Timing chain noise on hot engine? Something else...
06-01-2014, 07:33 AM
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 20
Timing chain noise on hot engine? Something else...
Hey guys, fairly new owner of a 95 GLE auto. Have a noise when the engine is hot, sounds like the TC, but looking for a second-opinion.
The quick and skinny. Bought the car with 193K needing water pump (was leaking), was misfiring (found out needed fuel injector) and randomly stalling (Coolant temp sensor).
Thanks to this forum, I managed to replace all these things myself and the car runs great. Now at 205K. I am running Mobile1 dyno oil 10w40 (it's hot here Texas)...
So... From the forums I am fairly sure I have the cold engine startup TC rattle for about 2-3 seconds then it sounds great and smooth.
What I am unsure of (and haven't been able to find online)... i have a rattle that returns when the engine reaches operating temperature. It sounds like the TC again (not as loud as cold), but kind of like an out of adjustment bicycle chain. YOu can hear it in the background as I rev the engine. It has some intermittent ticking when hot but it is just the exhaust doing what it does as this continues after engine shut-down.
I've attached a link of both sounds: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mofvzpocp...jMMt6PsFscTEqa
So far I have removed the drive belts trying to isolate the noise, it's still there, so I am fairly certain it is the chain. Using a screw driver I can hear it loudly near the idler pulley (yes even without the belt on) - mainly looking for a second opinion. Also, if so - what do you think - will a failing tensioner cause a hot-rattle on thinner oil, or an I having an oil delivery / pressure issue.
The oil light goes off quickly when cold. On hot start, it will flicker a second or two, then go off. I don't have any other engine noise though that I can hear. It does seem to have a bit of piston slap when cold. It is ever so vaguely apparent in the cold start video but it doesn't seem related...
As for the engine, it never runs hot. I run 4000 between changes and the oil level never changes, so it isn't using oil. It may have had some neglect as I can see the camshaft under the oil fill isn't super clean...but it doesn't appear to be abused either.
The quick and skinny. Bought the car with 193K needing water pump (was leaking), was misfiring (found out needed fuel injector) and randomly stalling (Coolant temp sensor).
Thanks to this forum, I managed to replace all these things myself and the car runs great. Now at 205K. I am running Mobile1 dyno oil 10w40 (it's hot here Texas)...
So... From the forums I am fairly sure I have the cold engine startup TC rattle for about 2-3 seconds then it sounds great and smooth.
What I am unsure of (and haven't been able to find online)... i have a rattle that returns when the engine reaches operating temperature. It sounds like the TC again (not as loud as cold), but kind of like an out of adjustment bicycle chain. YOu can hear it in the background as I rev the engine. It has some intermittent ticking when hot but it is just the exhaust doing what it does as this continues after engine shut-down.
I've attached a link of both sounds: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mofvzpocp...jMMt6PsFscTEqa
So far I have removed the drive belts trying to isolate the noise, it's still there, so I am fairly certain it is the chain. Using a screw driver I can hear it loudly near the idler pulley (yes even without the belt on) - mainly looking for a second opinion. Also, if so - what do you think - will a failing tensioner cause a hot-rattle on thinner oil, or an I having an oil delivery / pressure issue.
The oil light goes off quickly when cold. On hot start, it will flicker a second or two, then go off. I don't have any other engine noise though that I can hear. It does seem to have a bit of piston slap when cold. It is ever so vaguely apparent in the cold start video but it doesn't seem related...
As for the engine, it never runs hot. I run 4000 between changes and the oil level never changes, so it isn't using oil. It may have had some neglect as I can see the camshaft under the oil fill isn't super clean...but it doesn't appear to be abused either.
06-01-2014, 11:53 AM
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central AR
Posts: 3,041
Hey ArkLaTex Neighbor -- welcome to Maxima.org.
Are you the DIY type that doesn't mind getting into the core of your engine?
If not, where are you located in TX as we may have some members in your area who can offer their services or direct you to a competent mechanic in your area.
At ~225,000 miles my 99 I30 started the timing chain rattle. I was able to find an OEM tensioner (exact match) and get it installed through the tensioner access door.
At the time I was working mega hours and did not have time to undertake the installation at home.
It is not a hard job, just tedious and you need to make sure you KEEP the TENSIONER PLUNGER PINNED into the tensoner body before you remove and replace.
If the tensioner plunger breaks loose, the spring or part of the plunger may fall into the timing chain that requires timing cover removal.
On my 99 Maxima, I recently tried to find a new tensioner to install for preventative maintenance since I had the timing cover off for resealing and chain inspection. Unfortunately, the tensioner I ordered requires updated timing chain guides. The engine I have in the Max today has roughly ~73,000 so there was no need to replace the guides or tensioner.
If you cannot find just the tensioner for your Max, and you are faced with buying an entire guide kit, as an alternative you might be able to find a member here in the classified section that has an early style tensioner for sale or can find one.
