill go from there. we have 2 different ideas here that do not match up at all.. and were both being very firm about defending them. I really don't think we could ever come to an agreement.. you keep doing what your doing ill keep doing what i am. we could both be called stubborn but ill choose not to say that about you. end of argument.
12-10-2007, 01:14 PM
#83
The thing is what if one of the cylinder shows lean/rich? Can something be done about that specific cylinder?
well.. Im rebuilding my entire setup this winter and i have been planing on installing egt ports on every cylinder. ill go from there. we have 2 different ideas here that do not match up at all.. and were both being very firm about defending them. I really don't think we could ever come to an agreement.. you keep doing what your doing ill keep doing what i am. we could both be called stubborn but ill choose not to say that about you. end of argument.
12-10-2007, 01:22 PM
#85
... smartest guys rarely post? yeah.. look at Bryan's post history. the guy quit posting because he was tired of arguing with know-it-alls that can't take suggestions from people that know what they're doing. I suggest you take his comments seriously.
12-10-2007, 01:44 PM
#89
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 296
Just to throw another iron in the fire... 
In the Buick world Jason at RJC racing who has the fastest stock block'd Turbo Buick in the country runs 11.3AFR on race fuel and 10.8 with Pump/alky. This is where he found it made the most power with his timing and setup. He runs a EGT in each cyl as well.
You can argue to no end about what it right/wrong. Some AFR's will work well on some guy's stuff and like Poo in another.
A guy from our Sy/Ty board runs 12.8-5 afr.. and he's melted down some pistons in doing so. He's got two of the nicest and fastest Typhoons on the Sy/Ty community.
His single turbo truck runs 10.4's and he's yet to run his 2wd twin turbo truck but it's a bit over the top of his other.
If your going to be running in the 12's for afr you've got a very narrow band for error. If youv'e got a ballanced flow going to each cyl. it's possible to pick up some power from being at that afr.
I run the Somender Singh grooves on all my engines.http://somender-singh.com/
I've found the EGT's are much lower on all the engine's I've used that on.
Thought I'd pass that on as interesting reading info.
I'm just starting to use the HP Tuners on my wife's 98 Jimmy I put a turbo on.
I'm finishing a turbo kit on a 2000 3.8L Camaro as well.
Here's a picture of the 3.8L Engine in my 86 Camaro
(1).JPG)
In the Buick world Jason at RJC racing who has the fastest stock block'd Turbo Buick in the country runs 11.3AFR on race fuel and 10.8 with Pump/alky. This is where he found it made the most power with his timing and setup. He runs a EGT in each cyl as well.
You can argue to no end about what it right/wrong. Some AFR's will work well on some guy's stuff and like Poo in another.
A guy from our Sy/Ty board runs 12.8-5 afr.. and he's melted down some pistons in doing so. He's got two of the nicest and fastest Typhoons on the Sy/Ty community.
His single turbo truck runs 10.4's and he's yet to run his 2wd twin turbo truck but it's a bit over the top of his other.
If your going to be running in the 12's for afr you've got a very narrow band for error. If youv'e got a ballanced flow going to each cyl. it's possible to pick up some power from being at that afr.
I run the Somender Singh grooves on all my engines.http://somender-singh.com/
I've found the EGT's are much lower on all the engine's I've used that on.
Thought I'd pass that on as interesting reading info.
I'm just starting to use the HP Tuners on my wife's 98 Jimmy I put a turbo on.
I'm finishing a turbo kit on a 2000 3.8L Camaro as well.
Here's a picture of the 3.8L Engine in my 86 Camaro
12-10-2007, 01:57 PM
#90
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Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 886
that is some seriously bad *** work on the camaro.
every car is different on was is a desired afr. i have found on the lsj engines that anything above 12.7 will not gain any power. nor will anything above 26 degree's total timing. the egt temps dropped 255 degree's with water injection. it hits 1400 degree's at 140 mph starting from 60. safe? yulp. versus another car that hit 1575 after a 3 rd gear pull with less boost and a richer afr.
i know the limit of what i can and can't do with this engine, and various other ones i have worked with.
yes im stubbourn. it's ok. i can also look past a lot of things.
every car is different on was is a desired afr. i have found on the lsj engines that anything above 12.7 will not gain any power. nor will anything above 26 degree's total timing. the egt temps dropped 255 degree's with water injection. it hits 1400 degree's at 140 mph starting from 60. safe? yulp. versus another car that hit 1575 after a 3 rd gear pull with less boost and a richer afr.
i know the limit of what i can and can't do with this engine, and various other ones i have worked with.
yes im stubbourn. it's ok. i can also look past a lot of things.
12-10-2007, 02:54 PM
#92
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 296
I could sure use a hand with the HP Tuners. There's alot more with the OBD2 settings than our archaic Nissan tuning stuff or Alot of the other programs I've worked with. (Fast/DFI/Tuner PRo ect)
How many other turbo GXP's are there? I just had a customer come in today with one that needs some body repair. I asked him to pop the hood since I'd not seen how GM had put that all together. It looks real similar to the 3.8's.
