charlestek

I bought my 2003 GLE with 43k miles on it a few years ago and put Hawk HPS pads on front and rear. The rotors that were on the car were in great shape at the time and I just sanded them per Hawk's recommendations and bedded the pads properly.

Now a few years later at 67K miles, I have light and medium grooves circular groves on the outer faces of both front rotors. While I have no pedal pulsation, at least one side is very noisy on braking. There is an incredible amount of pad thickness left on the front and back hawk pads.

So I was looking at Tire Rack's rotors and was going to get some Centric’s High Carbon Plain 125 Series Rotors for the fronts and new Hawk Hps pads at the front.

However, I was thinking about the grooving and then thought that these Akebono Performance Ultra-Premium brake pads (http://www.akebonobrakes.com/afterma...nce/index.html) also from Tire Rack would be a lot easier on the new rotors.

I know the Akebono's would not have the same power as the Hawk Hps', but I don't do any hard driving.

So what I'm trying to find out is if any members have used Hawk Hps' in the front with new rotors when they installed the pads that have grooving problems after at least 20k miles??

Of course it may well be that the new centric rotors will not have the same problems with grooving with the Hawk Hps', but I'd have to wait 20k miles to find out.......

Thanks

T_Behr904

Post pics of the rotors.

charlestek

Sorry, it is raining outside, not today. I had the front wheels off yesterday and pulled the pads and looked at them closely and the outer and inner sides of the rotors.

What I'm talking about is some raised circular grooves on the face of the rotor, actually just one maybe a millimeter or so in width; worse on the passenger side outer rotor face then on the driver's side. But in general the other faces of both front rotors feel groovy (sorry) by touch at a light amount, while the inner face of both rotors feels very smooth to the touch. Just imagine that someone lathed them and did it it very coarsely.

I checked for excess rust on the outer edge of the rotor to make sure that was not rubbing on something.

This winter I was getting some light pedal pulsation, but it is mostly gone now.

When I switched to my summer wheels and tires, I could hear the noise more. At least one side is noisy when I put light pressure on the brakes.

Luigi Martini

Do you know how old or how many miles are on these rotors. It sounds to me like they might be original. The previous owner only had 43k on the car when you purchased it and if they still "looked" okay he/she may not have felt the need to replace them.

If they are original they need to be replaced. 67K for a set of rotors would make them past their prime. If they aren't original you still don't know how much usage they have seen and depending on their condition you could still have them shaved/turned.
You need to explain what kind of noise. Is it a squeal, vibration, grinding etc. This helps pinpoint what is wrong and can help diagnose.

It sounds like you think that the Hawks put grooves into the rotors. There aren't any pads in existence that put grooves in rotors. Its caused by road debris etc getting in between the pad and rotor. Even though there is a very small gap between the two **** is still gonna find its way in. This is something that is inevitable and the process may be sped up or slowed by where you drive or how you drive.

If you are concerned about which pads, I would stick with the Hawks. Unless you don't want to pay that much. Otherwise there are tons of options.

charlestek

I have all the original repair orders for the car, I don't remember seeing a full brake job, but I'm not sure.

When I originally changed the pads, it appeared to me that the rotor may have been replaced, but it is impossible to tell.

My old 96 max had the same groove issues with brembo rotors that I installed using oem pads, with not a lot of mileage.

The noise I'm getting is more of a grinding noise with partial pedal pressure, but there is no apparent noticeable effect on braking at low speed or high speeds.

I took the pads off and inspected them, the hardware and both sides of each rotor.

You are telling me that this is typical for high mileage rotors, though I don't know how many miles total are on these rotors, except that it is at least 20K or so.

The inside face of both rotors are smooth, so you are saying that this is caused by grit under the pads,
but then why do both inside rotor faces have no issues..... no grit gets on the inside surface???

Doing a long google search of everything on rotor defects does not especially bring up that grooving is caused by grit. I don't know how you can be sure of this, is it a guess or have you found good evidence from knowledgeable people?

Another speculation from me would be that after an initial layer of metal wears off rotors that are not of extremely good quality, that the next layer may have poor metal consistency or is soft at points. That is just a speculation, I have not seen this documented anywhere from an expert.

In any case, the fact that these rotors have issues is not my main point in my post.

