Raced a '03 Mustang SVT Cobra and a Corvette
06-28-2002, 08:22 AM
#82
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 454
Originally posted by Dave B
You guys COMPLETELY missed my point about the Lingenfelter C5 TT. I said find me a Japanese supercar that can go as quick that is street/EMISSIONS legal. Take a look at that C5 TT and you'll see that looks stock on the outside, inside, and under the hood. Nothing has been removed from the interior. No cage and all the sound insulation is there. These 9-second Supras aren't emissions legal therefore they are not street legal. Simply doing a little tweaking on the C5 TT will result in a lot more power, but emissions will be affected. You will have a much quicker C5 TT though. That was my point. BTW, the C5 TT is not a "one off" car. It's an available package.
Jamie-
As for American V6s vs Japanese V6s, it's run what-cha-brung. Truth of the matter is your 13-second Maxima is a solid 15-second Maxima without the NOS. You're Max running NA is no quicker than a V6 F-Body or a 99+ V6 Stang and you'd probably be walked by the smaller 2.5 SVT Contour and a Contour SE V6 would probably be right next to you. Americans have always been known for extracting power from displacement and the Japanese have always been known for extracting power from RPM. Lexus gets 300hp from thier 4.0L V8 and Cadillac does the same. What's the difference?
Dave
You guys COMPLETELY missed my point about the Lingenfelter C5 TT. I said find me a Japanese supercar that can go as quick that is street/EMISSIONS legal. Take a look at that C5 TT and you'll see that looks stock on the outside, inside, and under the hood. Nothing has been removed from the interior. No cage and all the sound insulation is there. These 9-second Supras aren't emissions legal therefore they are not street legal. Simply doing a little tweaking on the C5 TT will result in a lot more power, but emissions will be affected. You will have a much quicker C5 TT though. That was my point. BTW, the C5 TT is not a "one off" car. It's an available package.
Jamie-
As for American V6s vs Japanese V6s, it's run what-cha-brung. Truth of the matter is your 13-second Maxima is a solid 15-second Maxima without the NOS. You're Max running NA is no quicker than a V6 F-Body or a 99+ V6 Stang and you'd probably be walked by the smaller 2.5 SVT Contour and a Contour SE V6 would probably be right next to you. Americans have always been known for extracting power from displacement and the Japanese have always been known for extracting power from RPM. Lexus gets 300hp from thier 4.0L V8 and Cadillac does the same. What's the difference?
Dave
06-29-2002, 05:57 AM
#83
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 454
Originally posted by Dave B
You guys COMPLETELY missed my point about the Lingenfelter C5 TT. I said find me a Japanese supercar that can go as quick that is street/EMISSIONS legal. Take a look at that C5 TT and you'll see that looks stock on the outside, inside, and under the hood. Nothing has been removed from the interior. No cage and all the sound insulation is there. These 9-second Supras aren't emissions legal therefore they are not street legal. Simply doing a little tweaking on the C5 TT will result in a lot more power, but emissions will be affected. You will have a much quicker C5 TT though. That was my point. BTW, the C5 TT is not a "one off" car. It's an available package.
Jamie-
As for American V6s vs Japanese V6s, it's run what-cha-brung. Truth of the matter is your 13-second Maxima is a solid 15-second Maxima without the NOS. You're Max running NA is no quicker than a V6 F-Body or a 99+ V6 Stang and you'd probably be walked by the smaller 2.5 SVT Contour and a Contour SE V6 would probably be right next to you. Americans have always been known for extracting power from displacement and the Japanese have always been known for extracting power from RPM. Lexus gets 300hp from thier 4.0L V8 and Cadillac does the same. What's the difference?
Dave
You guys COMPLETELY missed my point about the Lingenfelter C5 TT. I said find me a Japanese supercar that can go as quick that is street/EMISSIONS legal. Take a look at that C5 TT and you'll see that looks stock on the outside, inside, and under the hood. Nothing has been removed from the interior. No cage and all the sound insulation is there. These 9-second Supras aren't emissions legal therefore they are not street legal. Simply doing a little tweaking on the C5 TT will result in a lot more power, but emissions will be affected. You will have a much quicker C5 TT though. That was my point. BTW, the C5 TT is not a "one off" car. It's an available package.
Jamie-
As for American V6s vs Japanese V6s, it's run what-cha-brung. Truth of the matter is your 13-second Maxima is a solid 15-second Maxima without the NOS. You're Max running NA is no quicker than a V6 F-Body or a 99+ V6 Stang and you'd probably be walked by the smaller 2.5 SVT Contour and a Contour SE V6 would probably be right next to you. Americans have always been known for extracting power from displacement and the Japanese have always been known for extracting power from RPM. Lexus gets 300hp from thier 4.0L V8 and Cadillac does the same. What's the difference?
Dave
06-29-2002, 06:35 AM
#84
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 454
Originally posted by BriGuyMax
When I think about what car I'd be interested in next, the type of engine that is used in a top fuel dragster never even crosses my mind.
I don't really think that you could make a Vette A LOT faster than a supra without an engine swap in the vette to a big displacement crate motor with a blower. Acutally, I don't even think there are but a handful of LS1 vettes in the 9s. With a motor swap in the Supra the same is possible as with the vette.
Pretty much ANY car has to potential to be faster than another car with the right work.
When I think about what car I'd be interested in next, the type of engine that is used in a top fuel dragster never even crosses my mind.
I don't really think that you could make a Vette A LOT faster than a supra without an engine swap in the vette to a big displacement crate motor with a blower. Acutally, I don't even think there are but a handful of LS1 vettes in the 9s. With a motor swap in the Supra the same is possible as with the vette.
Pretty much ANY car has to potential to be faster than another car with the right work.
06-29-2002, 07:45 AM
#85
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,555
Originally posted by 96SE5Spd
I'm not trying to flame you but a V6 stang or F-body is slower than a stock 5 spd Max, contours are quick but still not as fast as the 5spd Max. Both the Camaro and the stang are heavier than the Maxima and have about the same amount of horse power.
I'm not trying to flame you but a V6 stang or F-body is slower than a stock 5 spd Max, contours are quick but still not as fast as the 5spd Max. Both the Camaro and the stang are heavier than the Maxima and have about the same amount of horse power.