It seems Nissan and the parts stores are looking to now sell both tensioner and guides with the updated design. Unfortunately, there is a big difference in the amount of time it takes to just replace the tensioner vs. a complete guides and tensioner job.
Let us know where you are located as we have some members here from
TX who may be able to help directly or indirectly.
Are you the DIY type that doesn't mind getting into the core of your engine?
If not, where are you located in TX as we may have some members in your area who can offer their services or direct you to a competent mechanic in your area.
At ~225,000 miles my 99 I30 started the timing chain rattle. I was able to find an OEM tensioner (exact match) and get it installed through the tensioner access door.
At the time I was working mega hours and did not have time to undertake the installation at home.
It is not a hard job, just tedious and you need to make sure you KEEP the TENSIONER PLUNGER PINNED into the tensoner body before you remove and replace.
If the tensioner plunger breaks loose, the spring or part of the plunger may fall into the timing chain that requires timing cover removal.
On my 99 Maxima, I recently tried to find a new tensioner to install for preventative maintenance since I had the timing cover off for resealing and chain inspection. Unfortunately, the tensioner I ordered requires updated timing chain guides. The engine I have in the Max today has roughly ~73,000 so there was no need to replace the guides or tensioner.
If you cannot find just the tensioner for your Max, and you are faced with buying an entire guide kit, as an alternative you might be able to find a member here in the classified section that has an early style tensioner for sale or can find one.
It seems Nissan and the parts stores are looking to now sell both tensioner and guides with the updated design. Unfortunately, there is a big difference in the amount of time it takes to just replace the tensioner vs. a complete guides and tensioner job.
Let us know where you are located as we have some members here from
TX who may be able to help directly or indirectly.
06-01-2014, 02:14 PM
#4
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 20
follow up
Thanks for the quick reply. I've had the TC tensioner out before when I did the water pump to give myself more slack to get the pump out. I looked it over and it looked ok so I put it back instead of replacing it. It was a PITA but much easier pulling one bolt and sliding it back. I stuffed a bunch of shop towels under it just in case.
I'm pretty handy and I can follow instructions. I can replace the tensioner just wanted to be sure of my diagnoses before I went through the hassle again.
Should I be concerned about oil pressure causing this or is it usually the tensioner. its just odd I don't see alot of info on these forums about a hot rattle..just the cold rattle.
Ive read somewhere that some folks have installed the updated tensioner without swapping guides... aligns differently but works ok. can anyone confirm or deny this?
I'm in San Antonio by the way. I'll be glad to chime in with electrical and similar diagnoses I'm an electrical engineer by trade... so that stuff sorta just makes sense to me.
Thanks again!
I'm pretty handy and I can follow instructions. I can replace the tensioner just wanted to be sure of my diagnoses before I went through the hassle again.
Should I be concerned about oil pressure causing this or is it usually the tensioner. its just odd I don't see alot of info on these forums about a hot rattle..just the cold rattle.
Ive read somewhere that some folks have installed the updated tensioner without swapping guides... aligns differently but works ok. can anyone confirm or deny this?
I'm in San Antonio by the way. I'll be glad to chime in with electrical and similar diagnoses I'm an electrical engineer by trade... so that stuff sorta just makes sense to me.
Thanks again!
06-01-2014, 05:04 PM
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central AR
Posts: 3,041
Good deal. You're an experienced tensioner changer and EEs are always welcome.
Since the VQ30DE does not use Hydraulic Lash Adjusters (HLAs) the chain tensioners seem catches the fallout from oil and any pressure issues.
It never hurts on an older engine to run an oil pressure check if you have access to a gauge or testing kit. If you rent a testing kit, just be sure to note the thread pattern on some Japanese cars like Nissan use British Standard Pipe Thread (BSPT) instead of NPT. I found a kit at Harbor Freight with the correct fitting for running a pressure test a few years ago. I use teflon tape to wrap the threads like Nissan does on several engines for testing and the sensor. .
If would be great if we could find a source and/or show other members how to adapt a tensioner without having to do a full guide replacement. <hint> :-)
Here's a picture of the timing chain with the cover off and the big guide that runs between the cams that I believe catches chain slap when there too much slack.
There will be more experienced members chiming in tomorrow during the daytime.
Since the VQ30DE does not use Hydraulic Lash Adjusters (HLAs) the chain tensioners seem catches the fallout from oil and any pressure issues.
It never hurts on an older engine to run an oil pressure check if you have access to a gauge or testing kit. If you rent a testing kit, just be sure to note the thread pattern on some Japanese cars like Nissan use British Standard Pipe Thread (BSPT) instead of NPT. I found a kit at Harbor Freight with the correct fitting for running a pressure test a few years ago. I use teflon tape to wrap the threads like Nissan does on several engines for testing and the sensor. .
If would be great if we could find a source and/or show other members how to adapt a tensioner without having to do a full guide replacement. <hint> :-)
Here's a picture of the timing chain with the cover off and the big guide that runs between the cams that I believe catches chain slap when there too much slack.
