Big brake Kit
 

For those of you that have a Big Brake kit or those of you who know, does it really make that big of a difference relative to the money it costs?
I am wondering if it is that neccessary, I understand that for stricly track cars it is, but for track/street cars is what I am looking at.

<%
if Car_Brakes > Car_Tyres then
response.write "Buy better tyres"
else
response.write "Repair your braking system"
end if
%>

in other words... there's NO reason for you to have a bigger brake kit on a street car...your brakes were designed for your car and it's weight. if you FADE them, that's different... that just means you need to diagnosis your braking system.

well i thought the bigger rotors were less likely to warp than the stock rotors...wouldnt that save you money in the long run? (depending on how long the stockers last, cuz some people say theyre horrible and others say theyre fine..)

no.

two ways to look at this... bigger rotors will always cost more than smaller rotors, unless it's a mass produced piece. Most big brake kits that don't have a two piece rotor design are typically an OEM rotor from some other car...either redrilled or just added to the kit.

and, if you get autozone/checker rotors, you can just bring back the rotor for a free replacement.

that's why you rock the BlehmCo kit withe OEM calipers and larger rotors....though in my case I'm about to switch to the OEM 6th-gen calipers also. The 6th gen rotors and calipers are about the same $$ as the 5th gen ones....not a TRUE BBK, but gives some additonal friction surface area, which can reduce fade.....

the other advantage is you can buy the brake pads/hardware for the 6th gen calipers at any auto store or dealer too, and don't have to order them!

as for TRUE BBKs, I don't personally see a need for them unless you're tracking the car....

If you increase HP of your car, you will also need to increase its braking ability. For people on a budget that do not race their car, stainless steel lines, some good fluid like Motul RBF600 and brake pads will be just fine. I run TTZ calipers with my Blehmco kit on 04 Maxima rotors- from Irotors and I find the kits stopping power exceptional. Mash the brakes a 140MPH and your Max will stop like a true sports car (no GM or Ford need to apply here) with no shaking or fade. You need to understand there are couple of different brake fades, with stock pads and rotors you most likely going to get green fade which is caused by the OEM pads. I'm going with the Blehmco rear kit in the near future to keep the brake bias in check.

yes and no. you only need to improve the braking system if you cannot lock up your tyres or are experiencing fade. you should not experience fade from a freeway stop or frequent city stops. if you do, you have a bigger problem on your hand (ie. bad fluid, MC going out, bad prop valve).

if you disagree... imagine the type of lawsuit car makers would have to deal with cause of a simple freeway stop faded their brakes.

two things...got any data to back this up? and, when/where do you go 140mph so i can avoid your city...

I dissagree, most fade you will experience on a Nissan is GREEN FADE, nothing else. This is due to gasses building up between the brake pad and the surface of the rotor. When trying to apply the brakes you are trying to overcome the gasses and you basically get a stiff pedal with no brakes.

As far as doing 140MPH, I do things like that in places where I know its safe, and I was just testing out my brakes. I don't need no scientific data to back up my own results, its MY car that I drive daily and I know it stops far better with the big brake setup than with OEM sized rotors, and calipers- Hawk HPS pads, Goodridge lines.

man, I lock my brakes with OEM rotors - pad at least twice a day in the bone dry road. The ****!ng abs is kicking in way too earlier - I want pull that stupid fuse out or put on switch likes rally- race cars.

I will tell what thou I carry like four or even one passenger the brakes will over heat very fast and warp. that how I warp my rotors all the time .
I refuse to carry any pass.

i second him, i currently have the blehmco bbk and i love it, close calls are no onger that close and all i really hyave is the larger rotors ss line and greenstuff pads, so when the more surface area calipers go in, all hell will be kept in its place. but if u really dont push the car/ brake that much stick with the oem's

My car stopped fine with the OEM brakes...it was not ultimate braking force that was my concern but these three reasons:
1. I had already warped the OEM rotors twice in less than 12k miles and just did not wanna put up with a lifetime of rotor warping.
2. I wanted to improve the ride and handling by removing unsprung weight -which I did, by no less than 8 pounds per wheel for the brakes alone with the two-piece rotors and the forged aluminum calipers
3. The bling factor: the stock brakes looked teeny-tiny behind my very light, open SSRs.....the car looked like a riced-out Civic with their 10 inch rotors behind 18" wheels. Yuck.

