no spark...
12-02-2018, 02:29 PM
#1
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no spark...
so the other day I picked up a 03, not running, for cheap, so I figured I could get it going and clean it up a bit....I'm usually pretty good with this stuff, but Im at a loss with this one, so I need some help.
The car had been sitting for a few months, the previous owner said it ran fine one day and then didnt start the next. I got it home, got a new battery for it, and started checking everything, only code I have for it is an EVAP code.
I did try a new cranksensor just to check it out but no dice, I went through the FSM and did all the testing for a multimeter, all fuses are good, good power at the relay, relay its self checks out good, I do have power at the coils, good continuity from the ECM and coils...
now one thing that was bad, was the ignition condenser, would not OHM out or anything, now I have no idea if it could cause no spark, this is the first car I've ever seen with something like this.... Ive been reading about the NATs and the light does go out while cranking, and the plugs are wet with fuel.
Anything Im missing? anything else I need to check...?
The car had been sitting for a few months, the previous owner said it ran fine one day and then didnt start the next. I got it home, got a new battery for it, and started checking everything, only code I have for it is an EVAP code.
I did try a new cranksensor just to check it out but no dice, I went through the FSM and did all the testing for a multimeter, all fuses are good, good power at the relay, relay its self checks out good, I do have power at the coils, good continuity from the ECM and coils...
now one thing that was bad, was the ignition condenser, would not OHM out or anything, now I have no idea if it could cause no spark, this is the first car I've ever seen with something like this.... Ive been reading about the NATs and the light does go out while cranking, and the plugs are wet with fuel.
Anything Im missing? anything else I need to check...?
12-02-2018, 09:26 PM
#2
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Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: California
Posts: 1,445
so the other day I picked up a 03, not running, for cheap, so I figured I could get it going and clean it up a bit....I'm usually pretty good with this stuff, but Im at a loss with this one, so I need some help.
The car had been sitting for a few months, the previous owner said it ran fine one day and then didnt start the next. I got it home, got a new battery for it, and started checking everything, only code I have for it is an EVAP code.
I did try a new cranksensor just to check it out but no dice, I went through the FSM and did all the testing for a multimeter, all fuses are good, good power at the relay, relay its self checks out good, I do have power at the coils, good continuity from the ECM and coils...
now one thing that was bad, was the ignition condenser, would not OHM out or anything, now I have no idea if it could cause no spark, this is the first car I've ever seen with something like this.... Ive been reading about the NATs and the light does go out while cranking, and the plugs are wet with fuel.
Anything Im missing? anything else I need to check...?
The car had been sitting for a few months, the previous owner said it ran fine one day and then didnt start the next. I got it home, got a new battery for it, and started checking everything, only code I have for it is an EVAP code.
I did try a new cranksensor just to check it out but no dice, I went through the FSM and did all the testing for a multimeter, all fuses are good, good power at the relay, relay its self checks out good, I do have power at the coils, good continuity from the ECM and coils...
now one thing that was bad, was the ignition condenser, would not OHM out or anything, now I have no idea if it could cause no spark, this is the first car I've ever seen with something like this.... Ive been reading about the NATs and the light does go out while cranking, and the plugs are wet with fuel.
Anything Im missing? anything else I need to check...?
There are nine of them (P0441 to P0456, see the FSM, pg. EC-336 to EC-402), so it's somewhat important to narrow it down.
12-03-2018, 06:40 PM
#4
You cannot test a capacitor/condenser with an ohmmeter. It takes a special tester. Some multimeters have it built in and it has its own setting on the meter. If your meter has a capacitor testing setting, it may take a minute to get a reading, it depends on the farad rating of the capacitor. For purposes of starting, unless the capacitor has shorted, a bad capacitor won't interfere. And since you have voltage at the coils, you don't have a shorted capacitor because that would blow a fuse.
Perhaps you might try checking the wires between the the flywheel crankshaft sensor and the ECU. Maybe there is some wire damage.
Perhaps you might try checking the wires between the the flywheel crankshaft sensor and the ECU. Maybe there is some wire damage.