Dave
06-29-2002, 10:43 AM
#86
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 191
Originally posted by Dave B
I was talking about Jamie's automatic Maxima vs a 99+ V6 Stang or 96+ 3800 V6 F-Body. The 99+ V6 5 speed Stangs and the 5 speed/auto F-bodies are good for mid to lower 15s@89-90 which is more than competitive with a auto VQ and usually most 5 speeds (most of the guys in here can't drive). The Stang and F-Bodies don't weigh, but more than 100lbs more than an auto Max, but the Stang and F-Bodies are far easier to get off the line (RWD) and they have a more torque.
Dave
I was talking about Jamie's automatic Maxima vs a 99+ V6 Stang or 96+ 3800 V6 F-Body. The 99+ V6 5 speed Stangs and the 5 speed/auto F-bodies are good for mid to lower 15s@89-90 which is more than competitive with a auto VQ and usually most 5 speeds (most of the guys in here can't drive). The Stang and F-Bodies don't weigh, but more than 100lbs more than an auto Max, but the Stang and F-Bodies are far easier to get off the line (RWD) and they have a more torque.
Dave
06-30-2002, 07:07 AM
#87
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 454
Originally posted by Dave B
I was talking about Jamie's automatic Maxima vs a 99+ V6 Stang or 96+ 3800 V6 F-Body. The 99+ V6 5 speed Stangs and the 5 speed/auto F-bodies are good for mid to lower 15s@89-90 which is more than competitive with a auto VQ and usually most 5 speeds (most of the guys in here can't drive). The Stang and F-Bodies don't weigh, but more than 100lbs more than an auto Max, but the Stang and F-Bodies are far easier to get off the line (RWD) and they have a more torque.
Dave
I was talking about Jamie's automatic Maxima vs a 99+ V6 Stang or 96+ 3800 V6 F-Body. The 99+ V6 5 speed Stangs and the 5 speed/auto F-bodies are good for mid to lower 15s@89-90 which is more than competitive with a auto VQ and usually most 5 speeds (most of the guys in here can't drive). The Stang and F-Bodies don't weigh, but more than 100lbs more than an auto Max, but the Stang and F-Bodies are far easier to get off the line (RWD) and they have a more torque.
Dave
06-30-2002, 07:44 AM
#88
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 454
Originally posted by JAIMECBR900
I don't know what track you are used to running at, but last time out I was hard pressed to see a handful of 13's and 12's out of probably 100 domestics (street) and all were very heavily modded. In stock trim, most ran in 14's and even 15's. Based on experience and reading of major publications there are only a few 13 and 12 sec cars out of the box. All of them costing 15-30 thousand OVER their regular run of the mill counterpart. If I had 15-30k to spend on mods, I'm sure I could be a 12 sec car too
.
I am going back to the track on Fri. I am willing to bet that if I were to take a headcount of the probably over 100 cars (domestic V-8's) I would only find the same thing as before. Only a handful run in the 12-13 sec range and are NOT stock.
I would love to see your 13 sec "stock" timeslip. I would be glad to run. As I stated before even in defeat, which I have been beaten many times before, I have no problem in losing to a 12 sec car. I can definetly be very much OK with that fact because: I have a car that is 7 years old, has over 160k miles, paid for in cash, starts every single day, use it every single day, has all the "luxury" items I need (I have the GLE), looks stock, spent only a couple thousand dollars total in mods, AND runs with some cars that have either paid 5 times as much to begin with or spent 5 times as much on mods.
Look around and count how many people have $2k to spend on mods and then count how many have $10k for mods. The math will show you why I still say that the dollar for dollar advantage is on this side of the fence. If money was no object, then I would absolutely agree with you in the "no replacement for displacement" statement.
I don't know what track you are used to running at, but last time out I was hard pressed to see a handful of 13's and 12's out of probably 100 domestics (street) and all were very heavily modded. In stock trim, most ran in 14's and even 15's. Based on experience and reading of major publications there are only a few 13 and 12 sec cars out of the box. All of them costing 15-30 thousand OVER their regular run of the mill counterpart. If I had 15-30k to spend on mods, I'm sure I could be a 12 sec car too
. I am going back to the track on Fri. I am willing to bet that if I were to take a headcount of the probably over 100 cars (domestic V-8's) I would only find the same thing as before. Only a handful run in the 12-13 sec range and are NOT stock.
I would love to see your 13 sec "stock" timeslip. I would be glad to run. As I stated before even in defeat, which I have been beaten many times before, I have no problem in losing to a 12 sec car. I can definetly be very much OK with that fact because: I have a car that is 7 years old, has over 160k miles, paid for in cash, starts every single day, use it every single day, has all the "luxury" items I need (I have the GLE), looks stock, spent only a couple thousand dollars total in mods, AND runs with some cars that have either paid 5 times as much to begin with or spent 5 times as much on mods.
Look around and count how many people have $2k to spend on mods and then count how many have $10k for mods. The math will show you why I still say that the dollar for dollar advantage is on this side of the fence. If money was no object, then I would absolutely agree with you in the "no replacement for displacement" statement.
06-30-2002, 08:08 AM
#89
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,555
Originally posted by 96SE5Spd
I agree with you, my uncle drives a 95 5spd RS with the 3800, off the line he could problably wax me his car doesn't spin at all off the line and most maximas if not driven right will spin all the way through first and half way into second (Physics sucks). But the good thing is were I live most v6 stangs and camaros are autos so its real easy to but them behind you. whats the torque on the 3800, its like 220 or around there isn't it?
I agree with you, my uncle drives a 95 5spd RS with the 3800, off the line he could problably wax me his car doesn't spin at all off the line and most maximas if not driven right will spin all the way through first and half way into second (Physics sucks). But the good thing is were I live most v6 stangs and camaros are autos so its real easy to but them behind you. whats the torque on the 3800, its like 220 or around there isn't it?