What I was asking is if I use a specific brand of rotor and hawk hps pads or akebono (specifically the model I indicated, as there are 3 different models of akebono's) can I typically expect to have no major rotor issues with say 30- 40K mileage on the combo.

So I was asking for input from people who specifically put new rotors on plus new hawks or akebono's on how things looked say 30k down the line, as I would buy a brand of rotor and a brand of pads if there is good evidence that they will hold up.

If you look at the 300 or so akebono (different model though, the akebono performance ones are new) reviews on Tire Rack, you will find 95% good reviews, and a large number of comments that people have had their rotors hold up without bad problems for 40, 50, 60k and more with the akebonos. A fair number of those review indicate what rotor people used, some reviews do not.

The hawk hps reviews are a lot lot more than 300, and I don't remember seeing too many that specifically commented on long rotor life, but they did not comment on low rotor life, or any rotor life, so that tells me nothing.

Luigi Martini

There are so many variables with brakes and braking (different drivers etc.) that each car will have different wear rates. There is a reason that brakes and brake parts don't have mileage warranties. Just too many variables. Your components can show signs of wear at 20K, 40K, or even 60K. It all depends on those variables.

Type "what causes grooves in brake rotors" into google. All the info you could ever want.

The inner face of the rotor on most vehicles doesn't get scoring or grooves because its protected better. Doesn't mean that it cant happen though either. On our cars there is a small dust/debris shield on the front and on the rears there is one that almost encompasses the entire rotor. These shields prevent a lot of the debris front entering on that side. The outer face is completely exposed at all times which is why each side looks different.

I just did my brakes less than 1K ago so I cant give you an opinion about wear yet. EBC USR series rotors and Hawk HPS pads along with many other things. Basically a huge overhaul. The opinions you will get about wear are more than likely going to be sporadic anyway.

The way they wear will depend on those variables. How you drive, what type of driving and driving conditions. Its not uncommon for rotors to last 40k - 60K. People expect rotors and pads to last way longer than they should even when driving like morons. Proper maintenance and driving will get them to last long.

Any rotor and pad combo will work just fine. Its not a race car, although some do work better than others. Just don't buy cheap garbage. Use the SEARCH function for the forums. There is a HUGE amount of info.

Don't worry about the grooves/scoring. If there aren't huge gouges or pieces missing you have nothing to worry about. This has no negative effects on braking unlike warped rotors etc. Believe it or not its normal wear and can't be avoided.

charlestek

Luigi,

I do appreciate your help with this issue. The present grooves don't seem to terribly impact braking performance, but it is the noise that is driving me crazy, so the rotors and pads have to be replaced.
I have had zero significant noise for the last 20k miles, but now it is just too annoying.

As far as grit causing this, the most significant groove is raised above the metal of the rest of the rotor. So if this were caused by grit, then the groove would be a depression, not a raised circle. For this to have been caused by grit, the grit would have to shave off 98% of the metal on the rest of the rotor face and leave 2% raised, which does not make sense.

Luigi Martini

No problem happy to help.

If the noise is unbearable I would get new components too. Are you sure its coming from the front though? The rear calipers on these cars are notorious for seizing and it may be the rear. Make sure to figure out what exactly it is before you start throwing money at it. Brake jobs on these cars aren't terribly expensive, especially if you are doing it yourself.

I spent hours searching through brake threads before I did my brakes. Most people choose a premium quality blank rotor with an aftermarket pad (meaning nothing OEM). This is more than adequate. You'll be extremely happy to have all that stopping power back.

There is more info concerning the grooves that I forgot to mention. In addition to debris the rotors and pads can also get substances or material build-up on them. Its similar to getting oil or some other fluid on your front window. Your wipers don't work properly. In your case something got stuck to the pad or rotor and caused improper wear. This explains the raised groove on the rotor. I hope this makes sense.

charlestek

Luigi,

I replaced the rear calipers when I bought the car because one of the calipers was seizing up. Having had the 96 Max before, I'm used to the drill, the indirect piston on the emergency brake is a bad design and calipers usually only last a few years. Visually, the rear rotors are very smooth. It is possible the noise is from the rear, what I need is someone to listen while I brake and pass them on the road, however, that may not be reliable. Ideally I need a microphone setup that isolates each wheel, I think dealers have them, but of course I do not.

Normally I would pull on the emergency brake to see if the noise is from the rears, but I don't want to invite trouble with the brakes getting stuck.