12-03-2018, 07:09 PM
#5
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I tested it the way the FSM says, but I managed to grab a couple at a pullapart, but tried a few but no changes, I've also read that the crank sensor is not even needed for it to run. I did try a new crank sensor, but I have not checked the wiring from the ecu. I'm going to take out the cam sensors and check those. Just seems strange with no codes.
12-04-2018, 10:05 PM
#7
In the 2003 Nissan FSM, it shows a 3 volt signal - EC-688 and EC-689. These are short pulses, maybe 2 or 3 milliseconds so you may not be able to see this with a dvm.
When I deal with a signal that is a pulse, I set my meter to AC volts and I will maybe get a reading, but it is nowhere near accurate. It just tells me that I have something.
The crankshaft sensor is absolutely needed. It is used by the ECU to determine when to fire the ignition coil. A secondary use is to make the fuel pump run.
When I deal with a signal that is a pulse, I set my meter to AC volts and I will maybe get a reading, but it is nowhere near accurate. It just tells me that I have something.
The crankshaft sensor is absolutely needed. It is used by the ECU to determine when to fire the ignition coil. A secondary use is to make the fuel pump run.
Last edited by DennisMik; 12-04-2018 at 10:08 PM.
12-04-2018, 11:28 PM
#8
Crap, I can't read.
Cam sensors don't have to throw a code. I'd swap em out with a junkyard freebie to be sure. Also, unplug crank sensor and try for several seconds and see (to rule out the sensor/harness altogether).You've covered everything that causes no spark in your research.
Cam sensors don't have to throw a code. I'd swap em out with a junkyard freebie to be sure. Also, unplug crank sensor and try for several seconds and see (to rule out the sensor/harness altogether).You've covered everything that causes no spark in your research.
12-05-2018, 07:34 AM
#9
You cannot test a capacitor/condenser with an ohmmeter. It takes a special tester. Some multimeters have it built in and it has its own setting on the meter. If your meter has a capacitor testing setting, it may take a minute to get a reading, it depends on the farad rating of the capacitor. For purposes of starting, unless the capacitor has shorted, a bad capacitor won't interfere. And since you have voltage at the coils, you don't have a shorted capacitor because that would blow a fuse.
Perhaps you might try checking the wires between the the flywheel crankshaft sensor and the ECU. Maybe there is some wire damage.
Perhaps you might try checking the wires between the the flywheel crankshaft sensor and the ECU. Maybe there is some wire damage.
In any case, a bad condenser or lack of one entirely wont stop your car from starting or running, so you could rule that out.
EDIT: I know OP mentioned that his spark plugs have fuel on them - but what does the security light look like when youre not cranking? Is it blinking periodically or is it on solid when the key is in the ignition? Blinking = good. Solid light = NATS is triggered and needs to be reset. If that is indeed the case, get your laptop, buy nissan datascan2, and get yourself a cable for the obd2 port >>laptop - youll pay half the amount youd pay the dealer to reset NATS and have a program that enables you to do all sorts of cool sht with your max.
Last edited by Slamrod; 12-05-2018 at 07:41 AM.
12-05-2018, 03:15 PM
#10
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You can actually test with a meter, it just isnt a very good test. If you check resistance, you will see it climb from none to infinity over the course of about 3 or 4 seconds. After that, it will be stuck at infinite resistance. If you discharge the capacitor (i used a penny or whatever crap i had laying around), you can repeat the process. In my experience, if the capacitor is able to charge, discharge, and recharge in this manner, its probably good. If you dont see the resistance rise to infinite, it isnt working. Again i wouldnt say this is a foolproof method but it was sufficient to determine mine worked - had the same results between my old condenser as well as the new OEM one.
In any case, a bad condenser or lack of one entirely wont stop your car from starting or running, so you could rule that out.
EDIT: I know OP mentioned that his spark plugs have fuel on them - but what does the security light look like when youre not cranking? Is it blinking periodically or is it on solid when the key is in the ignition? Blinking = good. Solid light = NATS is triggered and needs to be reset. If that is indeed the case, get your laptop, buy nissan datascan2, and get yourself a cable for the obd2 port >>laptop - youll pay half the amount youd pay the dealer to reset NATS and have a program that enables you to do all sorts of cool sht with your max.
In any case, a bad condenser or lack of one entirely wont stop your car from starting or running, so you could rule that out.