Dave
06-30-2002, 08:15 AM
#90
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,555
Originally posted by 96SE5Spd
Every time I read what you write I have to wonder what you are thinking. Today in any auto trader across the united states you can find a 95 Z28 that is stock that cost around 8000 about the same as a max of the same year. a Z28 stock will run mid to low 13s which is faster than a maxima, and you can get a supercharger for a Z28 for less than one for the Max yeah they both run around 3000+ but there are alot more companies that make things for F-bodies than for Maximas. If someone who knows what there doing drops 10k into a Z28 you'll never be able to keep up with them, thats enough money to make that car pull the front wheels off the ground, in fact if you put 3k into a TA with slicks the car will pull the front tires, There is a kid who is not 21 who has a TA that does this a Charged max will still not keep up with that, BTW he runs mid to high 12s. There is no REPACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT whether you like it or not. Don't even try to bring the supra into this,a 93 model in good condition (2JZ with 6spd) still runs around 23k. Yeah reliability is a problem in domestics but it still takes more money to get the same results in our maximas or even in hondas. We can talk all day about what you can do to make a car fast and there are some cars out there that are very easy to mod and that react well to mods like the supra or any factory turbocharged car. But the fact of the matter is that if GM decided to put a factory turbo on an F-body it would be faster than a stock twin supra, and if the supra were still offered in america it would probably cost less. But GM will never do this so it doesn't matter.
Every time I read what you write I have to wonder what you are thinking. Today in any auto trader across the united states you can find a 95 Z28 that is stock that cost around 8000 about the same as a max of the same year. a Z28 stock will run mid to low 13s which is faster than a maxima, and you can get a supercharger for a Z28 for less than one for the Max yeah they both run around 3000+ but there are alot more companies that make things for F-bodies than for Maximas. If someone who knows what there doing drops 10k into a Z28 you'll never be able to keep up with them, thats enough money to make that car pull the front wheels off the ground, in fact if you put 3k into a TA with slicks the car will pull the front tires, There is a kid who is not 21 who has a TA that does this a Charged max will still not keep up with that, BTW he runs mid to high 12s. There is no REPACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT whether you like it or not. Don't even try to bring the supra into this,a 93 model in good condition (2JZ with 6spd) still runs around 23k. Yeah reliability is a problem in domestics but it still takes more money to get the same results in our maximas or even in hondas. We can talk all day about what you can do to make a car fast and there are some cars out there that are very easy to mod and that react well to mods like the supra or any factory turbocharged car. But the fact of the matter is that if GM decided to put a factory turbo on an F-body it would be faster than a stock twin supra, and if the supra were still offered in america it would probably cost less. But GM will never do this so it doesn't matter.
Amen. Like I said before, my buddy will be running 11s in his auto 95 Z28 with just NA mods. All he has is headers, heads, cam, intake manifold, gears, catback, chip, and intake. He runs deep 12s with this. When he replaces the torque converter, he'll be in the 11s. He will be nearly as quick as the 11.5-second single turbo 95 Supra at my track. The Supra has about 15K in mods (turbo setup and built tranny mostly) while my friend has 5K in mods.
While I would much rather have a Supra TT, I know that the best way to fast is with a Domestic V8. It's cheaper, easier to fix, and much easier to go REAL fast.
Dave
06-30-2002, 10:49 AM
#92
Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 35
American cars benefit exponentially more from the same mods that only incrementally improve us. Reason: American engineering is so inefficient to begin with that when you "loosen" some of the restrictions the cars come alive (in a nutshell).
This has got to be one of the most ignorant and overused import argument I've ever heard. The concept that Japanese engineering is some sort of god-like entity, infinite in superiority to those stupid American round-eyes who can't design anything for sh**. What sort of "restrictions" do American built cars have that Japanese cars (sold here in the US) don't? Last time I heard, everyone has to conform to the same emmision/crash test standard, regardless of who manufactures the car. Japanese motors are efficient because they have to be; they lack the inherent power/torque advantages of a larger displacement motor, so they maximize power with what they have. That's why you only see small gains in power from imports; they are already "maximized" from the factory. American engineered motors do not have to be "maximized" from the factory; they have enough displacement to compensate. The funny part is, once those American motors are made more efficient, the import will be seeing taillights, if both cars are equivilently modded.
The Corvette and Supra debate makes me laugh; this Supra that Supra might run 9's at the strip (I have several MPEGS of street Supras running nines, so I don't doubt they can), but how drivable is it on the street? That Lingenfelter Corvette is one of the most flat-out impressive vehicles on this planet. It runs 0-60 in 1.97 sec, and 0-100 in like 4.1 The Vette is at 150 6 seconds after that; can any modded Supra do that? Probably not, because it's not that a Supra can't make that kind of power (it can probably make more), but it's the way that power is delivered that is gonna give it a disadvantage.
BTW, most of the Mustangs/Camaros that get really good MPG on the highway get that because of the overdrive in the gearbox (it's sixth gear on a Camaro). You can turn really low RPM on the highway and still get a good cruise speed.
And I agree, American V6's suck compared to a Japanese V6. The 350Z is gonna ROCK; I'm very happy that Infinity has injected some life into it's new line of cars/motors.
This has got to be one of the most ignorant and overused import argument I've ever heard. The concept that Japanese engineering is some sort of god-like entity, infinite in superiority to those stupid American round-eyes who can't design anything for sh**. What sort of "restrictions" do American built cars have that Japanese cars (sold here in the US) don't? Last time I heard, everyone has to conform to the same emmision/crash test standard, regardless of who manufactures the car. Japanese motors are efficient because they have to be; they lack the inherent power/torque advantages of a larger displacement motor, so they maximize power with what they have. That's why you only see small gains in power from imports; they are already "maximized" from the factory. American engineered motors do not have to be "maximized" from the factory; they have enough displacement to compensate. The funny part is, once those American motors are made more efficient, the import will be seeing taillights, if both cars are equivilently modded.
The Corvette and Supra debate makes me laugh; this Supra that Supra might run 9's at the strip (I have several MPEGS of street Supras running nines, so I don't doubt they can), but how drivable is it on the street? That Lingenfelter Corvette is one of the most flat-out impressive vehicles on this planet. It runs 0-60 in 1.97 sec, and 0-100 in like 4.1 The Vette is at 150 6 seconds after that; can any modded Supra do that? Probably not, because it's not that a Supra can't make that kind of power (it can probably make more), but it's the way that power is delivered that is gonna give it a disadvantage.
