Potential group deal: Whiteline Roll Center/Bump steer - Correction Kit
05-08-2022, 10:28 AM
#1
Potential group deal: Whiteline Roll Center/Bump steer - Correction Kit
We all know that Maximas don't look great when they're at the stock ride height, but unfortunately that's where the (admittedly poor) suspension geometry is at its best. When we lower these cars (especially 4th and 5th gens) we ruin the geometry even further and introduce other problems. I'll let the legendary Mike Kojima explain:
"The main problem with McPherson struts is as the car gets lowered, the lower control arm gets set to where it is actually pointing upwards towards the spindle. This causes two problems, one the roll center gets really low, this makes the distance between the roll center and the center of gravity longer. This distance is called the roll couple and it is the lever arm that centrifugal force uses to cause body roll. Longer roll couple more roll. The other problem is once the lower control arm angle to steering axis line gets to be greater than 90 degrees, the suspension will start to gain positive camber. This is not great as the car rolls, the tire will start tipping toward the outside putting the load on the outside edge of the tire.
The Nissan B14 Sentra and 200SX compacts have been popular cars to modify, especially the versions powered by the SR20DE engine. However, these cars have some most the most diabolical front-end geometries. When lowered these cars have half the amount of bump steer as wheel travel. This means when the suspension compresses an inch, the toe changes a half inch! They also gain positive camber as the vehicle rolls. This adds up to a vicious understeer that in the old days was tuned out by raising the rear spring rates to astronomical levels. They also have twitchy steering due to the bump steer."
The suspension in 4th and 5th gen Maximas is pretty similar to the Sentras mentioned above, and needs all the help it can get to function properly, especially when the car has been lowered. The lower you go, the worse the problems get. But there's a relatively easy way to fix those problems and get the geometry back to where it should be, and that's with extended ball joints and outer tie rods.
Whiteline makes roll center/bump steer correction kits for popular cars like the WRX/STI, Evo, and BRZ, but doesn't make anything for Maximas (yet). That's where you and I come in. As bad as I want a set for my car, Whiteline just isn't going to design and engineer a set just for me. They need to know there's a market for the product to justify the time and money that would go into designing a new kit. If I can show there's enough interest, Whiteline will develop a kit for ours cars. Plan on the kit costing around $300. I know the Maxima market isn't what it was 10-15 years ago, but I still think there are enough of us out there who would be willing to pay that amount to greatly improve the handling, steering, and stability of our cars. If you're interested please reply below and let me know if you have a 4th or 5th gen. As of now there are no plans to make these for 6th and 7th gen cars.
"The main problem with McPherson struts is as the car gets lowered, the lower control arm gets set to where it is actually pointing upwards towards the spindle. This causes two problems, one the roll center gets really low, this makes the distance between the roll center and the center of gravity longer. This distance is called the roll couple and it is the lever arm that centrifugal force uses to cause body roll. Longer roll couple more roll. The other problem is once the lower control arm angle to steering axis line gets to be greater than 90 degrees, the suspension will start to gain positive camber. This is not great as the car rolls, the tire will start tipping toward the outside putting the load on the outside edge of the tire.
The Nissan B14 Sentra and 200SX compacts have been popular cars to modify, especially the versions powered by the SR20DE engine. However, these cars have some most the most diabolical front-end geometries. When lowered these cars have half the amount of bump steer as wheel travel. This means when the suspension compresses an inch, the toe changes a half inch! They also gain positive camber as the vehicle rolls. This adds up to a vicious understeer that in the old days was tuned out by raising the rear spring rates to astronomical levels. They also have twitchy steering due to the bump steer."
The suspension in 4th and 5th gen Maximas is pretty similar to the Sentras mentioned above, and needs all the help it can get to function properly, especially when the car has been lowered. The lower you go, the worse the problems get. But there's a relatively easy way to fix those problems and get the geometry back to where it should be, and that's with extended ball joints and outer tie rods.
Whiteline makes roll center/bump steer correction kits for popular cars like the WRX/STI, Evo, and BRZ, but doesn't make anything for Maximas (yet). That's where you and I come in. As bad as I want a set for my car, Whiteline just isn't going to design and engineer a set just for me. They need to know there's a market for the product to justify the time and money that would go into designing a new kit. If I can show there's enough interest, Whiteline will develop a kit for ours cars. Plan on the kit costing around $300. I know the Maxima market isn't what it was 10-15 years ago, but I still think there are enough of us out there who would be willing to pay that amount to greatly improve the handling, steering, and stability of our cars. If you're interested please reply below and let me know if you have a 4th or 5th gen. As of now there are no plans to make these for 6th and 7th gen cars.