EDIT: I know OP mentioned that his spark plugs have fuel on them - but what does the security light look like when youre not cranking? Is it blinking periodically or is it on solid when the key is in the ignition? Blinking = good. Solid light = NATS is triggered and needs to be reset. If that is indeed the case, get your laptop, buy nissan datascan2, and get yourself a cable for the obd2 port >>laptop - youll pay half the amount youd pay the dealer to reset NATS and have a program that enables you to do all sorts of cool sht with your max.
12-05-2018, 03:27 PM
#11
what brand is the crank sensor? That could be the issue right there. You always want OEM with sensors, these cars are very picky, IIRC hitachi makes the OEM and can be had for like 40 or 50 bucks. Also did you check the wiring harness for the sensor?
12-05-2018, 03:30 PM
#12
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it was a driveworks, I have the OEM sensor back in it right now, I did not have the chance to check the wiring from the crank sensor to the ECU, but the subharness is good. Are the cam sensors the same as the crank?
12-06-2018, 08:45 AM
#14
i suspect this is what happened to my old motor and caused it to lose compression. However it still was able to start, it just ran as if someone poured a bucket of ball bearings into the crank case.
OP - did you do a compression test? Before you do anything else i would do that, you can get the gauge off amazon or even at autozone/etc for like $15. If you can change a sparkplug you can test compression. Doing this will confirm whether or not you are wasting your time with this motor.
OP - did you do a compression test? Before you do anything else i would do that, you can get the gauge off amazon or even at autozone/etc for like $15. If you can change a sparkplug you can test compression. Doing this will confirm whether or not you are wasting your time with this motor.
12-06-2018, 11:17 AM
#15
I got the 3 volt number from the pages I referenced. They show an oscilloscope pattern. Each square represents 2 volts. You may have to enlarge the image to see the scale notation at the bottom.
12-08-2018, 12:04 PM
#16
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Alright so, Ive tried new cam sensors, and crank sensor, tried spare coilpacks and still nothing, I do infact have the .2 volts going to signal wire, but still its not sparking, I even tried a new spark plug in the coil while testing. Is it possible all my coils are fried?
12-08-2018, 06:57 PM
#18
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12-09-2018, 11:15 AM
#19
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If I were you, because it's easy enough to do, I would pull the ECU out from under the dash, open it up and inspect it. This is only because I am a victim of a fried ECU that was throwing P0011/21 codes (not sure what the mechanism of failure was) and after I did some research here I noticed that others were affected by this failure as well. I have pictures of mine somewhere on here. Burnt circuit tracks that were responsible for IVT stuff.
Im running out of ideas of what it could be,
12-09-2018, 11:21 AM
#20
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Have you completed the FSM Ignition Signal steps 1-19? Is your 15A ignition fuse intact?
Edit: I know you mentioned this already. Just making sure. With everything you've covered, I'm at a loss myself. Highly unlikely ALL of your coils are fried. Tough to say at this point without more vehicle history. Did the person you bought it from have any work done to it?
Edit: I know you mentioned this already. Just making sure. With everything you've covered, I'm at a loss myself. Highly unlikely ALL of your coils are fried. Tough to say at this point without more vehicle history. Did the person you bought it from have any work done to it?
I know for sure its getting fuel.
12-09-2018, 05:27 PM
#21
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Verify that you do have (or don't have) spark:
- Remove one of the front coils, including the spark plug,
- Make sure it's not wet with fuel ....
- Ground the plug (and get a helper),
- Crank the engine - not too long, you don't want to be dumping all this fuel into your cats.
- No spark: Verify that there is no spark across at least two other plugs. If confirmed, examine the primary ignition circuit. Otherwise, it's time to have a serious look at your coils.
- Spark OK: It's either fuel delivery or compression. My bet is on fuel delivery (injectors, or fuel pressure regulator)
12-09-2018, 05:31 PM
#22
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I was about to tell you not to bother with the ECU, but I go sidetracked .... So, I better do it now.
Verify that you do have (or don't have) spark:
Verify that you do have (or don't have) spark:
- Remove one of the front coils, including the spark plug,
- Make sure it's not wet with fuel ....
- Ground the plug (and get a helper),
- Crank the engine - not too long, you don't want to be dumping all this fuel into your cats.