BTW, most of the Mustangs/Camaros that get really good MPG on the highway get that because of the overdrive in the gearbox (it's sixth gear on a Camaro). You can turn really low RPM on the highway and still get a good cruise speed.
And I agree, American V6's suck compared to a Japanese V6. The 350Z is gonna ROCK; I'm very happy that Infinity has injected some life into it's new line of cars/motors.
06-30-2002, 12:04 PM
#94
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 454
Originally posted by RiceBurners4LYF
What about other twin-turbo engines...Like the early '90's 300ZX's, '93 Mazda RX-7, or a '94 Mitsu 3000GT? Those can be had for far less than the Supra, right?
What about other twin-turbo engines...Like the early '90's 300ZX's, '93 Mazda RX-7, or a '94 Mitsu 3000GT? Those can be had for far less than the Supra, right?
06-30-2002, 12:32 PM
#95
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 454
Originally posted by CSever05
American cars benefit exponentially more from the same mods that only incrementally improve us. Reason: American engineering is so inefficient to begin with that when you "loosen" some of the restrictions the cars come alive (in a nutshell).
This has got to be one of the most ignorant and overused import argument I've ever heard. The concept that Japanese engineering is some sort of god-like entity, infinite in superiority to those stupid American round-eyes who can't design anything for sh**. What sort of "restrictions" do American built cars have that Japanese cars (sold here in the US) don't? Last time I heard, everyone has to conform to the same emmision/crash test standard, regardless of who manufactures the car. Japanese motors are efficient because they have to be; they lack the inherent power/torque advantages of a larger displacement motor, so they maximize power with what they have. That's why you only see small gains in power from imports; they are already "maximized" from the factory. American engineered motors do not have to be "maximized" from the factory; they have enough displacement to compensate. The funny part is, once those American motors are made more efficient, the import will be seeing taillights, if both cars are equivilently modded.
The Corvette and Supra debate makes me laugh; this Supra that Supra might run 9's at the strip (I have several MPEGS of street Supras running nines, so I don't doubt they can), but how drivable is it on the street? That Lingenfelter Corvette is one of the most flat-out impressive vehicles on this planet. It runs 0-60 in 1.97 sec, and 0-100 in like 4.1 The Vette is at 150 6 seconds after that; can any modded Supra do that? Probably not, because it's not that a Supra can't make that kind of power (it can probably make more), but it's the way that power is delivered that is gonna give it a disadvantage.
BTW, most of the Mustangs/Camaros that get really good MPG on the highway get that because of the overdrive in the gearbox (it's sixth gear on a Camaro). You can turn really low RPM on the highway and still get a good cruise speed.
And I agree, American V6's suck compared to a Japanese V6. The 350Z is gonna ROCK; I'm very happy that Infinity has injected some life into it's new line of cars/motors.
American cars benefit exponentially more from the same mods that only incrementally improve us. Reason: American engineering is so inefficient to begin with that when you "loosen" some of the restrictions the cars come alive (in a nutshell).
This has got to be one of the most ignorant and overused import argument I've ever heard. The concept that Japanese engineering is some sort of god-like entity, infinite in superiority to those stupid American round-eyes who can't design anything for sh**. What sort of "restrictions" do American built cars have that Japanese cars (sold here in the US) don't? Last time I heard, everyone has to conform to the same emmision/crash test standard, regardless of who manufactures the car. Japanese motors are efficient because they have to be; they lack the inherent power/torque advantages of a larger displacement motor, so they maximize power with what they have. That's why you only see small gains in power from imports; they are already "maximized" from the factory. American engineered motors do not have to be "maximized" from the factory; they have enough displacement to compensate. The funny part is, once those American motors are made more efficient, the import will be seeing taillights, if both cars are equivilently modded.
The Corvette and Supra debate makes me laugh; this Supra that Supra might run 9's at the strip (I have several MPEGS of street Supras running nines, so I don't doubt they can), but how drivable is it on the street? That Lingenfelter Corvette is one of the most flat-out impressive vehicles on this planet. It runs 0-60 in 1.97 sec, and 0-100 in like 4.1 The Vette is at 150 6 seconds after that; can any modded Supra do that? Probably not, because it's not that a Supra can't make that kind of power (it can probably make more), but it's the way that power is delivered that is gonna give it a disadvantage.
BTW, most of the Mustangs/Camaros that get really good MPG on the highway get that because of the overdrive in the gearbox (it's sixth gear on a Camaro). You can turn really low RPM on the highway and still get a good cruise speed.
And I agree, American V6's suck compared to a Japanese V6. The 350Z is gonna ROCK; I'm very happy that Infinity has injected some life into it's new line of cars/motors.
Thanks,
Ryan
06-30-2002, 12:46 PM
#96
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 454
Originally posted by JAIMECBR900
It may be an available package on paper, but in reality there are not going to be but 1-2 ever. With a price tag of over 150k and more than 6 mos of waiting, I seriously doubt many people will get one. About as close to a "one of" as you can get.
You totally missed the boat on my analogy as well. The V-6 domestic and V-6 import comparo was due to their proximity in initial price tag. It is an unlevel playing field to compare a 35k car to a 25k car unless you give the 25k car 10k for mods and then run them. If the initial 35k still beats the new and improved 25k car, then the car was and still is better (performance wise). If it does not, then it is just overpriced to begin with.
BTW, I always run what I "brung". I don't run slicks. I don't run race fuel. I don't run w/o a backseat. I don't have a fancy roll cage. I got an intake, exhaust, VB mod, and N2O. Everything else is stock. If I had a 300 page catalog full of every possible performance mod known to man-kind available at my fingertips for any budget from mild to wild, I guess you would have a point about comparing on an even playing field. Since maximas do not have that kind of aftermarket support or availability, you should just give credit where it is due and be done with it.
Consider this for a minute...When the 350Z comes out it will be putting out close to 300 HP from a 6 cyl. Name a domestic with just 6 cyls. w/o a turbo or a S/C that are not "specialty, project, or one-of" that comes close.
It may be an available package on paper, but in reality there are not going to be but 1-2 ever. With a price tag of over 150k and more than 6 mos of waiting, I seriously doubt many people will get one. About as close to a "one of" as you can get.