No complaints whatsoever about the install. There was some initial squeaking which was resolved with shims between the pads and the caliper's pistons, dead quiet since. I'm using Wilwood's 'Q' compound pads and they still have 80% of material after 13k miles

http://www.cardomain.com/id/elgalo

what autozone brand of brake pads are you using?

if you get a good set of aftermarket pads (Hawk, Porterfield, Carbotech, etc), you're not going to experience "gassing", which is typical of brake pads of the 70s and 80s.

really? hahah, screw actual testing, the butt dyno is the gospel!

by the way, a friend's '94 Q45 will stop just around a best of 100' from 60mph with kumho 712s, X-drilled rotors, and hawk HP+ pads. My CRX, on victoracers, 10.3" blank rotors, hawk HP+ pads, valvoline synthetic brake fluid, will stop around 120'. There's a discrepancy of roughly 10'...but, the data is there....the Q45 has shorter stopping distances after six stops.

Now, my CRX's brakes FEELS MUCH BETTER than the Q45's brakes. but, does it mean they STOP better? Nope. DATA > your theories.

However, on a track my CRX will last an entire race without fade, the Q wouldn't.

you may THINK it stops better... but until you TEST it, you're only talking out of your butt [dyno].

and, I haven't seen a Civic with 18s in a long time, outside of a car show, that is.

i personally think.. if you are into spirited driving and brake hard.. its worth getting a BBK.

ahaha nm i looked it up ; )

I think a low cost bbk like mine (13" cobra/300z calipers) Matt's or the 2k4 are all worth it. Why? I've said this time and time again. The maxima is the largest Nissan Sedan that Nissan still uses the single piston caliper and the smallish 11.x dia rotor. Even as the maxima's weight went up from the 3-gen-4-gen(lighter actually),2k 5-gen to the 2k3 5-gen, they all used the same similar brakes.

If you drive your maxima at 40% all the time sure, you won't need it. But IMHO, even a few hard stops will start compromising the stock brake performance.

With my 13" cobra rotor/300z calipers + 1" larger Z31 rotors (on stock calipers), the improvement on my 3 gen is nothing short of amazing. And I never had problems on my stock setup either (as I thought they were adequate also). But after having this, I would never go back. Just the amount of feel is worth it. To get the car to haul down, I no longer have to stand on the pedal to get right up to the limit. I can modulate far from the "standing" threshhold. Which means it's alot easier to keep the brakes from going on full on lock or abs activation.

I mean, you guys have no problems spending $ on Y pipes, wheel/tires/, suspension stuff etc.... Any one of the above BBKs are on par as any one of the power/suspension mods I mention. ie.. amount of improvement felt.

Jeff92SE,

the main problem, which is probablly discouraging most people (and making this a generally prohibitive mod to the regulars) is that they just won't fit under stock rims.

After considering most people did a wheel rim upgrade, Only those few that didn't get the rims for looks and more for performance effect will then consider breaks now that they have the potential to get them.


After all is said and done, if you went with even your type of kit, matt blehm kitt, or big bux brembos/ ap racing, your spending atleast a few grand.

Yea and a y pipe costs about 150 bux (if you buy some cheap one). That's the main difference to me.

Then you should look into using the entire 2k4 setup. I believe that is the best chance at fitting this bbk under a set of oem wheels. But you might have to find a set of 6-gen 2k4 wheels also. I saw a post about it.

i think bbk are really worth it. personally i think stop power is more imporant than go power. i too was sick of warping rotors with the stock set up. i went from the 300zx TT retrofit to the AP bbk, and all i gotta say about that is, i wish i started out with the ap bbk.

