Hard Starts: Tranny to Engine Grounding??
01-27-2003, 07:22 PM
#1
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Posts: 57
Hard Starts: Tranny to Engine Grounding??
Hello all:
I have hard starts on my 1999 Maxima, 40K miles - hot or cold - sometimes the starting is really bad (takes 4 or 5 cranks, with gas pedal pressed) and sometimes not so bad (2 cranks) but never perfect (1 crank, like it used to).
Replaced ECTS, battery, spark plugs, adjusted idle to 750. Dropped Fuel injector cleaner 2 times in tank. No improvement. No codes on ECU.
Sometimes I also get a popping sound during start. A Nissan tech says that the problem is poor ground between engine and tranny which is fixed by removing and reinstalling the tranny after cleaning mounting surfaces. He also handed me 2 symptom diagnosis sheets (see below).
I am not sure this make sense but would appreciate any thoughts. I say if the problem was ground, then the jumper would have done the trick. Also, how many hours would it take a mechanic to remove and reinstall the tranny?
Man, this is driving me nutz.
Regards,
"FC9002335
Symptom: Long crank before starting.
Description: Vehicle would crank for long time before starting and would occasionally sound as if the timing was too far advanced.
Root Cause: Poor engine ground between tranny and engine.
Service Procedure: Fabricate a 10 gauge wire jumper between 1 of upper bell housing bolts and 1 of lower engine oil pan bolts.
Source: Nissan NA"
COMMENT: My car has this jumper installed already.
"FC9002906
Symptom: Engine is hard to start sometimes.
Description: Engine is hard to start and a popping sound, like engine is out of time, can be heard.
Root Cause: Possible electrical noise caused by different electrical ground voltage levels in engine block, oil pan and tranmission castings.
Service Procedure: Check all tranny-to-engine mounting bolts and installed and torqued to specs. If problem remains, remove tranny, clean mounting faces on engine and tranny. Reassemble and torque to specs.
Source: Tim Brunet, Nissan NA"
I have hard starts on my 1999 Maxima, 40K miles - hot or cold - sometimes the starting is really bad (takes 4 or 5 cranks, with gas pedal pressed) and sometimes not so bad (2 cranks) but never perfect (1 crank, like it used to).
Replaced ECTS, battery, spark plugs, adjusted idle to 750. Dropped Fuel injector cleaner 2 times in tank. No improvement. No codes on ECU.
Sometimes I also get a popping sound during start. A Nissan tech says that the problem is poor ground between engine and tranny which is fixed by removing and reinstalling the tranny after cleaning mounting surfaces. He also handed me 2 symptom diagnosis sheets (see below).
I am not sure this make sense but would appreciate any thoughts. I say if the problem was ground, then the jumper would have done the trick. Also, how many hours would it take a mechanic to remove and reinstall the tranny?
Man, this is driving me nutz.
Regards,
"FC9002335
Symptom: Long crank before starting.
Description: Vehicle would crank for long time before starting and would occasionally sound as if the timing was too far advanced.
Root Cause: Poor engine ground between tranny and engine.
Service Procedure: Fabricate a 10 gauge wire jumper between 1 of upper bell housing bolts and 1 of lower engine oil pan bolts.
Source: Nissan NA"
COMMENT: My car has this jumper installed already.
"FC9002906
Symptom: Engine is hard to start sometimes.
Description: Engine is hard to start and a popping sound, like engine is out of time, can be heard.
Root Cause: Possible electrical noise caused by different electrical ground voltage levels in engine block, oil pan and tranmission castings.
Service Procedure: Check all tranny-to-engine mounting bolts and installed and torqued to specs. If problem remains, remove tranny, clean mounting faces on engine and tranny. Reassemble and torque to specs.
Source: Tim Brunet, Nissan NA"
01-27-2003, 09:29 PM
#4
I had a problem like this after my clutch install. It wasn't apparent until a few months after. I exhausted everything I could think of; checked plugs, spark, transducer, ignition, various sensors - you get the point. Finally I gave up and took it to the dealer. They were stummped the first day and asked to keep the car overnight and they would call HQ the next day. They came back saying the same thing regarding the tranny to bell housing connection. That was the only thing it could be. They removed it and cleaned both mating surfaces (for free since they did the clutch work prior) and reassembled everything. Problem was fixed. I didn't try the jumper method but think that should work just as well 
Good luck, sorry to hear about it. Btw, there is a lot of labor involved w/ removing the tranny. $$$
Good luck, sorry to hear about it. Btw, there is a lot of labor involved w/ removing the tranny. $$$
01-27-2003, 09:52 PM
#5
Re: Hard Starts: Tranny to Engine Grounding??
Originally posted by ssubhash
. . .starting is really bad (takes 4 or 5 cranks, with gas pedal pressed)
. . .starting is really bad (takes 4 or 5 cranks, with gas pedal pressed)
Do not touch the gas pedal on a fuel-injected vehicle during startup -even when your vehicle is not running properly. This will decrease the liklihood of startup, not increase it. The ECU/ECM meters fuel automatically as required by the engine based on sensor data - you should not do it manually under any circumstances during startup.
