Are these symptoms of anti theft system problems?
04-29-2017, 02:55 AM
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 44
Are these symptoms of anti theft system problems?
For posting on Maxima.org;
Problem;
Turn key in attempt to start car =
Starter engages fine, motor turns fine, however car will not start.
Tests performed so far;
4/28/2017;
Removed a coil and spark plug wire to check for spark. Result, no spark.
Unplugged power plug from fuel injector, connected test light, no power, no electric pulse to fuel injector.
Tested each fuse under the hood, and in the passenger compartment, as well as the relays under the hood. Test light was used. Result, test light confirmed
Indications that the problem may be the anti theft system;
Symptoms are the same as far as no spark to plugs and no pulse to fuel injectors.
If the antitheft system is disabling the motor from starting, the above is what would happen, correct?
Indications that the problem may not be the antitheft system;
Tests performed using the chip key;
When I insert the chip key and turn it to the ‘ON’ position the security light turns off. This would indicate that the anti theft system recognizes the key as it should, correct?
When I scan for codes using the OBD scanner, after having tried to start the car with the chip key, I get no error codes. If the key was not programmed correctly, or if the antitheft system was not recognizing the key, I would get error code P1614, correct?
Tests performed using the door only key or the valet key;
When I insert the door only key, also known as the valet key, and turn it to the ON position, the security light comes on and stays on solid. Functioning as it should, correct?
When I try to start the car using the valet key, naturally the car does not start.
When I scan for error codes after trying this, I get a P1614 error code, which is exactly what is suppose to happen, correct?
Primary questions;
Why is car not getting spark?
Why is the car not getting pulse / power to the fuel injectors?
Is it likely that the above questions could likely be answered by ‘Faulty transponder receiver’ (the device which received the signal from the chip key.
Next Steps which I tentatively plan to take;
Added 4/29/2017 :
Make a video of what is happening to the car for posting on YouTube.
2. Call and or email locksmiths and show them the video, see if they have any suggestions.
3. Find a diagram of the anti-theft system, post a request at Maxima.org if necessary.
4. Find a testing procedure for either the anti theft system as a whole, or each individual component of the anti theft system.
Here is the breakdown of recent history;
4/10/2017: I replaced both of the camshaft position sensors & the Intake manifold runner control. This was because the car was sputtering when I tried to start it, and it stalled a couple times in traffic. The OBD scanner revealed two codes, for the cam sensors and the intake manifold runner. The parts were replaced with parts I bought on Ebay. The seller claimed that the parts were OEM, just without the packaging, but I am skeptical. The car ran fine until;
4/23/2017: The car would not start when I turned the key. The starter was turning the motor fine, but it would not start. I tried for maybe 20 minutes, then called a tow truck. As the tow truck was pulling up, about 45 minutes later, the car started. Then ran fine, daily until;
4/27/2017: (the day of this post) The car would not start again. I was at home this time, so I had my scanner ready. It showed no codes at all. I disconnected the battery for 30 minutes, and tried again. Still, no start, and no codes.
Problem;
Turn key in attempt to start car =
Starter engages fine, motor turns fine, however car will not start.
Tests performed so far;
4/28/2017;
Removed a coil and spark plug wire to check for spark. Result, no spark.
Unplugged power plug from fuel injector, connected test light, no power, no electric pulse to fuel injector.
Tested each fuse under the hood, and in the passenger compartment, as well as the relays under the hood. Test light was used. Result, test light confirmed
Indications that the problem may be the anti theft system;
Symptoms are the same as far as no spark to plugs and no pulse to fuel injectors.
If the antitheft system is disabling the motor from starting, the above is what would happen, correct?
Indications that the problem may not be the antitheft system;
Tests performed using the chip key;
When I insert the chip key and turn it to the ‘ON’ position the security light turns off. This would indicate that the anti theft system recognizes the key as it should, correct?
When I scan for codes using the OBD scanner, after having tried to start the car with the chip key, I get no error codes. If the key was not programmed correctly, or if the antitheft system was not recognizing the key, I would get error code P1614, correct?
Tests performed using the door only key or the valet key;
When I insert the door only key, also known as the valet key, and turn it to the ON position, the security light comes on and stays on solid. Functioning as it should, correct?
When I try to start the car using the valet key, naturally the car does not start.
When I scan for error codes after trying this, I get a P1614 error code, which is exactly what is suppose to happen, correct?
Primary questions;
Why is car not getting spark?
Why is the car not getting pulse / power to the fuel injectors?
Is it likely that the above questions could likely be answered by ‘Faulty transponder receiver’ (the device which received the signal from the chip key.
Next Steps which I tentatively plan to take;
Added 4/29/2017 :
Make a video of what is happening to the car for posting on YouTube.
2. Call and or email locksmiths and show them the video, see if they have any suggestions.
3. Find a diagram of the anti-theft system, post a request at Maxima.org if necessary.
4. Find a testing procedure for either the anti theft system as a whole, or each individual component of the anti theft system.
Here is the breakdown of recent history;
4/10/2017: I replaced both of the camshaft position sensors & the Intake manifold runner control. This was because the car was sputtering when I tried to start it, and it stalled a couple times in traffic. The OBD scanner revealed two codes, for the cam sensors and the intake manifold runner. The parts were replaced with parts I bought on Ebay. The seller claimed that the parts were OEM, just without the packaging, but I am skeptical. The car ran fine until;
4/23/2017: The car would not start when I turned the key. The starter was turning the motor fine, but it would not start. I tried for maybe 20 minutes, then called a tow truck. As the tow truck was pulling up, about 45 minutes later, the car started. Then ran fine, daily until;
4/27/2017: (the day of this post) The car would not start again. I was at home this time, so I had my scanner ready. It showed no codes at all. I disconnected the battery for 30 minutes, and tried again. Still, no start, and no codes.