What 300z retro did you use? You won't really see a diff in braking distance performance if you used the small oem 300z rotors.

feel vs. actual is two different things.

stainless steel lines do NOTHING for decreasing braking distances... they do make the pedal have a firmer FEEL.

and like someone said, bigger brakes = bigger wheels. in most cases, a bigger wheel = more weight.

of course, the 17" stock SE wheel is a whopping 45lbs+. reducing your unsprung weight of 5lbs at each corner by reducing the weight of the rotor is just replaced with a heavier wheel and pushing the weight out further from the hub, making it harder to stop.

problem is, people don't fix their OEM system to provide the best/shortest stopping distances before going to brand new big braking systems. So, their data (aka, "my butt dyno says so, therefore it's true") is flawed.

bottom line, are BBK worth it? not if you just use it as a street car. the car's OEM brakes work fine, as long as you're not an idiot (read: do 140mph stops or drive 140mph on any public street) or do endurance races (i've tracked my Maxima on stock pads and felt some fade).

Stock Y pipes, ecus, intakes work fine as stock also.

For the improvement that the 13" rotors and 4 piston calipers give, it's well worth the few lbs the 17" wheel needs to use them. You can get volks that are lighter than stock also. Also most if not all modded maximas here (bbk or not) use at least a 17" wheel now. So that's a moot point. I guess you just have to drive a maxima with front and rear bbk (like mine) to make a judgement.

Except the stock Y-pipe is inefficient. But, agreed, the stock ECU and intake work fine (I haven't seen a dyno plot that shows an improvement over the entire RPM range).

what improvement is that?
(Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting there ISN'T an improvement... but, how do you know if there is without data to back your "opinion"?)

Stock brakes are as "inefficent" vs bbk brakes. My JWT ecu works just fine too.

You are suggesting just that or else you wouldn't be asking the question. How can adding a larger torque member(ie.. a rotor that's 1" larger) and 3 more pistons of clamping pressure NOT increase the force applied onto the rotors? I ran this setup w/o the rear upgrade. It was very evident (as evident as your crx/Q example) that the fronts were doing WAY more work then before. That's what prompted me to do the rears also. Also if the theory wasn't sound, why would the fronts be locking earlier than before? And why did adding 1" larger rotors in the rear fix that problem? If I didn't have every reason to believe that the fronts were doing more work, I wouldn't have touched the rears. I have also read comments from almost everyone here that has actually run bbk, that the braking is MUCH improved.

For reference, a 2002 Q45 published 60-0 is about 137ft. I've also seen a 2003 test of 118ft for the same so I don't know A 1991 Honda CRX si is about 154 ft. I don't know why but it seems the stock Q beats the little Honda. I fail to see how a simple non-bbk upgrades to the Q can get it down to 100ft. You do know that is supercar territory?
wrx sti and Lancer EVOs are about 100-111 ft. A Porsche 911 GT3 is 120ft. The newer Corvette is about 100ft.

Jeff, I currently have the 6th-gen rotors with 5th-gen OEM calipers via the Blehm kit...it just squeezes under the OEM 17's....

I ALSO have in my basement a set of 6th gen calipers that I plan on putting on. When I changed my pads a couple weeks ago, I did a "dry" test-fit of the calipers. They are direct bolt-up, but they DO NOT fit under the 17" SE rims, they contact the curved area of the rim just outside of the hub center. My "guesstimate" is that a 10mm spacer would be required to fit the 6th gen rotors AND calipers under the SE 17's.

Now, I will have no problem when I put them on with my G35 rims with 30mm offset, but some of us have to run the smaller rims in the winter (this area's streets are no place for low-profile tires in the winter!)

...if only there was a BBK (2-piston calipers at least) that would fit under our stockers, I'm sure there would be alot of people with them. I myself am not sure if I will put the 6th gen calipers on, knowing that when the winter comes I'd have to either switch my OEM calipers back in (PITA) or install spacers with the accompanying longer lugs (also a PITA)....

You could spend more moeny and get larger wheels, just get a higher profile tire. PITA though....