05-08-2022, 01:06 PM
#3
Raising the engine and transmission can help the axles. Red Lion Racing offered mounts for that.
05-08-2022, 05:38 PM
#4
Copy and pasted from your build thread:
TDM Imports made a bump steer kit that flips the position of the tie rod ends. They made my i30 handle way way worse in comparison to a stock setup. Very squirrely.
https://maxima.org/forums/4th-genera...-roll-kit.html
In retrospect the crappy handling could have been because I went from both the tie rod and LCA being past neutral and both pulling in under compression to the tie rod pushing out and LCA pulling in. So I went from toe out to toe in. If there was a kit that also made longer ball joint studs (not spacers because you need to lower the pivot point), it would probably work better.
TDM Imports made a bump steer kit that flips the position of the tie rod ends. They made my i30 handle way way worse in comparison to a stock setup. Very squirrely.
https://maxima.org/forums/4th-genera...-roll-kit.html
In retrospect the crappy handling could have been because I went from both the tie rod and LCA being past neutral and both pulling in under compression to the tie rod pushing out and LCA pulling in. So I went from toe out to toe in. If there was a kit that also made longer ball joint studs (not spacers because you need to lower the pivot point), it would probably work better.
05-08-2022, 05:56 PM
#5
Copy and pasted from your build thread:
TDM Imports made a bump steer kit that flips the position of the tie rod ends. They made my i30 handle way way worse in comparison to a stock setup. Very squirrely.
https://maxima.org/forums/4th-genera...-roll-kit.html
In retrospect the crappy handling could have been because I went from both the tie rod and LCA being past neutral and both pulling in under compression to the tie rod pushing out and LCA pulling in. So I went from toe out to toe in. If there was a kit that also made longer ball joint studs (not spacers because you need to lower the pivot point), it would probably work better.
TDM Imports made a bump steer kit that flips the position of the tie rod ends. They made my i30 handle way way worse in comparison to a stock setup. Very squirrely.
https://maxima.org/forums/4th-genera...-roll-kit.html
In retrospect the crappy handling could have been because I went from both the tie rod and LCA being past neutral and both pulling in under compression to the tie rod pushing out and LCA pulling in. So I went from toe out to toe in. If there was a kit that also made longer ball joint studs (not spacers because you need to lower the pivot point), it would probably work better.
Edit- Just gonna leave this link here for later. Can't believe I'm only seeing it now.
Last edited by 95maxrider; 05-08-2022 at 06:12 PM.
05-08-2022, 06:38 PM
#6
Edit- Just gonna leave this link here for later. Can't believe I'm only seeing it now.
05-09-2022, 12:31 PM
#7
Was doing some reading of the various links posted, still need to reread several times before I can comprehend it all though. I did see mentioned in one of the discussions of an issue with brake shield rubbing against the LCA - not sure if that would pertain to this setup or not. Im going to be running 13” rotors, would that cause fitment issues with this?
05-09-2022, 12:36 PM
#8
Was doing some reading of the various links posted, still need to reread several times before I can comprehend it all though. I did see mentioned in one of the discussions of an issue with brake shield rubbing against the LCA - not sure if that would pertain to this setup or not. Im going to be running 13” rotors, would that cause fitment issues with this?
05-09-2022, 01:22 PM
#9
It's too early to say yet. I'm currently running the Wilwood front BBK with 12.9" rotors, so I'd be in the same boat as you. In reading reviews about the Whiteline kits for other vehicles I don't see anyone complaining about that issue, so I'm hoping it wouldn't be an issue for us either.
Still very interested in this setup if its doable though, always down for things that increase performance.
05-18-2022, 07:06 PM
#10
Oh hai.
At least 1.
Should buy 2. Depends on how frisky im feeling come the time for moneez.
Food for thought/not relavant.
6th gen and newer vehicles have superb confidence on the road when it comes to bump steer and don't need these as bad as 4th/5ths do. Also 6th+ gens have non serviceable front lower ball joints/itd be a pita to press them out.
At least 1.
Should buy 2. Depends on how frisky im feeling come the time for moneez.
Food for thought/not relavant.
6th gen and newer vehicles have superb confidence on the road when it comes to bump steer and don't need these as bad as 4th/5ths do. Also 6th+ gens have non serviceable front lower ball joints/itd be a pita to press them out.
