dan1el

Ok, as some may already know, my Rear TC Case O Ring replacement has now turned into 2 bent valves on the front bank and now I will be removing the front head and getting a machine/valve job done on it. I am a total noob to the mechanic world and honestly to the hands on world in general. I really want to thank the org members for all the advice and help I received that made the work I've done so far possible. It sounds like bad news to most that I bent 2 valves because I got my timing off, but I think of it as an incredible learning experience and it was well worth every hour of blood and sweat. I now feel confident I can do just about anything on my car and I picked up my first ratchet in November '09. Once I get the head done, I will post a how to on pulling the head which will include the o ring replacement I originally planned on doing. I hope this will help some brave noobs in the future so they don't make the same mistakes I made.

So I pretty much have to do the exact same thing for replacing the o rings except also remove the cams and the 10 bolts on the head. I have a couple of questions cause I don't want to go into anything else blind.

1-Anyone know of a good machine shop in the north Houston, TX area? I want a trustworthy shop but I don't know anything at all about machine shops. I live in Spring, TX.

2-Any other suggestions of what I should do while I'm in there? I already replaced the water pump and the TC guide and tensioner. I think I need to do the head gasket and the upper and lower intake gaskets. Do I need to put RTV on any of these gaskets or just torque it to spec and move on?

3-My uncle told me that for one bank he would expect to pay around $150 for a valve job. Anyone else wanna throw their $0.02 in here? Does that sound right?

Thanks, Dan

dan1el

4-Do we have hydraulic valve lifters? I read on the org that we do, then I read that we don't. Someone said it's a "bucket and shim" design which is all greek to me. A machinist I spoke to said it would be like $450 if the head has solid valve lifters and I don't know what that means.

5-Please verify we only have 2 valves per cylinder. 2 machine shops thought it had 4 per but I looked on courtesyparts.com and it says 12 valves per vehicle. Or does it mean 12 intake and 12 exhaust?

cashoit

yo big D man,

to begin, i am amazed the progress u have made with the car. U went from padi wan to jedi master maxi-man in a few short months. I must commend you.

Now, Shd be 4 valves per cylinder. Im not from houston so i cant tell u where to get the machine work done. might be cheaper jus to buy an engine and swap it out. especially if they talkin 450. Resurfacing a head shouldnt cost more than a hundred bucks considering it shouls only take a hr or two. Definitely use a thin layer of RTV on the gaskets. Certainly wont hurt. Good luck man. and keep at it.

dan1el

Thanks for the info. So each cam has 6 "rocker arms" (I believe that's what they're called) and each one moves 1 valve? There are 2 intake valves and 2 exhaust valves for each cylinder?

When you say no more than $100 you are just talking about the machine work right? With the valves being replaced and all that what would you say? My uncle said maybe $150, but I can't get anywhere near there with the people I have spoken to.

Thanks, Dan

cashoit

There was a thread where a guy resurfaced his cylinder heads. U can try askin him how much it cost.

I have never taken off the valve cover so i dont wanna steer u wrong. The Haynes is much better than the FSM for engine overhaul information. yeah shd be 2 intake and 2 exhaust. 24 valves all together. Sheesh where is Phmor or NJmax when u need them. Those guys wd definitely kno

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

We dont have rockers, the cam is right over the valves. We have shims and lifters.

Honestly it would be a whole lot easier getting a used motor and swapping it in.

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

You'd be much better served getting used engine and just swapping it in, in my opinion. New engine will be cheaper and you'll be done with much less downtime, less work, and less frustration, not to mention less possibility of messing something up.

Blakfreestyle

iTrader: (1)

Yes please listen to these guys. I recently turned 30 years old. Began working on cars at the age of 10 or so. I have an uncle that is a mechanic that taught me. Then 2 years of autos in high school... Have never stopped working on cars.