- No spark: Verify that there is no spark across at least two other plugs. If confirmed, examine the primary ignition circuit. Otherwise, it's time to have a serious look at your coils.
- Spark OK: It's either fuel delivery or compression. My bet is on fuel delivery (injectors, or fuel pressure regulator)
12-09-2018, 08:08 PM
#23
My mistake if you did this already, but did you try a new OEM crank sensor? Could be that your old sensor was bad, and that the driveworks brand one you tried was simply trash and didnt work either. Also did you test all the cylinders for spark or just one of them?
12-09-2018, 08:54 PM
#24
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I did grab a couple of oem sensors from pullapart, and tried those, nothing changed, I'm checking first 3 cylinders in the front, I may just replace the coil packs and new plugs anyways.
12-11-2018, 03:40 PM
#26
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It appears as though Mr. ChrisMan was is on to something!
Edit: Your data does't look right to me, but I am not knowledgeable enough to have a technical basis for that gut feeling. I wish I could help you more! Give it time, you just posted that. Someone far smarter than I will chime in soon. Don't give up, it's just stuff. You're one step closer!
Edit: Your data does't look right to me, but I am not knowledgeable enough to have a technical basis for that gut feeling. I wish I could help you more! Give it time, you just posted that. Someone far smarter than I will chime in soon. Don't give up, it's just stuff. You're one step closer!
12-11-2018, 06:41 PM
#27
12-15-2018, 02:57 PM
#28
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Yeah I got new plugs, and found out what the issue is. There is something wrong with the connector behind the manifold, its the green one next to the blue one, when its held down and fiddle with it, I get spark, but its a pain to hold it just right. so I maybe just get another connector or just splice the wires together.
12-15-2018, 04:39 PM
#29
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Ah! The bank 1 coil/injector harness! Hooray! I know exactly what you're talking about. I reconditioned another entire engine harness that I picked up a bit ago for my swap and have since become very familiar with it. That green plug is a big one. I can imagine how difficult it is to reach with the engine in. If you can reach it, it is easy to unplug and plug back in. If you have the time and resources, I'd pull the manifold and go through everything harness-wise. That's a heat-burdened area and prime location for plastic to deteriorate.
no its easy to get too, right up top behind the manifold, I'll probably just cut the plug and wire it directly to each other, until I can get a aftermaket plug, but since that only affects bank 1 why was it not letting bank 2 have spark? but after messing with it, bank 2 got spark as well. just seems odd.
12-15-2018, 04:48 PM
#30
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That is bizarre. Perhaps a protection function in the ECU? Also, are you sure the plug is bad? Would disconnecting it and cleaning it with some electrical contact cleaner work? I used WD40 contact cleaner on all of my harness plugs and gave them all a good cleaning. Your issue is precisely why 
12-16-2018, 03:32 PM
#31
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12-16-2018, 05:48 PM
#32
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12-17-2018, 12:50 PM
#33
Very possible, i had something extremely similar happen except it was bank 2 giving me problems. Considering the cost + labor involved with fixing that, now is the time to start looking into getting a new motor or a new car. Sorry man, I know the feeling and it isnt a good one. On the bright side its not a hopeless situation, just one thats a lot more involved.
12-17-2018, 01:57 PM
#34
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Very possible, i had something extremely similar happen except it was bank 2 giving me problems. Considering the cost + labor involved with fixing that, now is the time to start looking into getting a new motor or a new car. Sorry man, I know the feeling and it isnt a good one. On the bright side its not a hopeless situation, just one thats a lot more involved.
12-17-2018, 11:47 PM
#35
It should still start on the other 3 cylinders and run normal if revved up. But, yes, I have seen it not throw a code and kill a whole bank. You can remove, split em apart, clean and then test to make sure they actuate.
12-22-2018, 10:49 PM
#40
We've really run the gamut with this problem and a lot of experienced guys replied. So you're probably right about the motor. Unfortunate that the motor is toast, but a swap really isn't that difficult (or even nearly as difficult as I have made mine lol) and you have a viable car again without much cost. I'd be interested in purchasing some parts from you before you crush it if you're willing.
$850 and done in a weekend. And, oh, boy, NASA couldn't make a space vehicle engine swap as difficult as you did lol
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