You totally missed the boat on my analogy as well. The V-6 domestic and V-6 import comparo was due to their proximity in initial price tag. It is an unlevel playing field to compare a 35k car to a 25k car unless you give the 25k car 10k for mods and then run them. If the initial 35k still beats the new and improved 25k car, then the car was and still is better (performance wise). If it does not, then it is just overpriced to begin with.
BTW, I always run what I "brung". I don't run slicks. I don't run race fuel. I don't run w/o a backseat. I don't have a fancy roll cage. I got an intake, exhaust, VB mod, and N2O. Everything else is stock. If I had a 300 page catalog full of every possible performance mod known to man-kind available at my fingertips for any budget from mild to wild, I guess you would have a point about comparing on an even playing field. Since maximas do not have that kind of aftermarket support or availability, you should just give credit where it is due and be done with it.
Consider this for a minute...When the 350Z comes out it will be putting out close to 300 HP from a 6 cyl. Name a domestic with just 6 cyls. w/o a turbo or a S/C that are not "specialty, project, or one-of" that comes close.
07-01-2002, 08:00 AM
#101
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,084
Originally posted by 96SE5Spd
The GMC Envoy, If you'd like I'll list more.
The GMC Envoy, If you'd like I'll list more.
The envoy couldn't hold the 350's jock strap in anything but towing/passenger capacity. Keep dreaming.
Go on and list more.
07-01-2002, 07:52 PM
#103
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,555
Originally posted by CoolMax
Please get off your high-horse.
Please get off your high-horse.
Dave
07-01-2002, 09:47 PM
#104
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,530
Ahh yeah, the classic import vs. domestic debate. I am a maxima owner however I'll be the first one to tell you THIS CAR COSTS TOO MUCH FREAKIN MONEY TO MAKE FAST and has never even been "really fast". Also When you start cranking out the horse power, stuff starts to break. Japanese cars are too freakin expensive to fix. Yes an american car may break down more, but when performance is concerned reliability will go through the floor.
I too am sick of hearing stories that a maxima beat a corvette or mustang. Its usually 1 of 2 things. The mustang driver screwed up. or 2 we're comparing a fully modded (and sometimes with boost and NOS) family sedan to a stock mustang or a mustang with something wrong or a bad run. How many times have you lost to a neon/civic/cavalier because your car wasnt running right or you missed a shift?
Another thing is if you go to our 1/4 mile section, just look at how many people are running high 15s! Ontop of that the vast majority are auto's.
If I were to do it again, I'd buy an american car to hop it up. Cheaper to fix, and cheaper to make go fast. Money does not grow on trees for me so dollar per HP is important (dont ask why i got this car). If I won the lottery would I drive foreign? You bet. But I have more chances of dying driving my car then winning the lotto.
Another thing is the maxima is hardly what I call an enthusiasts car. It is designed to be a grocery getting machine driven by mini-van moms, not a race car. Thats why the real enthusiasts drive real enthusiast cars such as Mustang, Corvette etc. It features all of the items NOT to make it an enthusiasts car such as: heavy weight, front wheel drive, non-independent rear suspension, limited and expensive aftermarket, expensive repairs.
However the Japanese have made one part faster in doller per HP. Motorcycles. The japanese sport bikes run circles around the american sportsters. If you want cheap speed buy a sport bike. My $8000 when-new bike can run 10s with a good enough rider out of the box, and its one of the smaller sized sport bikes.
I too am sick of hearing stories that a maxima beat a corvette or mustang. Its usually 1 of 2 things. The mustang driver screwed up. or 2 we're comparing a fully modded (and sometimes with boost and NOS) family sedan to a stock mustang or a mustang with something wrong or a bad run. How many times have you lost to a neon/civic/cavalier because your car wasnt running right or you missed a shift?
Another thing is if you go to our 1/4 mile section, just look at how many people are running high 15s! Ontop of that the vast majority are auto's.
If I were to do it again, I'd buy an american car to hop it up. Cheaper to fix, and cheaper to make go fast. Money does not grow on trees for me so dollar per HP is important (dont ask why i got this car). If I won the lottery would I drive foreign? You bet. But I have more chances of dying driving my car then winning the lotto.
Another thing is the maxima is hardly what I call an enthusiasts car. It is designed to be a grocery getting machine driven by mini-van moms, not a race car. Thats why the real enthusiasts drive real enthusiast cars such as Mustang, Corvette etc. It features all of the items NOT to make it an enthusiasts car such as: heavy weight, front wheel drive, non-independent rear suspension, limited and expensive aftermarket, expensive repairs.
However the Japanese have made one part faster in doller per HP. Motorcycles. The japanese sport bikes run circles around the american sportsters. If you want cheap speed buy a sport bike. My $8000 when-new bike can run 10s with a good enough rider out of the box, and its one of the smaller sized sport bikes.
07-01-2002, 09:57 PM
#105
Originally posted by ericdwong
Another thing is the maxima is hardly what I call an enthusiasts car. It is designed to be a grocery getting machine driven by mini-van moms, not a race car. Thats why the real enthusiasts drive real enthusiast cars such as Mustang, Corvette etc. It features all of the items NOT to make it an enthusiasts car such as: heavy weight, front wheel drive, non-independent rear suspension, limited and expensive aftermarket, expensive repairs.
Another thing is the maxima is hardly what I call an enthusiasts car. It is designed to be a grocery getting machine driven by mini-van moms, not a race car. Thats why the real enthusiasts drive real enthusiast cars such as Mustang, Corvette etc. It features all of the items NOT to make it an enthusiasts car such as: heavy weight, front wheel drive, non-independent rear suspension, limited and expensive aftermarket, expensive repairs.
I have never considered the Maxima a grocery getter. A Buick Roadmaster is a grocery getter, or a Dodge Caravan, or a Camry.
The Maxima wasn't made to be an enthusiasts car, I agree, but I really do believe it is as close as you can get to a sports car with 4 doors. It's a great car for something you want to go fast but is still respectable and has alot of room, built-in options, and 4 doors.
