ok I have a stillen sway bar in my car with stillen strut bar, ST's and tokicos. The car is extremely hard to drive at the limit. It oversteers SOOO easy. I took a freeway exit today at about 45-50 mph, the recommended speed was 30. I came out and was showing my friend what a sway bar does and at the end of the turn I lift-throttle steered and the back came WAY out. My car ended up going sideways and I was looking at the curb. It was late and no one was on the road cause this exit is only one way so no oncoming and no one was ahead of me so I knew I was safe as far as other cars being around.

Anyways I counter-steer'd in somewhat of a panic and the car came back around, but I had to counter steer about 4 times before I got the car in a straight line again. Do you guys recommend throttling when in a serious drift or not throttling and just counter-steer until the car gets straight. Unfortunately, it seems whenever I get major oversteer I can't get the car to plant with one counter-steer. It's usually about three counters and the car ROUGHLY gets traction. My car is like a pinball when this happens. Someone tell me their settings, driving styles, and amount of oversteer.

As it is now, if I take a freeway exit/entrance (the cloverleaf style 180) and don't use the gas at all. I just cruise in neutral the car will oversteer even without me jerking the wheel. If I keep the wheel turned but don't move it the back will come out on it's own. So the handling is far from neutral. If I stay on the gas the car seems to stay planted longer. However, I want a car that's neutral and when I jerk / lift-throttle-steer I can create oversteer.

Anyone have a setup like what I want?

Thanks guys!

[Edited by BrianV on 01-06-2001 at 04:52 AM]

damn brian, good thing your good driving skills got you out yet another adventure.

Bah if I was like them super Japanese or British race car drivers, I'm sure my reactions would've been faster, smoother, and it would've looked REAL cool on camera. My crap on camera looks like one of those, "Police Chase Videos" where the dude in the helicopter is like, "Oh what is wrong with this idiot, he almost killed himself"

Brian,
I have the same car but without most of your mods. I just have the Stillen FSTB and RSB. The car is still very controlable, I can power thru freeway ramps and feel the tail just starting to go, then just lighten up slightly to bring it back into control. Overall a nice balance. The car can be driven faster in turns with the RSB, but you have to be more aware at the limits.
The car as it comes from the factory is set to oversteer, safer for most people. Adding the RSB changes the chassis dynamics to reduce or eliminate the understeer,allowing the tail to swing out under cornering.
What setting do you have the RSB set to, I used the holes they used on "their car" in the instructions. Setting it too far forward could balance the car too far to oversteer.

I've got ST/Tokico and Stillen FSTB, RSTB, and RSB. I also have 225/50/16 Michelin Pilot XGT Z4 tires on 16 x 7.5 O-Z Racing Monte Carlo wheels. Did you upgrade your tires and wheels to fully exploit your excellent suspension mods? I think the missing piece to the puzzle may be a matter of adhesion, which upgraded tires/wheels can provide. Good luck, and... Drive safe.

I'm running Yokohama A520 225/50/16 so I'm sure it's not the tires. I don't remember where I adjusted the sway bar to but I'm sure it's pretty damn far forward.

Also, Nissan set the car to understeer from the factory, not oversteer as you mentioned JohnnyMax

you probably have the RSB set way too far forward.
i set mine 1/2" before the rear beam, this allows for swift turning, but bewarned!

most people like a little understeer, so having it slightly behind the rear beam will give fun driving too.

at the track, i know some people who shift it as far forward as possible..but that may not be for you.

also, the stillen bar has so many different settings..
it's got two different sets of holes..
the further apart the bolts are in the holes.. the stiffer the ride.

the closer the bolts are, a lesser effect. u can experiment with moving the bar up and down the beam, and using different holes. :)
--cheston

Thanks Cheston.

Hey can you still get me a 95-96 UPRD ECU?

yeah.

i'll try. im sorta like stuck on this deal.. arrgh. need to talk to UPRD...

Brian,

I know EXACTLY how you feel.
But unfortunately for me, my little adventure cost me
a rear bumper.

I've got eibach/koni, Stillen RSB, and a FSTB. Hey, my tires are also Yoko A520s!

I had the RSB forward of the rear axle. This was fine when my suspension was stock. It worked well at the track. But after the suspension upgrade, my max became tail happy - as I found out on a freeway on ramp one week before getting some track time (as Cheston can attest to...hehe). But when my rear came out, it kissed the guard rail *sigh*.

I've since moved the RSB behind the rear axle. Yep - good old understeer is back. But I've recently become not too happy with it (maybe memories of the accident are fading).
So just this weekend, I adjusted the RSB to under the rear axle to make it stiffer, but not as stiff as before.