I've not had a EGT on anything of mine yet. I will run one on the Camaro this spring since I'll finaly be starting to push it a little harder.
I put alot of thought into how I designed the intercooler pipes and the 5" Downpipe. 4" inlet pipe. Hope drive it a bunch again after winter!
~Scott.
How many other turbo GXP's are there? I just had a customer come in today with one that needs some body repair. I asked him to pop the hood since I'd not seen how GM had put that all together. It looks real similar to the 3.8's.
I've not had a EGT on anything of mine yet. I will run one on the Camaro this spring since I'll finaly be starting to push it a little harder.
I put alot of thought into how I designed the intercooler pipes and the 5" Downpipe. 4" inlet pipe. Hope drive it a bunch again after winter!
~Scott.
12-10-2007, 03:45 PM
#93
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Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 886
I could sure use a hand with the HP Tuners. There's alot more with the OBD2 settings than our archaic Nissan tuning stuff or Alot of the other programs I've worked with. (Fast/DFI/Tuner PRo ect)
How many other turbo GXP's are there? I just had a customer come in today with one that needs some body repair. I asked him to pop the hood since I'd not seen how GM had put that all together. It looks real similar to the 3.8's.
I've not had a EGT on anything of mine yet. I will run one on the Camaro this spring since I'll finaly be starting to push it a little harder.
I put alot of thought into how I designed the intercooler pipes and the 5" Downpipe. 4" inlet pipe. Hope drive it a bunch again after winter!
~Scott.
How many other turbo GXP's are there? I just had a customer come in today with one that needs some body repair. I asked him to pop the hood since I'd not seen how GM had put that all together. It looks real similar to the 3.8's.
I've not had a EGT on anything of mine yet. I will run one on the Camaro this spring since I'll finaly be starting to push it a little harder.
I put alot of thought into how I designed the intercooler pipes and the 5" Downpipe. 4" inlet pipe. Hope drive it a bunch again after winter!
~Scott.
are you doing speed density, or keeping the mas air?
either way i have a couple histograms set up for either tuning method if you need em
that right there is the only turbo ls4 car right now, that i know of at least. it's over 400 whp, and 430 ftlbs on 8 psi. the plugs on the back side are a ***** to change.
12-10-2007, 05:32 PM
#94
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: chicago IL
Posts: 661
My comments are only useless to the point that you're not paying attention. Bryan's built and tuned cars for years and is offering suggestions to keep you from blowing yours up, and you slap him in the face.
... smartest guys rarely post? yeah.. look at Bryan's post history. the guy quit posting because he was tired of arguing with know-it-alls that can't take suggestions from people that know what they're doing. I suggest you take his comments seriously.
... smartest guys rarely post? yeah.. look at Bryan's post history. the guy quit posting because he was tired of arguing with know-it-alls that can't take suggestions from people that know what they're doing. I suggest you take his comments seriously.
I firmly believe the best place to tune my engine and setup is low 11s high 10s. Ive watched z31 guys tune there engines to 12s and start melting pistons at the same boost and timing that I'm at.
Currently heres how i stand. 18-20 advance and around 10.7 afr at peak torque and 23 degrees advance and 11.1 near redline.
12-10-2007, 05:39 PM
#95
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Location: chicago IL
Posts: 661
Get better injectors. and if thats not the cause figure out why your intake manifold doesn't flow evenly. Some tuning programs have the capability to tune individual cylinders. At this point i don't have the means for that in nistune, but i believe that Matt the creator is working on it.
12-10-2007, 06:02 PM
#96
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lol
ok.
i'll go play all day long with my 9.5 c/r runnin 19 psi, and 12.3 afr on 91 octane.
i don't know anything. never have.
there is a flaw in your logic. granted all engines {for the most part} work under the same principle. there is a fine line between each one that changes the rules ever so slightly.
put an egt gauge in the car. figure out which chamber runs the hottest, and tune by that chamber. you may get just as much power out of the engine if you drop the boost down a couple lbs, and play with the afr's just a tad.
for the sake of runnin pump gas. put a water injection kit on there. this will drop the chamber temps about 250 degree's. allow you to run a leaner afr, and keep the boost at a safe region.
wanna see if you are hosing the walls down? pull the dipstick after a hard run. if it smells like fuel. you have problems.
ok.
i'll go play all day long with my 9.5 c/r runnin 19 psi, and 12.3 afr on 91 octane.
i don't know anything. never have.
there is a flaw in your logic. granted all engines {for the most part} work under the same principle. there is a fine line between each one that changes the rules ever so slightly.
put an egt gauge in the car. figure out which chamber runs the hottest, and tune by that chamber. you may get just as much power out of the engine if you drop the boost down a couple lbs, and play with the afr's just a tad.
for the sake of runnin pump gas. put a water injection kit on there. this will drop the chamber temps about 250 degree's. allow you to run a leaner afr, and keep the boost at a safe region.
wanna see if you are hosing the walls down? pull the dipstick after a hard run. if it smells like fuel. you have problems.