When you do this, you confuse the ECU & add "bad data" to the equation, actually making it harder for the car to start.
Throttle inputs during startup should only be made on carbureted engines with no engine computer management systems.
01-28-2003, 05:45 AM
#7
Member who somehow became The President of The SE-L Club
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I call 
on the tranny to engine connection. Think about that for a second. You have large bolts that are threaded into the engine block and torqued down onto the tranny housing. That alone is a very good current path. There are also many other ground points on the engine block itself. Your car would not run correctly if the engine block wasn't grounded correctly. Your electrical system would not run correctly either, nor would half of your sensors. Most all the sensors are grounded on the engine block up near the fuel rail.
I think I'd look at the actual position of the crank sensor on the flywheel down under the tranny. If thats not in the correct position, the timing will be off during startup. It may have been jolted slightly when the new tranny was installed. Perhaps removing it and reinstalling it onto the bell housing would assure it was in the correct position.
Another thing to do is the infamous throttle body cleaning. The pop you hear does point twards a timing issue.
on the tranny to engine connection. Think about that for a second. You have large bolts that are threaded into the engine block and torqued down onto the tranny housing. That alone is a very good current path. There are also many other ground points on the engine block itself. Your car would not run correctly if the engine block wasn't grounded correctly. Your electrical system would not run correctly either, nor would half of your sensors. Most all the sensors are grounded on the engine block up near the fuel rail.I think I'd look at the actual position of the crank sensor on the flywheel down under the tranny. If thats not in the correct position, the timing will be off during startup. It may have been jolted slightly when the new tranny was installed. Perhaps removing it and reinstalling it onto the bell housing would assure it was in the correct position.
Another thing to do is the infamous throttle body cleaning. The pop you hear does point twards a timing issue.
01-28-2003, 06:35 AM
#9
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,078
can someone show some visuals of what ground they are talking about, i have noticed the same problems after we put the ACT clutch in my car and would be interested in checking the grounds. where exactly is it located?
02-03-2003, 12:44 PM
#10
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,078
Originally posted by NotNew!!NewSN!!
can someone show some visuals of what ground they are talking about, i have noticed the same problems after we put the ACT clutch in my car and would be interested in checking the grounds. where exactly is it located?
can someone show some visuals of what ground they are talking about, i have noticed the same problems after we put the ACT clutch in my car and would be interested in checking the grounds. where exactly is it located?
uhhhh bump? is the grounding internal or external on the tranny cuz now my tach isnt working and im having mild electrical issues after act installation.
02-03-2003, 01:34 PM
#11
Originally posted by NotNew!!NewSN!!
uhhhh bump? is the grounding internal or external on the tranny cuz now my tach isnt working and im having mild electrical issues after act installation.
uhhhh bump? is the grounding internal or external on the tranny cuz now my tach isnt working and im having mild electrical issues after act installation.
This means any bolt, or mating surface between the bell-housing and the engine could ground the connection. (I know you want something more specific tho, so if anyone here knows the answer 4-sure, fire away).
ttt
02-03-2003, 01:54 PM
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,308
i have the same EXACT problem...i just had my act installed a few monthes ago also... im going to check the crank positioning sensor to make sure it is clean. the dealer fed me the same **** about cleaning the mounting points but that is just way too much $$$
02-03-2003, 02:23 PM
#13
I gotta tell ya, I understand why everybody doubts the dealers claim but my dealer did the work, at THEIR expense (now you know if there was another way around it, they'd find it) and it completey fixed the problem. Certainly try all other avenues but in the end I wouldn't completey rule the dealers claim out. My .02
02-03-2003, 05:43 PM
#14
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Remove and clean the Crank Sensor (pos) that looks at the flywheel. I got an email from someone who read this post, removed his/her crank sensor (pos). Said it was full of fine metalic dust. Cleaned it up and the car starts like new again.
The tranny mating surface ground is There are huge bolts that bolt the tranny onto the block. The amount of area those bolts are contacting on both surfaces, especially deep into the block, is probably enough to supply current to a fairly large house.
Think about that logically.
The tranny mating surface ground is
There are huge bolts that bolt the tranny onto the block. The amount of area those bolts are contacting on both surfaces, especially deep into the block, is probably enough to supply current to a fairly large house.Think about that logically.
02-03-2003, 06:28 PM
#15
To "logically" test this, take a pair of jumper cables and connect the black wire to the battery negative (-) and connect the other end of the black wire to one of the clutch housing mounting bolts (preferably closer to the starter). Don't use the red wires at all and make sure the wires will not get in the way of anything or short the battery out once you try to start the car. Try starting the car and see what happens. If it works then maybe you want to make a permanent jumper with wire the same diameter as the jumper cable to go between the battery and the clutch housing. If it doesn't do anything for you it cost you nothing.
ssubhash, your original post mentions a 10 gauge jumper wire between the oil pan and one of the clutch housing bolts. 10 gauge is no where near enough to make any difference for the current involved here. I wonder if it was meant to read 1/0 gauge which is considerably bigger. The above mentioned test will simulate this jumper.
