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I've been struggling with finding the issue so far, here is a list of what I have done:
Fuel pump test, mech gauge inserted just after fuel filter:
ignition on - 40-45 lbs... it seems to vary a few pounds either way, but still over (my understanding of) the required 35 lbs.
It bleeds down to about 30 lbs after 5 minutes
After a 1/2 hr it seems to stabilize around 25 lbs.
NO error codes detected. This only happens when the car is cold, but is getting worse.
There is no fuel in the vacuum line coming off the regulator. Vacuum line on or off seems to make no difference in how the car starts, idles or runs/accelerates sitting in the drive.
I have sprayed down the Mass Airflow sensor with specific MAP cleaner. It wasn't dirty that I could see, so I wasn't surprised it made no change.
It seems to me that something should be squirting fuel just pre-start, and in fact I hear a fast tick-tick-tick-tick like a solenoid once the ignition is on but only if I touch the accelerator pedal. I can do it repeatedly, and hear the sound every time. It seems to make a difference, but not enough and certainly isn't fixing the cause of the problem.
I can get the engine to fire right off the bat by shoving about 10mL of fuel into the open ventura past the butterfly with a syringe. Works every single time.
The ignition switch was replaced about 6 months ago.
The battery is new.
The starter is year old.
The crank speed is plenty fast/hasn't changed at all.
The plugs are about 9 months old. High end best I could buy NGK platinums, IIRC.
I recently replaced both tappet cover gaskets, and the intake gasket.
While I was in that far, I pulled the EGR pipe - it was absolutely full of solid garbage, all the way into the intake. I ran a dremel/soft brass wire wheel in them both until every thing I could reach was bare metal spotless in every port.
I tested that the EGR was working properly by tying into it with a vacuum hose, creating a vacuum and feeling the bottom of the EGR valve for movement. I held the vacuum, and it didn't back off, it held in place.
It ran fine for weeks following, then this issue came up.
Once the car is started and sputters for a few seconds, it runs just fine. No miss, no noticeable loss of power.
I cannot find any connectors or wires that look sketchy. Everything seems tight, and the motor idles smooth once past the choke and hack of getting it started. No puff of smoke, occasionally I will smell gas but not every time.
I ran an extra 12 ga ground wire to the body off the top of the intake, as I've heard that some people have had success with that. No change.
I'm believe I'm looking for either a fuel issue, or one electronically controlled by electric on the start up routine, but I'm old school (right at home on an old 70's GM, for example)... any ideas?
Last edited by Aaron Griffin; 03-28-2017 at 07:55 PM.
If by TB you mean throttle body.. Yes. I cleaned it when I was into the intake and tappet gaskets at the end of Jan this year (2017). Not familiar with IACV, is there a place where I can find the acronyms listed?
Included picture of what it looked like before being cleaned out. I have had zero trouble until roughly a month and a half later.
ok - I found the factory service manuals.. with you now. Idle Air Control Valve.
No, I did not pull that assembly off/apart for cleaning.
But I will be doing so tonight - is there any gotchas hiding in that procedure? (Like a 'watch out for the spring that comes flying off' or 'never use cleaner X on it, that melts plastic' sort of stuff. The basics like don't use 200lbs of torque when you put it back together I am good on.)
Spray some electrical cleaner or MAF cleaner on your Crankshaft position sensors. Sometimes they get gunked up with crude and make the car hard to start. You can find their location in the FSM.
You could have a bad ECTS that is reporting too high a temperature, which would give you too lean a fuel mixture mixture. You can either check the resistance of the sensor with an ohmmeter or read it (when the engine is cold) with an OBD code reader.
Spray some electrical cleaner or MAF cleaner on your Crankshaft position sensors. Sometimes they get gunked up with crude and make the car hard to start. You can find their location in the FSM.
+1 on a dirty Crankshaft position sensor. Easy enough to clean.
IACV was good - not spotless but pretty close to it. For 183k miles, it was much cleaner than I would have expected.
For future reference to others both sensors on the IACV Assembly were 21.6 ohms.
Looks like a nasty front/passenger side crank sensor. Cleaned it up from the previous oil leak and now it fires up when cold. I am not done because it still starts harder than I think it should. I believe there is a 2nd crank sensor from other posts on this matter. I cleaned up the cam sensor while I was into this.
The slightly harder starts could be fried plugs from all the cranking to start, so I will replace those again and report back over the weekend. Those are happening regardless of hot or cold now, and this car has never displayed that behavior before.
Thanks to everyone taking their time to help me get to the bottom of this!