Last edited by aackshun; 05-18-2022 at 07:14 PM.
05-25-2022, 04:52 PM
#13
With any change of the tie rod's pivot point it changes the travel arc, when it is set lower it sounds like the bump steer causes a lot of toe out on compression/lift. Which would explain the poor stability and twitch when driving.
With the bump steer kit I used it was set to the highest point, almost near the stock location of the tie rods. Checked the bump steer and it looked good, so I left it at that. Future plan was to change the tie rod point once the control arms were lowered and recheck the bump steer, however said arm project never came to be and I left it at that.
In regards to the lower control arms I was going to say this is kind of beating a dead horse and how it won't happen. Though no company is going to attempt something with such a poor ROI on a 25 year old platform.
But I did a little internet searching. I would check out the BRZ front lower arms, they sell a similar extended ball joint and spacer for correcting the camber curve on those lowered cars. From what I can see the ball joint is pressed into the lowers similar to the 4th/5th gen Maxima.
The issue has always been finding a ball joint that mounts into the arm and not into the steering knuckle. Most of the platforms back in the day when I looked into this where in the knuckle, like the STI you have pictured.
If the dimensions are close it might be possible to fit the BRZ ball joints into the Maxima lower. With some modifications to the Maxima lowers and knuckles to accommodate the BRZ parts. Don't attempt to change the taper on the finished BRZ ball joint, the steel would probably chew up the lathe's bit anyways.
2J Racing makes kits for the B14 & B15, that might be another source from a Nissan. For example I am running a B14 adjustable bump steer kit and the taper on the outer tie rod to the knuckle is the same as the B14, the Maxima just has larger mounting hardware on the steering for a heavier car.
If I was still at this like I was 10 years ago I would look into that. From my track days on hard corners the camber curve goes positive even on my mildly lowered setup with -2.5 static camber. On track slicks it wasn't noticeable, with street summer tires I could feel the crap steering geometry.
With the bump steer kit I used it was set to the highest point, almost near the stock location of the tie rods. Checked the bump steer and it looked good, so I left it at that. Future plan was to change the tie rod point once the control arms were lowered and recheck the bump steer, however said arm project never came to be and I left it at that.
In regards to the lower control arms I was going to say this is kind of beating a dead horse and how it won't happen. Though no company is going to attempt something with such a poor ROI on a 25 year old platform.
But I did a little internet searching. I would check out the BRZ front lower arms, they sell a similar extended ball joint and spacer for correcting the camber curve on those lowered cars. From what I can see the ball joint is pressed into the lowers similar to the 4th/5th gen Maxima.
The issue has always been finding a ball joint that mounts into the arm and not into the steering knuckle. Most of the platforms back in the day when I looked into this where in the knuckle, like the STI you have pictured.
If the dimensions are close it might be possible to fit the BRZ ball joints into the Maxima lower. With some modifications to the Maxima lowers and knuckles to accommodate the BRZ parts. Don't attempt to change the taper on the finished BRZ ball joint, the steel would probably chew up the lathe's bit anyways.
2J Racing makes kits for the B14 & B15, that might be another source from a Nissan. For example I am running a B14 adjustable bump steer kit and the taper on the outer tie rod to the knuckle is the same as the B14, the Maxima just has larger mounting hardware on the steering for a heavier car.
If I was still at this like I was 10 years ago I would look into that. From my track days on hard corners the camber curve goes positive even on my mildly lowered setup with -2.5 static camber. On track slicks it wasn't noticeable, with street summer tires I could feel the crap steering geometry.
Last edited by 98SEBlackMax; 05-25-2022 at 06:27 PM.
06-02-2022, 11:36 AM
#14
With any change of the tie rod's pivot point it changes the travel arc, when it is set lower it sounds like the bump steer causes a lot of toe out on compression/lift. Which would explain the poor stability and twitch when driving.
With the bump steer kit I used it was set to the highest point, almost near the stock location of the tie rods. Checked the bump steer and it looked good, so I left it at that. Future plan was to change the tie rod point once the control arms were lowered and recheck the bump steer, however said arm project never came to be and I left it at that.
In regards to the lower control arms I was going to say this is kind of beating a dead horse and how it won't happen. Though no company is going to attempt something with such a poor ROI on a 25 year old platform.