And if that's the argument, an Accord, an Integra, and ESPECIALLY a Civic was not made to be an enthusiasts car.
your theory is somewhat flawed, my friend. You're discounting 90% of the import enthusiasts out there. Not everyone can afford the base price of even a used TT Supra or Skyline.
My last car was a Camaro. it is why I will NEVER buy anything domestic again. $3000 for a engine from a junkyard is not cheap....especially when you have to buy 3 of them in 6 years.
IanS
07-01-2002, 09:59 PM
#106
All YOUR grammer belong to me
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,400
Maxima's are the fastest cars in their catagory. 6.5 seconds 0-60 out of a 1995 190HP V6 maxima is very impressive if you ask me. Just think if Nissan engineered VQ technology into a 4.6L V8. Well I can tell you that particular V8 would destroy any other 4.6L in the world performance wise.
Maxima's are sleepers becuase just like Eric D wong said, who is so full of hate, they are grocery getters. But that doesn't mean they can't be made very sport car like in handing/looks/performance.
The Maxima is a totally different car than a 300zx, Supra, Mustang or Camaro. It's main intention was NOT to be a sports car (as it's FWD is pretty good proof), rather a midsize cruiser with smooth strong power unlike anything else in it's class. That doesn't mean it can't compete with sports/muscle cars to a certain degree.
People, take the Maxima for what it is, and take Sports/muscle cars for what they are, and let's end this gay debate.
Maxima's are sleepers becuase just like Eric D wong said, who is so full of hate, they are grocery getters. But that doesn't mean they can't be made very sport car like in handing/looks/performance.
The Maxima is a totally different car than a 300zx, Supra, Mustang or Camaro. It's main intention was NOT to be a sports car (as it's FWD is pretty good proof), rather a midsize cruiser with smooth strong power unlike anything else in it's class. That doesn't mean it can't compete with sports/muscle cars to a certain degree.
People, take the Maxima for what it is, and take Sports/muscle cars for what they are, and let's end this gay debate.
07-01-2002, 10:01 PM
#107
All YOUR grammer belong to me
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,400
Originally posted by iansw
Then why do you go to the track?
The Maxima wasn't made to be an enthusiasts car, I agree, but I really do believe it is as close as you can get to a sports car with 4 doors. It's a great car for something you want to go fast but is still respectable and has alot of room, built-in options, and 4 doors.
And if that's the argument, an Accord, an Integra, and ESPECIALLY a Civic was not made to be an enthusiasts car.
your theory is somewhat flawed, my friend. You're discounting 90% of the import enthusiasts out there. Not everyone can afford the base price of even a used TT Supra or Skyline.
Then why do you go to the track?
The Maxima wasn't made to be an enthusiasts car, I agree, but I really do believe it is as close as you can get to a sports car with 4 doors. It's a great car for something you want to go fast but is still respectable and has alot of room, built-in options, and 4 doors.
And if that's the argument, an Accord, an Integra, and ESPECIALLY a Civic was not made to be an enthusiasts car.
your theory is somewhat flawed, my friend. You're discounting 90% of the import enthusiasts out there. Not everyone can afford the base price of even a used TT Supra or Skyline.
07-01-2002, 10:21 PM
#108
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,530
Originally posted by iansw
Then why do you go to the track?
Then why do you go to the track?
I have never considered the Maxima a grocery getter. A Buick Roadmaster is a grocery getter, or a Dodge Caravan, or a Camry.
The Maxima wasn't made to be an enthusiasts car, I agree, but I really do believe it is as close as you can get to a sports car with 4 doors. It's a great car for something you want to go fast but is still respectable and has alot of room, built-in options, and 4 doors.
And if that's the argument, an Accord, an Integra, and ESPECIALLY a Civic was not made to be an enthusiasts car.
your theory is somewhat flawed, my friend.
You're discounting 90% of the import enthusiasts out there. Not everyone can afford the base price of even a used TT Supra or Skyline.
My last car was a Camaro. it is why I will NEVER buy anything domestic again. $3000 for a engine from a junkyard is not cheap....especially when you have to buy 3 of them in 6 years.
07-01-2002, 10:37 PM
#109
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,530
Originally posted by Craig Mack
Maxima's are the fastest cars in their catagory. 6.5 seconds 0-60 out of a 1995 190HP V6 maxima is very impressive if you ask me.
Maxima's are the fastest cars in their catagory. 6.5 seconds 0-60 out of a 1995 190HP V6 maxima is very impressive if you ask me.
Just think if Nissan engineered VQ technology into a 4.6L V8. Well I can tell you that particular V8 would destroy any other 4.6L in the world performance wise.
Maxima's are sleepers becuase just like Eric D wong said, who is so full of hate, they are grocery getters. But that doesn't mean they can't be made very sport car like in handing/looks/performance.
The Maxima is a totally different car than a 300zx, Supra, Mustang or Camaro. It's main intention was NOT to be a sports car
(as it's FWD is pretty good proof), rather a midsize cruiser with smooth strong power unlike anything else in it's class. That doesn't mean it can't compete with sports/muscle cars to a certain degree.
People, take the Maxima for what it is, and take Sports/muscle cars for what they are, and let's end this gay debate.
People, take the Maxima for what it is, and take Sports/muscle cars for what they are, and let's end this gay debate.
07-02-2002, 03:26 PM
#110
All YOUR grammer belong to me
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,400
Originally posted by ericdwong
They got competition. Acura CL-S and Passat W8.
They got competition. Acura CL-S and Passat W8.
Wrong catagories. Only the 2k2 Max is beginning to fit into that catogory..the Max is a midsize car and the CL-S is a near luxury coupe.
Handling? Please tell me you are joking. This car can't handle at all. Its just too heavy to handle like a champ. Not to mention the 62/38 uneven weight balance. Add that with mcpherson struts in the front and a beam in the back and a super flexible chassis and you really got a handlin machine!
I've gotten compliments from people who drive other Maxima's, camaro's, mustangs, ect. ect. on how TIGHT my maxima takes curves. A Maxima can be made to handle very well.
Really? Then why is it hailed as the 4DSC or "Cars like it 0".
OK, I'll take the max for what it is. Family sedan. I bought the wrong class of car, and within that class definately the wrong car.
07-03-2002, 06:04 AM
#111
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 454
Originally posted by JAIMECBR900
4.2L/270HP is close to 300...
