View Poll Results: do have headers and a CEL
Yes I have headers and have a CEL/SES
5
55.56%
Nope all is running perfect
4
44.44%
Voters: 9. You may not vote on this poll
Who has CEL's from headers?
01-14-2010, 03:33 PM
#1
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Who has CEL's from headers?
I have found another possible remedy that I would like to explore, but I want to know how many people are still having CEL/SES issues after trying sims and spacers.
post below any comments but make sure you vote in the poll.
Again this is only for those that HAVE HEADERS, and the CEL is an o2 CEL from the header install
PLEASE VOTE
post below any comments but make sure you vote in the poll.
Again this is only for those that HAVE HEADERS, and the CEL is an o2 CEL from the header install
PLEASE VOTE
Last edited by TAZ; 01-14-2010 at 04:34 PM.
01-19-2010, 02:50 PM
#7
Hi Taz,
Most of our header sets seem to run fine without CELs when properly installed. A few guys have used spacers with good effect, but some have codes they haven't been able to solve. I'll point out that my observations only relate to Cattman headers.
There are two groups of Cattman header owners - the majority that have been able to install without lingering codes, and a minority with a variety of different codes involving either primary or secondary O2 sensors. Although there are many trouble-free 05+ Maxima and Altima installations, the troublesome CEL issues primarily effect the 05+ series due to the increased sensitivity of their air/fuel management systems.
When you consider it logically, if some run headers OK with a simulator or relocating O2 ports behind a working main cat in the y-pipe then that solution should, at least in theory, work on all cars but of course that's not always the case.
When CELs do come up, the patterns we see point to either 1) problems with the required electrical connections and/or splices (wrong connectors, poor soldering or wrong gauge or type of wire for extensions), and/or 2) a bad ground to the ECU, which is where the ground for the O2 sensors (and simulators) connects to the chassis (this is especially true with the Altimas). In most cases, effectively addressing these problems has eliminated the CEL, but a few guys have employed spacers with good effect too.
I wouldn't presume that you're looking to us for solutions here, but I do have two very sincere suggestions that I believe would eliminate the vast majority of the CEL issues that come up in header installations. The first would be a very high quality plug-and-play wiring extension kit to allow an easier and more reliable installation. These are needed for the primary sensors (since location of the primary O2 ports at the base of the 3-1 collector on properly designed headers puts them out of reach of the wiring harness) and the secondary sensor if they're being relocated behind a cat in a Racingline or Cattman y-pipe. You might ask why we haven't done this ourselves, and I'll just say its not for lack of trying - I've given up finding the right pins and plugs to do this (or a supplier who can just make one) and so have several others who started out confident and ended up defeated. Anyone who can pull this off will have my eternal admiration and I will pledge to be a customer. Just keep in mind the actual connections have to be the highest quality, because they are still potential interruptions or corruptions to the circuit and the 05+ Nissans are extremely sensitive to this.
Second contributing solution is much more simple, just including a wire in a grounding kit to create a better ground for the ECU (and instructions of where/how to attach it) - it seems like few kits do. I'm told by Nissan mechanics that the connection between the ECU and a crossbrace behind the dash is good, but the connection between the crossbrace and chassis is bad. I know this to be true about the Altima, but it may have relevance to the Maxima as well.
I'm not sure what inspired this thread, but please know that although we're competitors and have had some tense moments in the past, these suggestions are sincere and made in good spirit.
Hope you have a good year,
Brian
Most of our header sets seem to run fine without CELs when properly installed. A few guys have used spacers with good effect, but some have codes they haven't been able to solve. I'll point out that my observations only relate to Cattman headers.
There are two groups of Cattman header owners - the majority that have been able to install without lingering codes, and a minority with a variety of different codes involving either primary or secondary O2 sensors. Although there are many trouble-free 05+ Maxima and Altima installations, the troublesome CEL issues primarily effect the 05+ series due to the increased sensitivity of their air/fuel management systems.
When you consider it logically, if some run headers OK with a simulator or relocating O2 ports behind a working main cat in the y-pipe then that solution should, at least in theory, work on all cars but of course that's not always the case.
When CELs do come up, the patterns we see point to either 1) problems with the required electrical connections and/or splices (wrong connectors, poor soldering or wrong gauge or type of wire for extensions), and/or 2) a bad ground to the ECU, which is where the ground for the O2 sensors (and simulators) connects to the chassis (this is especially true with the Altimas). In most cases, effectively addressing these problems has eliminated the CEL, but a few guys have employed spacers with good effect too.