Last edited by Aaron Griffin; 03-30-2017 at 09:03 PM.
ok, I am back - the passenger side crank sensor is cleaned, which enabled me to start it at all w/o having to shove fuel down the ventura..... the driver/transmission side is now also cleaned. They both had a fair amount of gunk. While I was in there, I pulled and cleaned a pretty much already clean (but oily) crankshaft sensor.
Car now starts cold, but I still have to crank on it a few seconds more than I should. This used to be a 'tap the ignition' car before all this started happening. Still, no OBD error codes. I pulled the NGK platinum plugs out - the same ones I've had for probably 15k miles w/o this trouble. A few had some reddish oxidization film, but not anything major. Got them cleaned up, put them back in..... still starting hard.
So... as a test I pulled the cold air sensor partially out of it's rubber hole, and got a P0110 error. No change in start. Popped it back in place, no error and still cranking longer than it should. If I crank for 3 seconds, let off, crank again in 1 second - it starts pretty consistently. That's going to burn the starter prematurely.
So now I am wondering, is there some kind of reset for the air/fuel that I need to be looking at?
Last edited by Aaron Griffin; 04-01-2017 at 04:12 PM.
I should add that it is now a hard start issue - hot, warm, cold... doesn't matter at all now.
It does seem to help to hold/pump the accelerator pedal. It still sputters like it's flooded (though I cannot prove that - no puff of smoke or heavy gasoline smell), and then everything is good. No errors, no hesitations, OBD tells me gas mileage is in spec.
I nailed it. Finally. There is a Start fuse in slot 33.
If that circuit isn't providing power, it affects ONLY the start up routine. Hot, Warm, Cold - it won't matter. Put a 7.5A in it. Car fires right up by tapping the starter, just as it had in the past.
I nailed it. Finally. There is a Start fuse in slot 33.
If that circuit isn't providing power, it affects ONLY the start up routine. Hot, Warm, Cold - it won't matter. Put a 7.5A in it. Car fires right up by tapping the starter, just as it had in the past.
Issues resolved!
CONGRATULATIONS Aaron! This thread is a keeper. Have a great weekend!
I'm having a hard time getting my head around this.
In post #10 you said your car started today, just not instantly. So by changing a fuse your car now starts instantly. What's Nissan's thinking behind this?
Best I can decipher it there is a start up routine as I suspected that squirts a small amount of fuel to get things rolling to start the engine. Since there is a process electrically tied to it, Nissan saw fit to put a separate fuse on it. Screwy, but it's the only thing that makes sense.
I don't see that at all. Fuse # 33 (Starter Signal) is used by the Theft system, the Canadian DTRL system and the ECU when starting the engine. If the fuse is blown, the alarm system (theft) will not disable the starter. The DTRL system is for the headlights.
This leaves the ECU thing. When the ignition key is in the START position to make the starter crank the engine, 12 volts is sent to the ECU pin 20 to let the computer know you are starting the car. No 12 volts = no start. If you are ever working under the hood and try to start the car by jumpering the starter solenoid, the car won't start because the ignition switch has to be in the START position.
I am not aware of any circuit that squirts gas into the air intake during a cold start. That is taken care of by the ECU reading the ECTS and having the fuel injectors spray in more gas for a richer mixture.
DennisMik, thank you for your great explanation. Between you and CS_AR, this forum gets tons of experience and professional advice. I always look forward to reading what you two have to share.
I find that many forums are great assets to the internet. Many people have a wealth of knowledge, and are very generous in sharing this information with "strangers".
Maybe the world isn't such a bad place after all ! LOL
I don't see that at all. Fuse # 33 (Starter Signal) is used by the Theft system, the Canadian DTRL system and the ECU when starting the engine. If the fuse is blown, the alarm system (theft) will not disable the starter. The DTRL system is for the headlights.
This leaves the ECU thing. When the ignition key is in the START position to make the starter crank the engine, 12 volts is sent to the ECU pin 20 to let the computer know you are starting the car. No 12 volts = no start. If you are ever working under the hood and try to start the car by jumpering the starter solenoid, the car won't start because the ignition switch has to be in the START position.
I am not aware of any circuit that squirts gas into the air intake during a cold start. That is taken care of by the ECU reading the ECTS and having the fuel injectors spray in more gas for a richer mixture.
Certainly not any pro about this, but the car would start... it just took some cranking to start it. Shooting 8-10mL's of gas down it's throat and it started right off. If it's tied into the anti theft... it's a pretty weak anti-theft system.
There's got to be more to this
Not sure if this is related but...I had cold start issues when I first bought mine. Living at 5,280 feet in elevation...cars do weird sh....mine would crank, get up to RPM to start, and then drop and not start.