The envoy couldn't hold the 350's jock strap in anything but towing/passenger capacity. Keep dreaming.
Go on and list more.
4.2L/270HP is close to 300...
The envoy couldn't hold the 350's jock strap in anything but towing/passenger capacity. Keep dreaming.
Go on and list more.
Ryan
07-03-2002, 08:15 AM
#112
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,530
Originally posted by Craig Mack
Wrong catagories. Only the 2k2 Max is beginning to fit into that catogory..the Max is a midsize car and the CL-S is a near luxury coupe.
Wrong catagories. Only the 2k2 Max is beginning to fit into that catogory..the Max is a midsize car and the CL-S is a near luxury coupe.
Actually it's 61/39.
I've gotten compliments from people who drive other Maxima's, camaro's, mustangs, ect. ect. on how TIGHT my maxima takes curves. A Maxima can be made to handle very well.
I've gotten compliments from people who drive other Maxima's, camaro's, mustangs, ect. ect. on how TIGHT my maxima takes curves. A Maxima can be made to handle very well.
Becuase there is no other car that can keep up with it in it's catagory. Besides it's just marketing
Yes and you sure do b!tch alot about it. The Maxima is a far greater cars then what most teenagers get so just STFU and be thankful for what you have or sell it and buy your own damn "muscle" or "fast" car.
07-03-2002, 08:23 AM
#113
Jesus. Shut up and sell your Max and/or leave the Forum.
Everything you're saying is very biased and mostly a matter of opinion, and not fact. You can't argue with someone when the argument is about opinion.
You think your Max is slow, can't handle, and is a grocery getter. Fine, sell it.
I think my Max looks SWEEET, handles pretty darned good for a 4 Door, and is mad fast for a daily driver.
The only point I agree with is that Mods cost too much. This is of course changing because the resale value of the 4th Gens are going down, and more people are buying them to mod them, which creates demand in the marketplace, and creates new products, raises competition, and ultimatley lowers the prices of the Mods.
IanS OWNZ JOO!
Everything you're saying is very biased and mostly a matter of opinion, and not fact. You can't argue with someone when the argument is about opinion.
You think your Max is slow, can't handle, and is a grocery getter. Fine, sell it.
I think my Max looks SWEEET, handles pretty darned good for a 4 Door, and is mad fast for a daily driver.
The only point I agree with is that Mods cost too much. This is of course changing because the resale value of the 4th Gens are going down, and more people are buying them to mod them, which creates demand in the marketplace, and creates new products, raises competition, and ultimatley lowers the prices of the Mods.
IanS OWNZ JOO!
07-03-2002, 08:36 AM
#114
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,084
Originally posted by 96SE5Spd
This web site is suposed to help us with our cars not makes us argue about engines, we could keep that up for years and still not get anywhere, Lets stick to the MAXIMA and try to get somthing else done.
Ryan
This web site is suposed to help us with our cars not makes us argue about engines, we could keep that up for years and still not get anywhere, Lets stick to the MAXIMA and try to get somthing else done.
Ryan
As for Mr. Wong; If you hate your maxima so much, then sell it and get what ever it is you do want. Crying in your beer is not going to make it any better. Looking at your mods list, I can see why you would say that it's expensive to have one. Maybe if I ordered NASA to bring me back a moon rock to put in my ashtray to make my car better, it too would get expensive too
. Bottom line is; you don't like your car then good for you. As you stated, the domestic car you desire is cheaper than it's nissan counterpart. I'm sure you could drive around the corner and find a dealer. Go and buy what you want and trade your God awful maxima in on it.
07-03-2002, 09:15 AM
#115
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,530
Originally posted by iansw
Jesus. Shut up and sell your Max and/or leave the Forum.
Jesus. Shut up and sell your Max and/or leave the Forum.
Everything you're saying is very biased and mostly a matter of opinion, and not fact. You can't argue with someone when the argument is about opinion.
Is FRONT WHEEL DRIVE. Has REALLY BAD high and low speed crash test results (95-96) and below average for 00 up (www.iihs.org). Has LOUSY depreciation (www.kbb.com, www.edmunds.com).
You think your Max is slow, can't handle, and is a grocery getter. Fine, sell it.
I think my Max looks SWEEET, handles pretty darned good for a 4 Door, and is mad fast for a daily driver.
The only point I agree with is that Mods cost too much. This is of course changing because the resale value of the 4th Gens are going down, and more people are buying them to mod them, which creates demand in the marketplace, and creates new products, raises competition, and ultimatley lowers the prices of the Mods.
The only point I agree with is that Mods cost too much. This is of course changing because the resale value of the 4th Gens are going down, and more people are buying them to mod them, which creates demand in the marketplace, and creates new products, raises competition, and ultimatley lowers the prices of the Mods.
07-03-2002, 09:48 PM
#117
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,555
Eric:
Weight?
An F-body weighs 3300-3600lbs depending on model (base Z28 to the up level TA). The Corvette weighs 3200-3400lbs depending on model (Z06 to convertible auto). The 96+ Mustang weighs 3200-3500lbs depeding on model (Cobra to GT). The 4th gen Maxima........2900-3100lbs.
Handling?
My Maxima EASILY outhandles my 94 Z28 which BTW, also had a solid axle in the back too. The Mustang GT and many VWs also have these solid axles if you didn't know. Have you ever driven a Mustang, especially the older 5.0s? They handle like a wet porkchop. They stick well, but the everything else is horrible. They lack feel, have **** poor brakes, and the suspension is awful. I see you listed Mercedes as a "good handling car". Nearly all the Benz's sold are shod with crap tires and soft suspensions. I wouldn't call a 2-ton Benz a "handler". Nor would I call the new W8 Passat a handler. The W8 has been critisized for being very nose heavy and exhibits severe understeer.
Acceleration? My 4th gen Maxima with simple bolt ons is damn close to being as quick as my 94 Z28 was with a catback. The only thing holding my Maxima back is off the line traction. My Z28 with a catback went 99mph where as my Maxima is going nearly 98mph. A car that's running deep into the 90mph range is fast. There's not many cars out there that run over 90mph in the 1/4 mile and the ones that do are typically very expensive and/or built for the sole purpose of speed. I'm proud on my little Nissan. I get to go fast in a pretty luxurious car for very little money. I couldn't be happier.