As always, good luck and I hope it's your crank posistion sensor.
Keep us informed.
ssubhash, your original post mentions a 10 gauge jumper wire between the oil pan and one of the clutch housing bolts. 10 gauge is no where near enough to make any difference for the current involved here. I wonder if it was meant to read 1/0 gauge which is considerably bigger. The above mentioned test will simulate this jumper.
As always, good luck and I hope it's your crank posistion sensor.
Keep us informed.
02-24-2003, 04:54 PM
#16
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Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 57
Hello all:
I have an update:
1. Cleaned Throttle Body manually with rag and brake cleaner. It definitely had soot build-up before.
2. Cleaned Crank Sensor (POS). This also had some metal dust build-up.
There is a slight, almost imperceptible, improvement in starting - I need 2-3 cranks instead of 4-5. Stepping on the gas pedal definitely helps. Popping is less frequent now.
Pls help me not pull the remaining hair on my head!
I have an update:
1. Cleaned Throttle Body manually with rag and brake cleaner. It definitely had soot build-up before.
2. Cleaned Crank Sensor (POS). This also had some metal dust build-up.
There is a slight, almost imperceptible, improvement in starting - I need 2-3 cranks instead of 4-5. Stepping on the gas pedal definitely helps. Popping is less frequent now.
Pls help me not pull the remaining hair on my head!
02-24-2003, 07:00 PM
#19
Locate your starter which is between your battery and engine. It is located on the clutch/bell housing directly under the throttle body. Find a big bolt near the starter and attach one end of your jumper cable there, attach the other end to the battery. Remeber, only use the black and make sure the red doesn't accidently touch the battery +. Try starting the car and see if it starts up easier. Let us know what happens. Sorry, I'm w/o my car right now and can't take a pic.
02-26-2003, 11:18 AM
#21
Originally posted by ssubhash
Tried the jumper also - didnot make any diff. Man, this is bizzarro!
Tried the jumper also - didnot make any diff. Man, this is bizzarro!
One thing I'm curious about, you mentioned in your original post that you adjusted the idle to 750. How did you do that exactly? Good luck.
02-26-2003, 11:51 AM
#23
About your idle, if the dealer did it, it should have been done right. While it is true that all you have to do is turn that screw to adjust it, you're supposed to check a couple of other various things (like crankshaft and throttle sensors to name a few). IF you don't and you just turn that screw, you can mask other problems that may have been found by performing the correct procedure for idle adjustment. Well, I think I'm tapped out of ideas. I wish you luck and please keep us posted, this is very interesting to me.
03-09-2003, 10:22 AM
#24
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Posts: 57
Could it be a problem with the harness?
A mechanic claims replacing the harness would alleviate the problem - I do not buy that - I'd rather check each connector on the harness and fix the loose or broken connection than the whole harness for $2K!
A mechanic claims replacing the harness would alleviate the problem - I do not buy that - I'd rather check each connector on the harness and fix the loose or broken connection than the whole harness for $2K!
03-09-2003, 02:20 PM
#26
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Originally posted by Toolrocks
Which harness? Also, the harness should be able to be checked to confirm whether replacemtent is the proper fix. At that cost they should be sure before guessing. Again, good luck.
Which harness? Also, the harness should be able to be checked to confirm whether replacemtent is the proper fix. At that cost they should be sure before guessing. Again, good luck.
If any of the sensors is bad, will it not throw a code on the PCM? I am guessing the PCM detects whether the sensor is sending back signal or not and if yes, then whether signal is in acceptable range for that sensor. Gimme a scenario in which a sensor would be bad, causing hard start but not a code at PCM.
Also, in a reply to my earlier posts someone wrote that the popping sound (that comes if I press the gas pedal to start) definitely points to timing issue. What does that mean?
Can this be caused by the flywheel being bent or missing teeth?
04-25-2022, 02:54 AM
#27
Intake manifold gasket or injector orings bad that ground wire **** is bananas. Nissan probably tells them say you clean the metal surfaces of the bell and block but they just swap crank sensor on you for $800
04-25-2022, 02:59 AM
#28
I do have a 01 max that would start up run for about 2 mins the die and would not start again for an hour was the weirdest thing too. Since I had got it every now and then the starter would skip a tooth and grind all wild, went to replace the starter since I had a good one extra once I removed the stater on the max I saw that the Bendix was infact in perfect condition but the flywheel was chewed up. The debris from the flywheel was get caught on the harmonic balancer crank sensor giving it a bad read. Blew the crank case out put a new fly wheel in problem solved
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