I found throttle body cleaning with sea foam spray, toothbrush, premium fuel, and long distance driving along with fresh synthetic oil changes helps minimize both hot and cold start issues. I still sometimes have mysterious hot start issues that get worst in hot weather after using the A/C and especially if my fuel tank is low and cold....which gets worst as my oil gets older than 5,000 miles...my car will take a long time to start up. I've switched from 7,500 to 5,000/6,000 mile oil changes for that reason.
I recommend driving 100+ miles, fuel injector cleaner, and not allowing tank to get below 1/4 empty. -336,000 miles.
97 GXE - We have a lot of the same philosophy in car care. I don't let it under a 1/4 tank. Firm believer in Sea Foam. I change oil every 2500 miles, and I don't use cheap oils. I burn only non-eth unless (as has been on rare occasion) nothing is available otherwise, then I get the high grade crapanol. I haven't had the start issues - ever - until recently and it happened around the same time I ripped/replaced the entire front suspension and steering system and pull everything valve cover and out along with intake for a gasket refresh and clean up. So, I thought it was something I did directly. Ended being a combination of crank sensors/the#33 fuse, which is reaaaallly weird. To my knowledge I was no where near that fuse, but I get the crank sensors. The reason for the gasket refresh was a bad tappet gasket on the rear of the motor. It is wholly conceivable that when I chemical/blast washed the motor, all that oil garbage ran down into the crank sensors, but doesn't explain the start fuse.
I may never know why, but I do think my issues are over on this round of related/non-related issues. It's been an interesting ride the last few months.
Certainly not any pro about this, but the car would start... it just took some cranking to start it. Shooting 8-10mL's of gas down it's throat and it started right off. If it's tied into the anti theft... it's a pretty weak anti-theft system.
There's got to be more to this
that's old school on say a 79 cutlass like i had, maxima's just have a million sensors and an maf that refuses to quit. ( mine has 283,000 on it ) so on a maxima you actually have to think, " which %&%^&%!!!! sensor is bad??
I'm still not understanding how replacing a not blown out fuse will improve anything. My car is having cold start problems where it will crank and start, only to immediately stall. It will only start in the cold if I keep my foot on the gas for 30 seconds or so, and after that it's fine. Everything I've read points to the coolant temp sensor, but I just installed a new OEM Nissan one yesterday and the car still won't start normally in the cold. I guess I'll clean out the IACV again and do a smoke test for vacuum leaks. Probably clean off all the cam/crank sensors as well. But aside from that, I'm kind of at a loss here. I was really thinking the CTS would fix it, but it made no difference.
Edit- Someone else had similar cold start problems and they appeared to be solved with a new fuel filter. I'll go replace mine and report back!
Last edited by 95maxrider; 01-21-2018 at 09:20 AM.
This is beyond my knowledge but others can feel free to add....
This I do know. There are 2 coolant lines going to the TB. The front most line I have found to be clogged. I have removed countless TBs at the pull a part and found most to have clogged lines. Not sure what causes it but the blockage is pretty bad. The return line seems to always be clean.
This is what I am not sure about. There is a wax seal on the TB that leaks coolant. I think it has something to do with cold start. Not really sure what that part does. Or if having a blocked coolant line could cause starting issues.
This is beyond my knowledge but others can feel free to add....
This I do know. There are 2 coolant lines going to the TB. The front most line I have found to be clogged. I have removed countless TBs at the pull a part and found most to have clogged lines. Not sure what causes it but the blockage is pretty bad. The return line seems to always be clean.
This is what I am not sure about. There is a wax seal on the TB that leaks coolant. I think it has something to do with cold start. Not really sure what that part does. Or if having a blocked coolant line could cause starting issues.
My understanding is that heated coolant going to the TB is only useful once the coolant is up to temperature and the car is running. Cold coolant (or blocked coolant passages) should have no effect on a cold TB, and thus shouldn't be related to cold start problems.
Are you seeing any excess or unburned fuel from the exhaust once it starts? An item to check is fuel leak down that may be occurring during the night.
I take it your FRP and injector o-rings are fairly recent?
How would I see unburned fuel from the exhaust? I have an aftermarket AFPR on the car and have a gauge hooked up to it. What should I be looking for in terms of fuel leak down? I have never serviced my fuel injectors on this motor.
I nailed it. Finally. There is a Start fuse in slot 33.
If that circuit isn't providing power, it affects ONLY the start up routine. Hot, Warm, Cold - it won't matter. Put a 7.5A in it. Car fires right up by tapping the starter, just as it had in the past.
Issues resolved!