There will be more experienced members chiming in tomorrow during the daytime.
06-04-2014, 11:07 AM
#6
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 20
Hmmm
So I replaced the TC tensioner with one from autozone. It doesn't line up perfectly, shoots slightly below but still made contact with the guide.
So I ran it like that for a day (why not right, needed to drive the car). The noise is honestly the same. I took another recording and it doesn't appear to have changed much if any. I'm going to do as other forum posters have suggested and swap the plunger, spring and other components from inside the new tensioner to my old one - see what that does since the angle will align properly.
I'm almost starting to think something else is making the noise, or perhaps the TC is actually stretched? I've checked all my engine driven accessories, except the water pump under the covers. It only has about 6000 miles on it, but it was a cheap-o from amazon, maybe it went bad.
Please, anyone wants to listen to the sounds I attached above and let me know guesses of what it sounds like to you!
So I ran it like that for a day (why not right, needed to drive the car). The noise is honestly the same. I took another recording and it doesn't appear to have changed much if any. I'm going to do as other forum posters have suggested and swap the plunger, spring and other components from inside the new tensioner to my old one - see what that does since the angle will align properly.
I'm almost starting to think something else is making the noise, or perhaps the TC is actually stretched? I've checked all my engine driven accessories, except the water pump under the covers. It only has about 6000 miles on it, but it was a cheap-o from amazon, maybe it went bad.
Please, anyone wants to listen to the sounds I attached above and let me know guesses of what it sounds like to you!
06-04-2014, 12:55 PM
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central AR
Posts: 3,041
In the TC picture above, can you determine by using a mechanic's stethoscope if the chain is slapping against the guides on the main chain (top center) or the cam chains (left/right top)? Notice the cam chain on the left in the picture from my previous post shows slack that will bounce against the upper guide and make noise.
IIRC there are two smaller tensioners behind each cam chain. I haven't read much about those can tensoners failing but if one tensioner has failed due to previous owner running engine oil too long between changes, there is a chance the others could have problems as well.
IIRC there are two smaller tensioners behind each cam chain. I haven't read much about those can tensoners failing but if one tensioner has failed due to previous owner running engine oil too long between changes, there is a chance the others could have problems as well.
09-23-2016, 01:48 PM
#8
So I replaced the TC tensioner with one from autozone. It doesn't line up perfectly, shoots slightly below but still made contact with the guide.
So I ran it like that for a day (why not right, needed to drive the car). The noise is honestly the same. I took another recording and it doesn't appear to have changed much if any. I'm going to do as other forum posters have suggested and swap the plunger, spring and other components from inside the new tensioner to my old one - see what that does since the angle will align properly.
I'm almost starting to think something else is making the noise, or perhaps the TC is actually stretched? I've checked all my engine driven accessories, except the water pump under the covers. It only has about 6000 miles on it, but it was a cheap-o from amazon, maybe it went bad.
Please, anyone wants to listen to the sounds I attached above and let me know guesses of what it sounds like to you!
So I ran it like that for a day (why not right, needed to drive the car). The noise is honestly the same. I took another recording and it doesn't appear to have changed much if any. I'm going to do as other forum posters have suggested and swap the plunger, spring and other components from inside the new tensioner to my old one - see what that does since the angle will align properly.
I'm almost starting to think something else is making the noise, or perhaps the TC is actually stretched? I've checked all my engine driven accessories, except the water pump under the covers. It only has about 6000 miles on it, but it was a cheap-o from amazon, maybe it went bad.
Please, anyone wants to listen to the sounds I attached above and let me know guesses of what it sounds like to you!
Exact same scenario. Did you ever figure it out?
09-23-2016, 04:37 PM
#9
you can run it like that i supose for a week and then buy one of these http://www.ebay.com/itm/271148165800?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AITor you have a delivery issue, maybe the rubber o rings are shot (hard to believe but possible) that go between the block and upper oil pan...or the pump is bad.
09-18-2018, 09:53 PM
#10
Newbie - Just Registered
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 1
Hi,
I know this thread is old but I have the exact same issue in my 2002 Altima V6. Did you find out what the cause was? I replaced my TC/tensioners/guides about 9 months ago with "Cloyes" kit and the noise still exists.
Exact same scenario as yours, it makes noise for like 2 seconds on cold start, then goes away until engine hits operating temp. Then it comes back and is there between 2000-3500 RPM and disappears above 3500ish.
Any help is appreciated.
Thanks.
I know this thread is old but I have the exact same issue in my 2002 Altima V6. Did you find out what the cause was? I replaced my TC/tensioners/guides about 9 months ago with "Cloyes" kit and the noise still exists.
Exact same scenario as yours, it makes noise for like 2 seconds on cold start, then goes away until engine hits operating temp. Then it comes back and is there between 2000-3500 RPM and disappears above 3500ish.
Any help is appreciated.
Thanks.
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