04-29-2017, 07:59 PM
#2
The standard Nissan security system (the one for the doors, hood, etc) will disable the starter. Since the starter does crank the engine, the security system is not the problem.
Nissan also has a 2nd security system called NATS that uses a computer microchip in the ignition key. If the NATS system gets triggered by someone trying to start the car with an unregistered key or the NATS system burps, the red security light in with the clock will be on solid when you are trying to start the car. The way NATS disables the car is to turn off the fuel injectors. You may or may not get a code in the P16xx range.
But neither of these systems do anything to stop the spark. If you had a bad crankshaft sensor, this would cause a no spark situation and you would usually have a P0325 code.
Regarding the part about checking the fuel injectors with a test light - that may not be a valid way of checking. The fuel injector gets an electrical pulse that is only milliseconds in duration. That might not be enough time to make a traditional light bulb glow, but it might make a led light up. I don't know. What might be a better test is to put a stethoscope on the fuel injector and listen for the clicking sound of the solenoid inside the injector.
A question is do you have an after-market security system on the car? these things disable a car in many different ways.
What is the code you had that you are calling the "intake manifold runner"?
And while I'm asking questions, what year is your car?
Nissan also has a 2nd security system called NATS that uses a computer microchip in the ignition key. If the NATS system gets triggered by someone trying to start the car with an unregistered key or the NATS system burps, the red security light in with the clock will be on solid when you are trying to start the car. The way NATS disables the car is to turn off the fuel injectors. You may or may not get a code in the P16xx range.
But neither of these systems do anything to stop the spark. If you had a bad crankshaft sensor, this would cause a no spark situation and you would usually have a P0325 code.
Regarding the part about checking the fuel injectors with a test light - that may not be a valid way of checking. The fuel injector gets an electrical pulse that is only milliseconds in duration. That might not be enough time to make a traditional light bulb glow, but it might make a led light up. I don't know. What might be a better test is to put a stethoscope on the fuel injector and listen for the clicking sound of the solenoid inside the injector.
A question is do you have an after-market security system on the car? these things disable a car in many different ways.
What is the code you had that you are calling the "intake manifold runner"?
And while I'm asking questions, what year is your car?
04-30-2017, 03:48 PM
#3
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 44
Thanks very much for your response.
Car is a 2003, sorry I should have included that information.
No, there is no aftermarket security system in place.
I dont remember the code I was getting with the intake manifold runner control, but here is a link to the part I bought to fix the problem;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/291774622131...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Although I am getting no code, I might try swapping the cam position sensor(s).
Car is a 2003, sorry I should have included that information.
No, there is no aftermarket security system in place.
I dont remember the code I was getting with the intake manifold runner control, but here is a link to the part I bought to fix the problem;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/291774622131...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Although I am getting no code, I might try swapping the cam position sensor(s).
04-30-2017, 05:54 PM
#4
The code was probably P1800 - VIAS CONTROL SOLENOID VALVE as that is the solenoid valve in the ebay link. VIAS stands for Variable Intake Air System and is used to get a few more horsepower out of the engine at higher rpm. You were probably driving around with this code as it will not prevent you from starting the car.
04-30-2017, 11:16 PM
#5
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 44
Yes, that is correct. Now that you mention it, yes. That was the code (P1800). Also the P0325. But, I seemed to have resolved those issues. I replaced the cam position sensors, and the solenoid valve, and the car ran fine daily for about 3 weeks. psst.... (I already said a prayer and ordered both cam position sensors.) But the symptoms are different now then when I was getting the P0325 code... Before the car would run fine, with occasional rough starts and stalled twice in traffic. Now... it just wont start at all. So, I figure I will keep looking for a smoking gun till the new cam position sensors arrive, then get my guy to install them. I also left a note on the car for my tech, Frank, asking him to try the stethoscope test in the injectors to see if they are getting a pulse (as you graciously suggested) . Also asked him to check the fuses or relays for the spark plugs and injectors, and see if any power is coming through the fuses, and maybe trace it back further from there. (not sure of the logic of the fuse test)
Is there anything else you may be able to recommend, anything to look at, any tests?
Is there anything else you may be able to recommend, anything to look at, any tests?
Last edited by Dolphinride; 05-01-2017 at 02:48 AM.
05-01-2017, 10:06 PM
#6
First I have to apologise for typing an incorrect code and not catching it.
The code I should have typed for the crankshaft sensor is P0335.
P0325 is the knock sensor. I'm sure you did have code P0325 as any time the engine is not running correctly, this code will be present. Fix the other problems and this code disappears. It is possible for the knock sensor to go bad, but it is not all that common.
I don't have any recommendations for additional tests other than retest both the no spark and the no fuel injectors. It is such an unusual combination that I wonder if one of them is in error.
P0325 is the knock sensor. I'm sure you did have code P0325 as any time the engine is not running correctly, this code will be present. Fix the other problems and this code disappears. It is possible for the knock sensor to go bad, but it is not all that common.
I don't have any recommendations for additional tests other than retest both the no spark and the no fuel injectors. It is such an unusual combination that I wonder if one of them is in error.
05-08-2017, 10:22 PM
#7
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 44
GOT IT FIXED.... Went out on a limb.... even though I really had no firm evidence that the cam sensors were the problem... And I (once again) bought new cam sensors. When we went to replace them, the rear one was VERY difficult to remove from the socket where it plugs in. Once it came out, we noticed that the wires that connect to the thing that the cam sensor plugs into were missing some insulation. So, we kind of separated the wires to keep them from touching. Next time I change the oil, the tech will put some silicone between and on the wires for a more permanent fix. Also, I will take a picture or few of what I am talking about for anyone else who may have this problem.