I wouldn't presume that you're looking to us for solutions here, but I do have two very sincere suggestions that I believe would eliminate the vast majority of the CEL issues that come up in header installations. The first would be a very high quality plug-and-play wiring extension kit to allow an easier and more reliable installation. These are needed for the primary sensors (since location of the primary O2 ports at the base of the 3-1 collector on properly designed headers puts them out of reach of the wiring harness) and the secondary sensor if they're being relocated behind a cat in a Racingline or Cattman y-pipe. You might ask why we haven't done this ourselves, and I'll just say its not for lack of trying - I've given up finding the right pins and plugs to do this (or a supplier who can just make one) and so have several others who started out confident and ended up defeated. Anyone who can pull this off will have my eternal admiration and I will pledge to be a customer. Just keep in mind the actual connections have to be the highest quality, because they are still potential interruptions or corruptions to the circuit and the 05+ Nissans are extremely sensitive to this.
Second contributing solution is much more simple, just including a wire in a grounding kit to create a better ground for the ECU (and instructions of where/how to attach it) - it seems like few kits do. I'm told by Nissan mechanics that the connection between the ECU and a crossbrace behind the dash is good, but the connection between the crossbrace and chassis is bad. I know this to be true about the Altima, but it may have relevance to the Maxima as well.
I'm not sure what inspired this thread, but please know that although we're competitors and have had some tense moments in the past, these suggestions are sincere and made in good spirit.
Hope you have a good year,
Brian
01-20-2010, 07:55 AM
#8
Supporting Maxima.org Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (20)
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: vancouver, BC
Posts: 589
Thank you Brian for the input, it was very informative and appreciated. What prompted this thread was 2 things; the knowledge that at least a few people were still seeing issues after installation, but from the sound of it your statement on wire selection and sizing could very well be the root for many people, in that they do not realize how sensitive the sensor is to resistance changes. The other came from a customer with an Evo X, they too see flow issues when upgrading their downpipes and the o2 sensor throws codes at them. The solution has been quite simple yet ingenious at he same time. A spacer is employed but the spacer is provided as a kit with removable "jets" to fine tune the flow rate the spacer sees. I figured this could very well help a few people in solving their SES issues if the SES was flow or contaminant related. Here is a pic, feel free to weigh in on if the part has any potential use for your header customers.
Although in theory this could work well on the secondary sensors in general, I'm personally not sure I'd endorse their use on the primaries.
Although in theory this could work well on the secondary sensors in general, I'm personally not sure I'd endorse their use on the primaries.
01-20-2010, 10:43 AM
#9
Spacers are more than likely a good fix for the P0138/0139 codes from the secondary o2 sensors, and a good alternative for those that don't want to deal with installing o2 simulators... could never get my simulators to work, so now I have to get at least one more o2 sensor and patch up the soldering/splicing. I should have gone this route from the very beginning.
But these will not work for the primary a/f sensors that are throwing lean codes for some of us... P1283/84 and/or P1273/74... I honestly don't think anything short of a tune will be able to fix those codes.
But these will not work for the primary a/f sensors that are throwing lean codes for some of us... P1283/84 and/or P1273/74... I honestly don't think anything short of a tune will be able to fix those codes.
01-20-2010, 10:49 AM
#10
Looks like a trick little kit, are you going to be selling these? Beats the somewhat crude sparkplug spacers. I agree with your point about only using these on the secondary sensors.
Brian
Brian
Thank you Brian for the input, it was very informative and appreciated. What prompted this thread was 2 things; the knowledge that at least a few people were still seeing issues after installation, but from the sound of it your statement on wire selection and sizing could very well be the root for many people, in that they do not realize how sensitive the sensor is to resistance changes. The other came from a customer with an Evo X, they too see flow issues when upgrading their downpipes and the o2 sensor throws codes at them. The solution has been quite simple yet ingenious at he same time. A spacer is employed but the spacer is provided as a kit with removable "jets" to fine tune the flow rate the spacer sees. I figured this could very well help a few people in solving their SES issues if the SES was flow or contaminant related. Here is a pic, feel free to weigh in on if the part has any potential use for your header customers.
Although in theory this could work well on the secondary sensors in general, I'm personally not sure I'd endorse their use on the primaries.
Although in theory this could work well on the secondary sensors in general, I'm personally not sure I'd endorse their use on the primaries.
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