Luigi Martini

Are you doing the work yourself on the vehicle?

If so I would get the car up on stands and dismantle each corner. Calipers, pads, brackets and rotors off all around and inspect everything. If there isn't anything on the pad or rotor surface (both sides) there shouldn't be a grinding noise. In doing this you should be able to find the problem. If you don't come across anything, just taking everything apart and reassembling might solve the problem. It sounds dumb but sometimes it works. Make sure everything is tight and to spec also. You may have a loose bolt causing movement etc.

Do the obvious and make sure nothing is seized, you have shims, the pads are greased etc etc.

I just replaced both rear calipers as well. Both were sketchy and the rotors and pads were so trashed it was unbearable.

Not sure how mechanically savvy you are or if you have the time, place or tools. Spending the time to check might save you money and will hopefully pinpoint if anything does in fact need replacing.

You said the pads have plenty of life left and the car stops just fine. The only problem is the noise?

charlestek

Luigi,

I already took the pads off and inspected things. I have done this on this Maxima and my old '96 Maxima more times than I'd like to count.

Grinding is a relative term. I could more accurately say when I partially step on the pedal the brake is noisy, but not the same grinding noise you would get when the pads are worn down
to the backing plate. Not that kind of grinding .

I'm an electrical engineer, I'd better be savvy, though obviously I'm not a mechanical engineer.

The pins are lubricated properly, everything else is in order.

I was going to order a new hardware kit anyway, but the fronts are about $90 from Nissan, so I have to check Maxima.org and find out who is selling Oem parts at a discount these days.

RR5

iTrader: (6)

I am not positive on the 2003 GLE Maxima but one option is a salvage yard and get the 6th gen front brake calipers. Upgraded stopping power. And it's mostly cheaper than new hardware, which might not even be needed.

I went that road and went with slotted rotors. Haven't had any major problems for two years now.

Luigi Martini

Did you ever solve the issue? I also thought it could be a suspension component while under brake load because you haven't found much evidence yet. Just an idea, but it's a pretty far out one.

RR5 makes an excellent point. The 6th gen upgrade wasn't an option when I did my brakes but if you have the opportunity take it. Many more advantages to this setup vs. stock and it solves the drawbacks of the OEM rotors etc.

charlestek

Luigi,

I spoke with Eric from Hawk Performance. He confirmed what I first thought.
The grooves are most likely from the rotor metal being inconsistent and that is pretty common in poor quality rotors.

He suggested I speak with Bill from Diversified Cryogenics:
http://www.diversifiedcryogenics.com/

Bill suggested I try 4 hard stops from 70mph to see if I could break loose any pad deposits on the rotor. I tried that and it helped a little bit.

He said why not turn the rotors, but it is impossible to find anyone that does that anymore. He also said that the shop has to be able to mount the rotor properly on the lathe and should only take off two to three thousands of an inch. Most shops lop off ten thousands. The shop should use a runout guage to check things as well

His company cryos all sorts of things, gears, rotors, etc.

He said all the tire rack rotors aren't that great, even their slotted and cryoed models.

He can sell me a cryoed rotor for $112 or with slots for $157

He also said that the stock rotors for my max are too light in weight and inadequate mass to begin with, which makes problems worse.

He suggested I look at Nissan Titan Talk to see the people who were happy with his rotors on Nissan Titan's.

TallTom

FWIW, I have the Centric rotors from Tirerack and they are holding up beautifully for a year now. Much better than when I bought Brembo blanks from the same place.

charlestek

Tom,

Thanks. The real test is after say 20 -30k miles on the rotors.

Tire rack sells the centric plain 120's, high carbon plain 125, high carbon plain 120 cryos. Bill specifically thought his rotors are better when I mentioned the centrics.

Hard to tell without someone testing them. I guess I will look at Nissan Titan Talk.

Luigi Martini

Those grooves must be much worse than they appear.

In terms of turning the rotors, I honestly don't know anyone who has done it or if anyone has had any luck with it. If you can find a shop to do it properly (this is the most important word here) then excellent, as that will save you some money, however from the sound of it the rotors aren't of high quality or longevity. You absolutely cannot remove more than a couple thousandths from these rotors and if the runout is too far beyond spec taking a couple thousandths off isn't possible.