Lay down the crack pipe Did you really think you could extract 400hp from a NA DOHC 3.0 V6? It's costs money to go fast and clearly you have any money so obviously you wouldn't have been able to make this sedan go fast anyways. Right? It takes BMW 5.0 liters to get 400hp NA, why you think you can get 400hp NA with your 3.0? Sure, there are plenty of fast Honda's running around, but they break down just like any other car that wasn't designed for super high power outputs which brings us back to the money thing. It takes money to go fast and money isn't something you have therefore maybe you should lay off on trying to have a fast car. Corvettes, BMWs, and even Supra TTs break down too as I saw at a Solo II event last weekend.
If you really wanted to go fast for cheap in the Maxima the answer is quite simple. NOS and slicks. That's EASY and DEEP 13s for about $1000. It's not brain surgery. Low 13s puts you in the ranks of the infamous LS1, the quickest BMWs, any Benz, nearly every Stang, etc. When buying the Maxima, most of us understood that a Maxima is not a drag car and making a 11-second sedan is quite stupid and rediculous.
Dave
Weight?
An F-body weighs 3300-3600lbs depending on model (base Z28 to the up level TA). The Corvette weighs 3200-3400lbs depending on model (Z06 to convertible auto). The 96+ Mustang weighs 3200-3500lbs depeding on model (Cobra to GT). The 4th gen Maxima........2900-3100lbs.
Handling?
My Maxima EASILY outhandles my 94 Z28 which BTW, also had a solid axle in the back too. The Mustang GT and many VWs also have these solid axles if you didn't know. Have you ever driven a Mustang, especially the older 5.0s? They handle like a wet porkchop. They stick well, but the everything else is horrible. They lack feel, have **** poor brakes, and the suspension is awful. I see you listed Mercedes as a "good handling car". Nearly all the Benz's sold are shod with crap tires and soft suspensions. I wouldn't call a 2-ton Benz a "handler". Nor would I call the new W8 Passat a handler. The W8 has been critisized for being very nose heavy and exhibits severe understeer.
Acceleration? My 4th gen Maxima with simple bolt ons is damn close to being as quick as my 94 Z28 was with a catback. The only thing holding my Maxima back is off the line traction. My Z28 with a catback went 99mph where as my Maxima is going nearly 98mph. A car that's running deep into the 90mph range is fast. There's not many cars out there that run over 90mph in the 1/4 mile and the ones that do are typically very expensive and/or built for the sole purpose of speed. I'm proud on my little Nissan. I get to go fast in a pretty luxurious car for very little money. I couldn't be happier.
Lay down the crack pipe Did you really think you could extract 400hp from a NA DOHC 3.0 V6? It's costs money to go fast and clearly you have any money so obviously you wouldn't have been able to make this sedan go fast anyways. Right? It takes BMW 5.0 liters to get 400hp NA, why you think you can get 400hp NA with your 3.0? Sure, there are plenty of fast Honda's running around, but they break down just like any other car that wasn't designed for super high power outputs which brings us back to the money thing. It takes money to go fast and money isn't something you have therefore maybe you should lay off on trying to have a fast car. Corvettes, BMWs, and even Supra TTs break down too as I saw at a Solo II event last weekend.
If you really wanted to go fast for cheap in the Maxima the answer is quite simple. NOS and slicks. That's EASY and DEEP 13s for about $1000. It's not brain surgery. Low 13s puts you in the ranks of the infamous LS1, the quickest BMWs, any Benz, nearly every Stang, etc. When buying the Maxima, most of us understood that a Maxima is not a drag car and making a 11-second sedan is quite stupid and rediculous.
Dave
07-04-2002, 12:04 AM
#119
Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 35
The Maxima wasn't made to be an enthusiasts car, I agree, but I really do believe it is as close as you can get to a sports car with 4 doors.
07-04-2002, 02:30 AM
#120
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 883
look you little ****...go pull that bird out of your car and go run with richard simmons on a beach somewhere..."000h erik wong you're a pony!"
Originally posted by ericdwong
This is gonna be my last post in this thread:
Most of my facts are facts and not opinions. What is so opinionated about these: This car has these items that make it handle poorly: 61/39 (or was it 62/38) weight distribution. Over 3000 pounds of inertia to overcome on usually 215-235 wide tires (skinny). Has a NON INDEPENDENT rear axle, great for bumps and refinement... Has a superflexible chassis (read- crash tests and how well FSTB and subframes work). Even consumer reports- the most nonenthusiast magazine of them all said in 98 the 4th gen's suspension "exhibited rubbery side to side jolts" over bumps.
Is FRONT WHEEL DRIVE. Has REALLY BAD high and low speed crash test results (95-96) and below average for 00 up (www.iihs.org). Has LOUSY depreciation (www.kbb.com, www.edmunds.com).
I wish I could but nissan depreciation nailed me in the butt. Thats why I will never buy another one again. Believe me once I get some $ together I will loose this car very fast.
This car will still never be regarded as a performance/enthusiast car. Try getting more then 400 HP out of this 3.0 v6.
This is gonna be my last post in this thread:
Most of my facts are facts and not opinions. What is so opinionated about these: This car has these items that make it handle poorly: 61/39 (or was it 62/38) weight distribution. Over 3000 pounds of inertia to overcome on usually 215-235 wide tires (skinny). Has a NON INDEPENDENT rear axle, great for bumps and refinement... Has a superflexible chassis (read- crash tests and how well FSTB and subframes work). Even consumer reports- the most nonenthusiast magazine of them all said in 98 the 4th gen's suspension "exhibited rubbery side to side jolts" over bumps.
Is FRONT WHEEL DRIVE. Has REALLY BAD high and low speed crash test results (95-96) and below average for 00 up (www.iihs.org). Has LOUSY depreciation (www.kbb.com, www.edmunds.com).
I wish I could but nissan depreciation nailed me in the butt. Thats why I will never buy another one again. Believe me once I get some $ together I will loose this car very fast.
This car will still never be regarded as a performance/enthusiast car. Try getting more then 400 HP out of this 3.0 v6.