One suggestion is to see if you can find some 17" G/Z wheels that will clear the 6 gen bbk setup. You can throw some winter tires on those and the 17" versions are fairly cheap. I'm not 100% sure if those will clear but there's a good chance the will. 17" winter tires should not be too bad for these

well...that would be the obvious solution....but let me try explaining to the wife why I need THREE sets of wheels for my car....that will go over well, I'm sure. :chuckle:

Haha I HEAR you man! I think that is why we are always searching for the budget mods! hehe

You could sell your stock wheels/tires and buy a set of G/Z wheels/tires. So you still have 2 sets. Actually a set of 17" Z wheels might be a better choice as more of their wheels have better clearance? I know the expensive Track edition Volks will clear but I do believe some of their other normal wheels will also clear the factory brembos? If they clear those then you are "good" I think

**** lolol ****
 

Jeff talking about the rotors 6 gen... you might have to find a set of 6-gen 2k4 wheels also...Which ones 17" or 18 as well?????

heh ok guys....it's obvious to ALL in this discussion that you can get around the BBK clearance issue by getting rims with more...um....CLEARANCE....

The point is, ther are ALOT of people here on the org that may not want to get aftermarket rims for one reason or another - maybe wheel theft is high in their area, maybe they like the stock look, whatever....

so I think the discussion needs to go back to brake improvement solutions STAYING WITHIN the factory wheel sizes (and guys with OEM 16's, you're pretty much S.O.L.)....

as for me, you can see I have plenty of clearance with my summer rims, and like I said, a 10mm spacer on the OEM rims would probably clear the 6th gen rotors/calipers by a bit

with 6th-gen rotors and 5th-gen calipers (blehmco kit):
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member...3_299_full.jpg

I never run AutoZone pads on my Maxima, its only seen Hawk HPS after the OEMs wore off, on my TTZ calipers I run Hawks. I did a test for ya, go up to 100MPH and nail the brakes, the same run with stock brakes in a stock Maxima with stock brakes. The stockers where smoking at the stop and had faded on just ONE run, it took bout 15 cars MORE to stop the stock GLE auto 02 Max than it did take my 01 GXE with Blehmco/TTZ/Hawk setup. We have a TEST track behind my work where we can hit insane speeds, its designed for drivability issues and has alot of diff conditions where you can drive the car under. I have ran Porterfields and Hawk Blues on my SE-R with the AD22VF brake kit off a Sunny GTI-R, and I had better pedal feel, brakes always stopped without a problem for me, even when doing 140MPH down the long stretch of Phoenix International Raceway....

I aint no Civic ricer here, I don't wanna be talked to like I'm one eighter. What I do with my car, on whatever street shouldn't be any of your problem. Your not payn for the road, my car, tires, or my bail $$$, so why do you care ?

Great... you're applying more torque to the brakes... yet, you're not decreasing stopping distances.

yet, no data backs any of their "claims". until i see some TESTING...

published... nice. those are also averages.

with 11 more years of development, ABS, and better tyres, i would hope so :)

point is, you're not going to decrease initial stopping distances with a bigger brake kit, unless you use stickier tyres.

the test we did was very generic. mapped out a stopping point and recorded how far it took to bring it to a halt.

For the Q, we did 6 stops... 4 without ABS, 2 with. the final stop brought it down to 100' exactly. But, there's roughly 10' of discrepancy due to MPH changes, actual braking point, etc.

For the CRX, it was on cold Victoracers (R-compound DOT legal race tyres) and hawk HP+ (mixed street/track pad). my CRX, if given a good bit of time to warm up the tyres would stop under 100', I'm sure. but, we were looking at cold initial stops (typical of when you need to use your brakes...panic stops where you haven't been braking a whole lot before). hence, my CRX's subpar 120' stop.

At one point, i did testing of my CRX's 9.5" brakes...best of 155'. swapped to wilwood dynalite calipers and 11" Corrrado rotors, got a best of 156'. did a tyre/wheel change, got 134'. Didn't test what the 9.5" brakes would have done with the same set of wheels/tyres.

you can SAY how your BBK is better, but, until you are able to provide data (ie. go do some testing, with fresh OEM brakes and aftermarket)... you guys are staking claims without factual backing. what next, Grounding kits make your car faster? or the tornado makes your car faster?

people make a lot of claims but never have any facts or data to back their claims.

Nice. Want to address the other parts of the post too??