Can you confirm that there was a fuse there that seemed to be good, but replacing it with a new fuse seems to have fixed your problem?
My understanding is that heated coolant going to the TB is only useful once the coolant is up to temperature and the car is running. Cold coolant (or blocked coolant passages) should have no effect on a cold TB, and thus shouldn't be related to cold start problems.
I disagree. There is a fast idle cam controlled by the thermal-element. While I agree if the thermal-element was functioning there would be no issue. However, the thermal-element is where the coolant travels in and out of the TB. If the line going in is clogged no telling what the shape of the spring is in. If the spring is corroded and locked in place it would bypass the cold idle.
I disagree. There is a fast idle cam controlled by the thermal-element. While I agree if the thermal-element was functioning there would be no issue. However, the thermal-element is where the coolant travels in and out of the TB. If the line going in is clogged no telling what the shape of the spring is in. If the spring is corroded and locked in place it would bypass the cold idle.
Good information! I've got a TB for a 2001 Pathfinder on my car, I wonder if it has the same design.
Good information! I've got a TB for a 2001 Pathfinder on my car, I wonder if it has the same design.
Most of the Nissans around this time frame have this setup. The thermo-element is a spring with a wax seal. The wax seal leaks or should I say drips coolant with age. It acts very similar like a thermostat.
Thank to all. Aaron Griffon had the answer for me. He truly did nail it. After literally months of cleaning, replacing and checking parts related to this problem and lots of head scratching, I found his post. The #33 fuse was missing. Maybe the guy who serviced it last year for a bad plug while on vacation pulled it for some reason. I've never had it start so easily as now. I put in that stinking little fuse and boom...fired up like a new car. Talk about a happy person. I am old school and learning as I go so I put lots of time into this starting issue and want to thank everyone for the input. My wife sends her thanks also. This is definitely a keeper thread!
Maxima.org is my go to site for sure.. just gotta poke around.
Can you confirm that there was a fuse there that seemed to be good, but replacing it with a new fuse seems to have fixed your problem?
I would like to know this as well. Was the fuse missing, blown, or intact?
Oh, and to follow up on my earlier post, replacing the fuel filter seemed to fix the problem for over a month, but it just had problems starting a few days ago, so I guess there's still more work to do. I'll check fuse #33...
The fuse was definitely NOT good. It was blown. And since replacing it, I've had zero trouble out of the car, which is now approaching 190k. Problem was definitely corrected with the fuse.
I would add though, if your car has been subjected to high humidity by just changing a fuse it's conceivable you could remove crud from the contacts. I went through every fuse/contact using a low speed setting on a dremel/polish brush and cleared any debris/corrosion from all metal contact surfaces. Probably overkill, but I'm a do it right or why did you bother kind of guy.
Last edited by Aaron Griffin; 03-21-2018 at 08:23 PM.
Yep, in my case the fuse was gone completely, not even there. I bought this car as a salvaged vehicle, "99 Max, have had it for 7 years with no problems until I was on the road and needed to have a guy check plugs and stuff. Dont know what happened but he said he had to make some adjustments to IAVC and throttle and Idle just to start it. I didnt realize until a few hundred miles later that she had a REAL problem starting. Did he remove the fuse for some reason? Dont know. I suspect that as I set the alarm off once and didnt know how to disable it. Maybe he pulled the fuse? Or maybe not. Dont know.
I did all of the above fore mentioned in the other posts pretty much but in the end it was a missing fuse #33. I dont know the exact specifics of why, but replacing the fuse worked for me. Plus I've got lot's of clean and new parts trying to figure it out...(bright side of it all).
Many thanks to all. High five & yeehaw.
Keyword: hard start, rough idle, chugging, wont start, and Huh?
I would like to know this as well. Was the fuse missing, blown, or intact?
Oh, and to follow up on my earlier post, replacing the fuel filter seemed to fix the problem for over a month, but it just had problems starting a few days ago, so I guess there's still more work to do. I'll check fuse #33...
My fuse #33 was in place and intact. On to the next idea....
How would I see unburned fuel from the exhaust? I have an aftermarket AFPR on the car and have a gauge hooked up to it. What should I be looking for in terms of fuel leak down? I have never serviced my fuel injectors on this motor.
I just realized I didn't answer your question. When I had leaking injectors the car had puffs of white smoke. The exhaust had a fuelly smell.
I had the injector rail off the car when I tested this one for leaks a few years back. Basically, you close the fuel line loop and insert a fuel pressure gauge in the loop. Then hold the rail under pressure to see if any fuel escapes from the nozzles or if you see a drop in pressure. You can do this one the car.
03-28-2017, 07:46 PM