For older vehicles it doesn't make sense to break the factory sealed head gasket unless you are doing a rebuild of the engine. When you can get a long-block engine for $500 and have it R@R in the same day. And replacing an engine is less work than internal engine work. Especially considering that an engine hoist is only $100 new at a store. (I know, I bought one and have only used it about 5 times).

Now that you have actually removed the cylinder head, I have to advise you not to be cheap with the machine work. They have to measure the head to make sure it is not warped. Measure all valve gaps and clearances. In my opinion $150 per cylinder head is a cheap price.

Are you saying that your timing chain broke and then caused the valves to bend? My advice for a machine shop is the old fashioned yellow pages. Just call 10 different places and get quotes. Searching the internet for those types of shops is usually pointless.

dan1el

All,

Thanks a lot for the input.

The main reason I don’t want to swap the engine is that I already know exactly how to get the head off. So I’m not breaking into new territory with the head R&R. However, I’ve never touched the transaxle and I don’t have an engine hoist. I’m not worried in the least that I would mess something up R&Ring the head because I now know exactly how to handle the timing gear and all that. Basically I don’t want any surprises, and with the head R&R I know exactly what to expect. Plus I know for a fact that this engine runs well (except for me killing 2 cylinders lol). I feel like it’s kind of a gamble to get a salvage engine? Am I off base?

However, I greatly respect the advice of the orgers. So what’s involved in taking the engine out? Last night I removed the UIM, AC compressor, PS pump, Alternator, Center Member, dropped front Exhaust Tube, and the Steel Oil Pan.I would imagine a lot more hoses, sensors and stuff have to come off to pull the engine, but the part that worries me is the transaxle.

Also what is a “long block”? Does that mean with the tranny attached? Or does it mean with the heads and valve covers attached?


The chain didn’t break when I reset the timing before. It was just the bolt on the end of the camshaft that came loose because I didn’t tighten it enough. The back cams stayed stationary while the front ones moved along with the crank out of time with each other and so I killed 2 cylinders on the front bank.

Thanks, Dan

ATTappman

Long block = short block + cylinder heads. No transaxle in either case.

I thought you had to unbolt the transaxle to get to the upper oil pan seal? Or is that only for the rear main seal?

Is pulling the heads off these cars really that bad? Is it because you can't get the head gasket to seal when the engine's still in the car?

dan1el

Thanks for the info on long vs short block.

To get the upper oil pan off, you don’t have to touch the transaxle. You do for the Rear Main Seal though.

Cylinder head rIt’s on EM-34 in the FSM. Basically it involves:

-removing the Upper Oil Pan (along with it, the AC Compressor and its bracket and the exhaust and center member and lower oil pan
-removing Upper Intake Manifold and Lower Intake Manifold and Fuel Tubing.
-removing Passenger Side Engine Mount
-removing Power Steering Pump
-removing Idler Pulley Bracket
-removing crankshaft pulley
-removing Outer Timing Chain Cover
-removing Tensioner, Chain Guides, the Big Chain, the Water Pump, Camshaft Sprockets, and the little Cam Timing Chains.
-removing Rear Timing Chain Case
-removing Camshaft Brackets and Camshafts
-Remove Head Bolts and Head.

ATTappman

If I was in your situation I'd just press on with pulling the heads (do you have to pull both of them, or are the two bent valves in the same cylinder bank?).

What I'd worry about is: 1) the block deck being warped or gouged, and needing to be resurfaced. 2) getting the head gasket lined up perfectly so that it seals. 3) the cost of the head gasket(s) and all new cylinder head bolts, since I don't think it's wise to re-use those bolts. 4) will I strip the threads in the block when removing the head bolts 4) do I have a good quality calibrated torque wrench, and do I need an angle gauge as well.

Last weekend I had to remove my rear valve cover because I tore the PCV valve grommet trying to get it out, and half of it fell into the valve cover. When I went to put the cover back on, I found that 6 of the 10 valve cover bolt holes needed to have a thread restoring tap run down in them to get the bolts to turn smoothly. Why, I don't know. Even then, the threads in one bolt hole wouldn't clean up, so I just turned the bolt until it looked like the other bolts, even though I had to use a lot more torque to get it there. This is the kind of unexpected thing that could kill a cylinder head R&R.

dan1el

Both on the front bank.