You don't know much about my logic, that wasn't a very long post.
How ever you completely missed my point. You said, "its too rich" I said basically "no its not". Ive ridden in his car, its proven and works GREAT! The 50K on only two engines is proof. And the first engine died from one or two locked injectors, not tuning.
You know what works for your setups, his is completely different.
Both are valid aproaches, but Id just try every combo untill I find the sweet spot for my setup, I don't just say ok 10:1 or richer afr and 20deg timing and its tuned, i would search for the best power vs knock no matter what the afrs and timing ended up at.
~Alex
12-10-2007, 06:18 PM
#98
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: chicago IL
Posts: 661
For example (all this considering timing is tuned accordingly)
say your max boost and hp level able to be made with a given engine at 12:1 afr is 15 psi and 350 hp before your so close the knock its unsafe to throw any more boost at it...
Then you take that same engine and tune it to 11:1 afr, yes at 15 psi you might only be making 330 hp.. but due to the extra fuel your able to put another 4 psi into it making a peak safe hp of say 375.
That basically Sums up my theory and experience. The best way to do it overall is combination of both those theories.. and progressively get richer with the increase in boost.. up until a certain level
Last edited by maxmaxima91; 12-10-2007 at 06:24 PM.
12-10-2007, 08:00 PM
#100
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it all depends on how i drive.. obviously. around town having fun i almost always average 20-21.. and if i take it easy on the highway i have gotten as high as 30-31... that was with lots of tuning while cruseing the highway to maximize it for the conditions.
12-10-2007, 08:24 PM
#102
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its due in part to the fact that my injectors (deatschwerks) are balanced near perfect, im running a bit more timing at cruseing than stock since the stock engine wasn't tuned for 93 and .. everything surrounding my engine is high flow. plus i have it leaned out a bit more than stock in highway throttle/load area
12-10-2007, 11:01 PM
#104
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road course... very little, drag strip prolly like 10
12-21-2007, 01:16 PM
#107
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Posts: 886
I only said 10:1 wasn't too rich , IE washing down the cylinder walls. At least for the VG, depends on the engine/setup really. I said nothing about 12:1 afr being too lean or rich. I meant to say anything richer then 10:1 is probably not helping any thing at all and thats when i start hearing of washing down the cylinder walls. IMO rich is when its past being safe and starts washing down cylinder walls, thats about 9:1, and 10 being ok for most engines.
You don't know much about my logic, that wasn't a very long post.
How ever you completely missed my point. You said, "its too rich" I said basically "no its not". Ive ridden in his car, its proven and works GREAT! The 50K on only two engines is proof. And the first engine died from one or two locked injectors, not tuning.
You know what works for your setups, his is completely different.
Both are valid aproaches, but Id just try every combo untill I find the sweet spot for my setup, I don't just say ok 10:1 or richer afr and 20deg timing and its tuned, i would search for the best power vs knock no matter what the afrs and timing ended up at.
~Alex
You don't know much about my logic, that wasn't a very long post.
How ever you completely missed my point. You said, "its too rich" I said basically "no its not". Ive ridden in his car, its proven and works GREAT! The 50K on only two engines is proof. And the first engine died from one or two locked injectors, not tuning.
You know what works for your setups, his is completely different.
Both are valid aproaches, but Id just try every combo untill I find the sweet spot for my setup, I don't just say ok 10:1 or richer afr and 20deg timing and its tuned, i would search for the best power vs knock no matter what the afrs and timing ended up at.
~Alex
id have better luck trying to get hellen kellar to moo at a cow apparently.
read the last line i posted in the quote of yours.
12-21-2007, 02:04 PM
#108
2 guys... Two different experiences.
I'll say, Is your car exactly the same?
I admire your (pl.) knowledge but let time tell.
If he's running "too rich" then let him decide to keep it. And if MM is right then he's all good.
I'm not taking sides but differences are interesting. How's about you two post your vehicle profiles.
And no verbal throwdowns. I respect what you guys are doing.
I'll say, Is your car exactly the same?
I admire your (pl.) knowledge but let time tell.
If he's running "too rich" then let him decide to keep it. And if MM is right then he's all good.
I'm not taking sides but differences are interesting. How's about you two post your vehicle profiles.
And no verbal throwdowns. I respect what you guys are doing.
12-21-2007, 05:41 PM
#110
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Originally Posted by Alex_V
How ever you completely missed my point. You said, "its too rich" I said basically "no its not". Ive ridden in his car, its proven and works GREAT! The 50K on only two engines is proof. And the first engine died from one or two locked injectors, not tuning.
I AM NOT CALLING YOU A BAD TUNER!!!! I'm just saying don't make such blanket statements when setups can differ so much.
Any way I'm done, if you don't want to read and understand my posts enjoy....
~Alex
See you gentlemen in Maxus 
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