Yeah I know how you feel about that massive oversteer, I was very lucky. Anyways, this was one of the first mods I didn't install myself. I had so much work and my friend saw that I had it for like three weeks and told me to let him put it on. So I left him the car and my garage and when I got back from work he was finished (I drove his Benz to work). So I have no way of knowing where he set it, but I think he put it all the way forward.

Also, how hard is it to adjust, do I even need instructions or is it that easy?

Stuff you should know...
 

- You are one lucky SOB. I'm glad nothing happened to you or your Max, but please be careful.
- For the RSB, you know how there are five holes, but only two are used for mounting on the bracket clamps? The closer you mount the bracket clamps together, the less the car will oversteer. Of course, the car will oversteer if you do the opposite and mount the clamps farther apart. So, try mounting the brackets as close together as possible.
- I know that Stillen recommends placing the bar completely in front of the rear axle, but I imagine that the effects will be more dramatic (as in your case) if the bar is located under, or behind, the rear axle. ***Anyone know about this?***
- Driving style wise, in a Front Wheel Drive car, like the Max, you need to stay on the gas the whole time. Brake all the way up until you turn, then get back on the gas immediately - and stay there. If you don't get on the gas, the tranny and the weight of the mechanicals acts as a front-only brake and can cause wicked weight transfer, causing the rear to get light.
- Your turn-in should not be early. By turning early, you will end up going wide and could run off the road. Turn in later - it's much, much safer. You may have to brake harder and longer going into it, but the results are a faster, safer turn.
- Also, if you brake while turning, you can lift the inside rear tire, allowing the rear to again get unsettled. (I had this happen to me a number of times at the track day I recently attended.) So the lesson to learn is: brake up until your turn-in point (which should be late), turn, and get on the gas and stay there. You don't have to floor it, but you do need to keep the front tires from acting like a brake. Remember to always be in the right gear (preferrably 5000 rpms at turn-in), otherwise you won't have the flexibility of the fat part of the torque band.
- Enjoy the Ride.

SleeperSE
 

"- I know that Stillen recommends placing the bar completely in front of the rear axle,"

Stillen recommends mounting the bar just rear of the axle. Mounting it underneath or ahead of the axle makes the car more likely to oversteer.

"- Driving style wise, in a Front Wheel Drive car, like the Max, you need to stay on the gas the whole time"

I disagree. Staying on the gas all the time induces understeer in a front driver, which is not the fastest way through a corner. The reason for this is the drive wheels break loose and unfortunately they are also the wheels that do the steering. Now the car can't steer through the corner and continues in a straight line.
In a rear drive car, you can use the throttle to induce oversteer and "point" the car into the corner.
There's a reason front drivers don't make good race cars.

Re: SleeperSE
 

- That would be a big fat negatory - on both parts. I noted, somewhat ambiguously, that you need not floor it while cornering. I intended for the audience that you not cause the front to lose traction past a certain point. Once past that point, you will most definitely induce power-understeer. I can assure you that you will be very fast around a corner, indeed, if you remain on the gas. Yes, your tires will squeal, as all street tires do, but you will be able to maintain (or accelerate if your entry was slower than necessary) speed through the turn. The "point and shoot" method scrubs too much speed. ***The only time your front tires, according to Mike Dunn (who holds a record on the Sebring course, and whose personal race car is a front-wheel drive CRX), should be without power is when you are braking.***
- Anytime you lose traction in a RWD car, you are wasting time. It may be cool to watch, but exiting while inducing power-oversteer is not the quickest way. If you had set up the corner properly, you would not need to break the rear loose.
- If I recall correctly... When I installed my RSB about a month and a half ago, the Stillen instruction sheet recommended placing the bar ahead of the rear axle to "prevent scraping on the ground" or something to that effect. If someone with an instruction sheet can verify this, I would be most grateful.

Ever read "Going Faster" by the Skip Barber Racing School - considered by many to be the best book on race driving technique? They go indepth as to why front drivers basically suck as race cars. And the only drivers that dont use the throttle to point the car out of a corner on a rear driver are the slow ones. I watch the CART and F1 guys do it all the time. I'm not talking gross "sprint car" oversteer, I'm talking about having a neutral setup where you can drift the car out through the exit with the throttle. Sometimes there is wheelspin involved.
Regarding the RSB, I threw out my instruction sheet. However, common sense dictates that if you shorten the bar installing it further forward, obviously you are going to make it stiffer. Imaging mounting a 4 ft bar in a vise and then standing at the other end and trying to bend it. You will have better luck bending that than say a 2 ft bar - it's a matter of leverage. I have also experienced just that with my own car, as I have tried it in three different positions. Positioning it rear of the rear axle does make it hang down somewhat - but you would have to run over some kinghill manhole cover or go off road to catch it on something.