The problem I have seen is the companies manufacturing these rotors are making the vents WAY too wide, reducing the thickness of material. Absolutely WRONG way make them. They will warp in no time. BIll is completely right saying there isn't enough mass to begin with that's why a lot of guys are upgrading to the 6th gen 12.6 in. rotors. There just isn't enough there to absorb the heat, bring down the temps and dissipate it.

Can't say much about cryo rotors. My girlfriend has them on her Mazda 6 and they seem to be holding up well. Maybe 6k on them right now. Not long enough to make a conclusion. When you get into that sort of thing the prices start to jump and if you aren't guaranteed 50k-60k of good rotor life its hard for some to justify the price.

If you have the opportunity I would seriously consider upgrading and it sounds like you might do that.

charlestek

To upgrade to 6th gen means you have to replace the hub?, calipers? as well as the rotors....

How do you know the abs system will still function properly?

Otherwise, yeah, that was my goal, to not have to mess with the rotors for most of the pad life, which with these Hawks would appear to be at least 40k
If the cryos can't do that then they aren't worth it.

Luigi Martini

There are many threads on the 6th gen upgrade. Just search the forums. Yes you will spend all day reading about this but it's all worth it. It's much easier than you think. No replacing of the hub, ABS ring or ABS sensor or anything like that. Just a custom bracket to offset the caliper farther out and the larger rotor. There is more but its just too much to explain.

You will have to get the brackets from someone on the forum. Only a couple make them and sell them. Most people source the 6th gen calipers from the junkyard but you can buy them new. Your choice. 17 in. SE rims will clear but nothing smaller IIRC.

ABS still functions normally and the brake bias changes 3% IIRC. Not enough to notice or alter braking.

Upgrading also gives you more options for rotors and pads I believe.

charlestek

Luigi,

Thanks, I will consider it. However, I was thinking that outside of doing necessary maintenance, including brakes that are too noisy, I should avoid throwing too much into the car. I've been out of work for awhile, and should watch my expenses better. In fact, I've been more or less coming to the decision point that the Max has to be replaced because of its horrible fuel mileage (18 to maybe 20 mpg, mostly city driving). Gas is just way too expensive and is not going to get cheaper.

It is too bad that Nissan does not sell any turbo 4 cyl cars. In any case, I would be buying something used.

Luigi Martini

With so little mileage for age necessary maintenance shouldn't include much. Obviously some things deteriorate over time but I'm imagining the car to be in great shape. Do tell me otherwise lol.

I don't want to bring you bad news but it sounds like you have more then a brake issue also. Your gas mileage shouldn't be that terrible. I'm averaging 26+ with mixed driving and that's not being gentle either.

On another note if you do decide to sell I would put the money into it before you do. These Maximas are great cars and have proven that over time so they are worth every penny. Considering the mileage and condition of the car I don't doubt that you could get $8000+ if you privately sell. It would be a shame if you get rid of it because these are fantastic cars.

charlestek

Luigi,

The car is in about as perfect shape as it can be for its age. I've spent a lot of money at Autogeek.com on a porter cable dual action buffer, lots of meguiars, optimum opti-seal, collinite etc. Oil is Mobil 1 every 5k.
The car has Conti Extreme Contact DWS tires.

However, it is an auto. I would love to have gotten a manual, but in Boston traffic, forget it. This is stop and go about as bad as you can get it.

As far as I can tell the mileage is par for the course from talking to my private mechanic that only does Nissans.

I had a '96 auto Maxima before this one and it got better mileage, but only a few more mpg.

There is nothing in particular to indicate that something is screwed up with the engine. Oil consumption is normal. When I bought the car I did know that there were some early 3.5's that had bad oil consumption, especially on G35.

I don't even think I got 26mpg on my '96, and I bought that car from a woman with a family at around 40k miles. The odo failed at 110k, and as near as I can figure I kept it to at least 200k and it was running well then.

See http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/18698.shtml

https://maxima.org/forums/5th-genera...age-sucks.html

If you do a forum search for fuel economy for a 3.5 liter auto, you pretty much come up with the same thing I get, except for a few people.

Most of my trips are short. When I'm on the highway, my usual speed is 80mph.

I hope you're not using the fuel mileage computer, that thing is useless. I reset the trip odo at every fill-up and when I fill up I note the trip odo reading and the number of gallons I add to the car.