But I did a little internet searching. I would check out the BRZ front lower arms, they sell a similar extended ball joint and spacer for correcting the camber curve on those lowered cars. From what I can see the ball joint is pressed into the lowers similar to the 4th/5th gen Maxima.
The issue has always been finding a ball joint that mounts into the arm and not into the steering knuckle. Most of the platforms back in the day when I looked into this where in the knuckle, like the STI you have pictured.
If the dimensions are close it might be possible to fit the BRZ ball joints into the Maxima lower. With some modifications to the Maxima lowers and knuckles to accommodate the BRZ parts. Don't attempt to change the taper on the finished BRZ ball joint, the steel would probably chew up the lathe's bit anyways.
2J Racing makes kits for the B14 & B15, that might be another source from a Nissan. For example I am running a B14 adjustable bump steer kit and the taper on the outer tie rod to the knuckle is the same as the B14, the Maxima just has larger mounting hardware on the steering for a heavier car.
If I was still at this like I was 10 years ago I would look into that. From my track days on hard corners the camber curve goes positive even on my mildly lowered setup with -2.5 static camber. On track slicks it wasn't noticeable, with street summer tires I could feel the crap steering geometry.
With the bump steer kit I used it was set to the highest point, almost near the stock location of the tie rods. Checked the bump steer and it looked good, so I left it at that. Future plan was to change the tie rod point once the control arms were lowered and recheck the bump steer, however said arm project never came to be and I left it at that.
In regards to the lower control arms I was going to say this is kind of beating a dead horse and how it won't happen. Though no company is going to attempt something with such a poor ROI on a 25 year old platform.
But I did a little internet searching. I would check out the BRZ front lower arms, they sell a similar extended ball joint and spacer for correcting the camber curve on those lowered cars. From what I can see the ball joint is pressed into the lowers similar to the 4th/5th gen Maxima.
The issue has always been finding a ball joint that mounts into the arm and not into the steering knuckle. Most of the platforms back in the day when I looked into this where in the knuckle, like the STI you have pictured.
If the dimensions are close it might be possible to fit the BRZ ball joints into the Maxima lower. With some modifications to the Maxima lowers and knuckles to accommodate the BRZ parts. Don't attempt to change the taper on the finished BRZ ball joint, the steel would probably chew up the lathe's bit anyways.
2J Racing makes kits for the B14 & B15, that might be another source from a Nissan. For example I am running a B14 adjustable bump steer kit and the taper on the outer tie rod to the knuckle is the same as the B14, the Maxima just has larger mounting hardware on the steering for a heavier car.
If I was still at this like I was 10 years ago I would look into that. From my track days on hard corners the camber curve goes positive even on my mildly lowered setup with -2.5 static camber. On track slicks it wasn't noticeable, with street summer tires I could feel the crap steering geometry.
So I've been doing some digging in anticipation of this not working out with Whiteline. According to my research, the A32 and A33 have the same Moog part number for the outer tie rod as the S14 (ES3438). The S13, B14, and B15 all share a different part number for the outer tie rod (ES2814RL). However, there is not a single overlapping part number for the ball joint for any of those applications. I wonder how different they really are though. This leads me to believe the 2JR kit will not easily be adapted for our application. And I heard through the grapevine that the quality of the kit is suspect, and the use of which has resulted in wrecked vehicles.
That led me on a search for S14 extended outer tie rods, and I came across a few. The most reputable of them are made by SPL. They aren't cheap, but SPL has a pretty stellar reputation for making quality parts. I trust them far more than TDMI.
So from what I understand, those should be a direct fit for us. Can anyone think of a reason why they wouldn't work? If they would, then that leaves the extended ball joint as the missing piece of the puzzle.
Buddy Club makes a variety of extended ball joints, and I'm in contact with them to see if anything they currently make could be made to work for us.
Gktech makes an extended ball joint for the S14, and I'm in contact with them to see if it could be made to work for us.
QA1 makes extended ball joints, but they're all way too big for our application. Same for AFCO.
Howe Racing makes a variety of individual ball joint parts, but I haven't had a chance to reach out to them yet. Does anyone see anything on their site that looks promising?
I'm also waiting to hear back from Whiteline on the dimensions of their BRZ ball joints to see how close they are to our parts.
I'm also trying to see if a vendor can put together anti-lift/dive correction kit for us. It won't be as simple as the 2JR kit for B15s, since the rear bushings for our LCAs are right up against the body, instead of in a housing that can be easily lowered. But that's a discussion for another thread.
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