Please explain how could that be possible. I'm running 245-45-17 BFG Comp tires. How could you say I COULDN'T when I haven't "tested"? Correct??

what tyres were used on the GLE vs. the GXE?
the estimated weight of the vehicles as well?

15 car lengths? that's close to 225'!!!

and 100mph? how often does a Maxima have to go from 100mph to a dead stop? then get back up to 100mph and do it again? you don't even do that in a race environment.

very simple...and a good rule of thumb... if you can lock up your wheels with your brakes, you don't have enough tyre.

go do some testing, then report back. I'd love to see how much shorter the braking distances are between the two.

Ok honda boy. That "rule of thumb" isn't worth a sh!t. How well you can unlock the brakes is even more important. Single piston sliding calipers simply don't function as smoothly or efficiently as rigid multi-piston better-engineered calipers.
If you think you're okay with puny stock brakes, that's fine. You'll just blend in with the rest of the ricers who try to make their car go fast, and don't even consider putting on better brakes until that one incident they need them.
I won't even go into this further, even though there are pages of technicalities that could be argued about, because it's been discussed waaay too many times already. All i know is that upgrading to the AP's has been the single most significant modification to my car, as I'm sure others with quality BBK's agree with. While the bling factor is nice to have also, the performance just blows away nearly everything else I've tried on the road.
Stock brakes are merely adequate for driving around town, no matter what components you change (pads, rotors, lines), if they're still original specs.
http://larrio.maximaclubca.com/maxima/ap%20sig.JPG

True.

:)

Old 11" brake kit.
http://www.thezam.org/kam/images/bra...stbrakekit.jpg
http://www.thezam.org/kam/images/brakes/newrotor.jpg
http://www.thezam.org/kam/images/brakes/installed.jpg

old 12.2" brake kit.
http://www.thezam.org/kam/images/ext...wheelclose.jpg

GRM article with the 9.5" stock brakes

now, I'm back to an OEM Caliper (sliding, single piston) w/ 10.3" rotors. Why?
- wilwood calipers suck
- bigger wheels on a torqueless FWD car sucks
- the 10.3" never fade, why do i need 11" or 12" brakes?
- bigger pads

I think i have some experience in big brake kit applications, testing (ie. race environments and brake tests), and function.


what else HAVE you tried?

stock brakes on my Maxima work fine. I've open tracked and autocrossed my Maxima. Never had a problem with the brakes on it. Of course, I check my braking system quite frequently, and bleed it before every event.

I'm just amazed how you guys think you need big brakes on a street driven Maxima. On a road race Maxima... sure, I can whole-heartedly agree the brakes will need to be improved on. except, how many of you with BBK do any sort of racing?


so far, from this thread, I've read from you guys that:
-BBK's are a necessity cause the Maxima brakes are inefficient
-You have no data outlining the inefficiencies of the Maxima brakes
-I don't think anyone mentioned any tyre or other modifications to the stock braking system and described their experiences
-A lot of "it feels better" comments.

Based on your theories, I should go bolt on a tornado to the car, cause it FEELS better, and it makes logical sense (vortexes, swirls, air velocity, etc)...SCREW testing... that's crazy-talk!

Do some testing, post the results...how can you give advice to someone without any experience or testing/data to back it? Understand the thread started out with this simple question
I say no. You guys say yes. I have provided data backing my stance... you guys have "well, it feels better" backing yours.

Again, the maxima is the largest sedan that Nissan uses the single piston caliper and smallish 11.x sized rotors. Why do you think the heavy 5th gens experience so much rotor warpage problems? Becuase the brakes are good enough? Because they are too big?? How about barely adequate? Why did Nissan up the rotor size in the 2k4 maxima? Because the existing brakes were good enough?

The reason why you didn't like YOUR bbk is your old bbk system put too much front bias on the front tires and caused them to lock up too early. Any properly designed bbk system also addresses the REAR brakes. Eithere though a porportioning valve or larger rear rotors and or calipers. You mention none of this. So no wonder your bbk system failed to work.

Bigger wheels only suck if they are heavy.

Your stock brakes (that put the front / rear bias back to correct) might not fade because the CRX weighs nearly nothing. The 5-gen maxima is well over 3,000 lbs.