1)I can check it, but will a machine shop check it for me? Would I be ok you think getting a head from another engine and put it on instead of having the old one machined?

2)I planned on using a little RTV to hold it in place to help getting it lined up.

3)Head gasket was like $45.00 from Dave B. Thanks for the tip about the bolts. I will get new ones ($4.17 x 8 since I am only doing 1 head).

4)I have a torque wrench but don't know how it compares. What's an angle gauge?

These are potential problems I will look out for, but unfortunately I am pretty sure I would face the same risks on a greater scale if I swap the engine. What's the PCV? I am pretty familliar with the VC's but I never looked that one up lol.

dan1el

I'm confused.. The FSM calls what most people refer to as the "Valve Covers" as the "Rocker Covers". Could it be that since the "rockers" aren't detachable from the cams they are not called "rockers"?

ATTappman

No rocker arms on our engines, like JSutter said. The cam lobes push directly on the valve lifters. The lifters have shims in them to adjust the valve clearances.

ATTappman

Something like this. The cylinder head bolts have to be tightened to a specified torque in two steps, then turned 90 to 95 degrees.

Seems that way to me too. But orgers seem to swap engines much more frequently than they pull cylinder heads, so they're probably right. It's good that it's only one head, and the front one, but I guess you still have to pull off the UIM to remove the lower intake manifold. Probably should replace your knock sensor while you're at it, since you got a code for that.

PCV - positive crankcase ventilation. Air flows from the intake through the crankcase, through the PCV valve, and into the intake manifold, purging any gases that leak by the piston rings into the crankcase.

dan1el

Thanks. I will prolly get one of those.

Yeah I have no doubt the engine swap would be less work. However I would be getting into a whole new territory. Since I only have one chance left to get this sucker operational before my wife pushes it off a cliff, I have to be sure I know what I'm doing lol.
I am pretty sure the sensor and wires are working just fine. FSM says that the code is reported not just with bad sensor, but with excessive vibration in the motor. I was running like a helicopter at idle so if I idled too long it threw the Knock Sensor code.


Do you have a clue how much it costs to get a valve job done on our heads?

dan1el

UPDATE:
The front cylinder head is out. And I think I only broke 1 sensor getting at it lol. I’m taking the head to my uncle for inspection this afternoon and then it’s off to the machine shop. It wasn’t as bad as I had expected. It only took me about 12 hours to get it out. The bolt heads were pretty much butter. They were allen bolts, but rather than an allen socket I would definitely recommend a torx socket to prevent stripping them.

One gasket I didn’t realize I would need to remove is the one between the exhaust manifold and the head. It’s metallic. Anybody got an opinion on whether or not I should reuse this? It’s like $38 from courtesyparts.com and I’m already past my budget. If I reuse it all I have to do later is drop the exhaust and remove the manifold again. What will I notice if it doesn’t get a proper seal/how can I tell if it needs to be replaced?

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

Some times you can get away with reusing multi ply metal gaskets and sometimes you cant. I have only hi-temp RTV red and no gaskets on my SE-R turbo setup. No issues. Id use a thin layer rtv and the old gaskets.

dan1el

Cool. I like this option. Anyone know if permatex ultra black is ok for the kind of heat the exhaust manifold gets?

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

black up to 500*f
red up to 650*f
copper up to 700*f Suggested Applications: Exhaust manifolds/ headers, etc

WOW I guess I should have used copper! LOL. The red has treated me well over the years. If it aint broke dont fix it.

dan1el

Thanks for the info but unfortunately I have no idea how hot our engine gets lol. Should I just switch to red or copper on everything?

More important question:

I had 180-185 psi on all cylinders on the back head. Should I get it machined along with the front? Or leave it alone since the compression is on the high end of spec? FSM says standard is 185.