Have the limits of the stock 3.5 block been found?
#1
3.5 in the works
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,477
Have the limits of the stock 3.5 block been found?
Very interesting post from Intense Motorsports over on my350z today:
http://www.my350z.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=269
Excerpts:
http://www.my350z.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=269
Excerpts:
Our 906whp stock sleeve, stock head gaskets, stock crank, stock ignition, standard ARP head studs, VQ35de was the first VQ we EVER built. We did ZERO research in what other builders were, had, or are doing. An engine is an engine. We didn't need to know what others had done because 95% of the builders still haven't achieved what we have in engineering.
(I can qualify and quantify this statement by the fact that we've had our hands in Adam Saruwatari's low 7-second 3.2L V6 NSX motor for over 6 years now)
http://www.carandmodel.com/featuredcar/4.php
If we had, wouldn't you agree that we would have upgraded the head studs to L19 or better?
Wouldn't you agree that we would have upgraded the head gaskets to HKS, or an alternative?
Wouldn't you agree that we would have upgraded the ignition to HKS, or an alternative?
ProEFI, PowerLab, and Intense teamed together to find the limitations of the stock block. Instead of reading up on what everyone else had done, and what was considered "true", we wanted to find out ourselves. On a completely bone stock motor, we bent every single rod at 540ft/tq and 600whp (perfect tune!). At that time the motor was pulled and stock bore pistons and after market rods were put in -- no machining to the block was done whatsoever.
At this time the testing of the stock sleeves was in order. The first test was with the PowerLab GT35R. We maxed the turbo out at 650whp. The next test was with the GT37R. We maxed that turbo out at just over 700whp. The final test was the 76S, which maxed out our clutch at 906whp -- sleeves still perfect! Again, all of these TESTS were with the stock block, no machine work, stock sleeves, stock head gaskets, stock ignition, stock crank. As you can see, we wanted to not only keep everything as stock as possible to be as true of a test as possible, but also to keep it cheap -- as to show everyone that with off the shelf parts, efficient off the shelf turbo system (PowerLab GT35R), and off the shelf engine management (ProEFI 48), reliable, high horsepower can be obtained by anyone!
You are correct that we learned the majority of our engineering from building 2zj-gte motors over the years -- and that's where the majority of our "expendable $$$" ended. We've also built 1400whp Viper motors, 1000whp 20b motors, and many many others. The common threads that links all of these successful motor builds are 2 things:
1. Efficient turbo systems
2. Efficient engine management (AEM at that time -- the designer of which, Jason Siebels, who quit AEM to start his own company.. ProEFI)
We took this philosophy and applied it to our first VQ build -- which still holds the world record for stock sleeve, stock crank VQ at 906whp. The SAME motor is in the world's quickest/fastest G35 coupe (11.00 @ 128mph) at only 600whp!
(I can qualify and quantify this statement by the fact that we've had our hands in Adam Saruwatari's low 7-second 3.2L V6 NSX motor for over 6 years now)
http://www.carandmodel.com/featuredcar/4.php
If we had, wouldn't you agree that we would have upgraded the head studs to L19 or better?
Wouldn't you agree that we would have upgraded the head gaskets to HKS, or an alternative?
Wouldn't you agree that we would have upgraded the ignition to HKS, or an alternative?
ProEFI, PowerLab, and Intense teamed together to find the limitations of the stock block. Instead of reading up on what everyone else had done, and what was considered "true", we wanted to find out ourselves. On a completely bone stock motor, we bent every single rod at 540ft/tq and 600whp (perfect tune!). At that time the motor was pulled and stock bore pistons and after market rods were put in -- no machining to the block was done whatsoever.
At this time the testing of the stock sleeves was in order. The first test was with the PowerLab GT35R. We maxed the turbo out at 650whp. The next test was with the GT37R. We maxed that turbo out at just over 700whp. The final test was the 76S, which maxed out our clutch at 906whp -- sleeves still perfect! Again, all of these TESTS were with the stock block, no machine work, stock sleeves, stock head gaskets, stock ignition, stock crank. As you can see, we wanted to not only keep everything as stock as possible to be as true of a test as possible, but also to keep it cheap -- as to show everyone that with off the shelf parts, efficient off the shelf turbo system (PowerLab GT35R), and off the shelf engine management (ProEFI 48), reliable, high horsepower can be obtained by anyone!
You are correct that we learned the majority of our engineering from building 2zj-gte motors over the years -- and that's where the majority of our "expendable $$$" ended. We've also built 1400whp Viper motors, 1000whp 20b motors, and many many others. The common threads that links all of these successful motor builds are 2 things:
1. Efficient turbo systems
2. Efficient engine management (AEM at that time -- the designer of which, Jason Siebels, who quit AEM to start his own company.. ProEFI)
We took this philosophy and applied it to our first VQ build -- which still holds the world record for stock sleeve, stock crank VQ at 906whp. The SAME motor is in the world's quickest/fastest G35 coupe (11.00 @ 128mph) at only 600whp!
#3
3.5 in the works
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,477
Well it seems we have an idea on the rods...
I just realized I posted this in all-motor, it probably should be in the boosted forum. Mods/Mike please move if you wish.
I just realized I posted this in all-motor, it probably should be in the boosted forum. Mods/Mike please move if you wish.
Last edited by DandyMax; 05-20-2008 at 02:25 PM.
#10
Nice of you to share this info with the org.
This is a great example of how important tuning is...
These guys are definitely going against the grain & I commend them for that.
My only problem with intense is the "roller coaster" dyno graphs
By the time it spools up the race will be over.... pure dyno queen,
Usless power. But thats just my opinion.
They dont have a far ways to go compared to injected/GTM/PF....
This is a great example of how important tuning is...
These guys are definitely going against the grain & I commend them for that.
My only problem with intense is the "roller coaster" dyno graphs
By the time it spools up the race will be over.... pure dyno queen,
Usless power. But thats just my opinion.
They dont have a far ways to go compared to injected/GTM/PF....
Last edited by accordingtou; 05-20-2008 at 09:59 PM.
#12
Supporting Maxima.org Member
iTrader: (29)
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Middleboro/Carver, Ma
Posts: 4,572
Considering Hal hit 501 ft/lb's on the little three-'oh I'm not terribly suprised. I remember asking Nismology in a PM what the rods on a 3.5 were good for, since I knew that they were the weak link, and he said about 550tq, it's funny because on my350 you see all the same retards who have nothing better to do than to try to be ******** and flame also insist that if you boost a stock block your a retard and it's going to blow up very soon. So ignorant. I'll be installing twins on an '06 soon, can't wait to throw 500 at that thing
Now, if only us FWD guys had a tran's capably of holding that................
Now, if only us FWD guys had a tran's capably of holding that................
#14
Considering Hal hit 501 ft/lb's on the little three-'oh I'm not terribly suprised. I remember asking Nismology in a PM what the rods on a 3.5 were good for, since I knew that they were the weak link, and he said about 550tq, it's funny because on my350 you see all the same retards who have nothing better to do than to try to be ******** and flame also insist that if you boost a stock block your a retard and it's going to blow up very soon. So ignorant. I'll be installing twins on an '06 soon, can't wait to throw 500 at that thing
Now, if only us FWD guys had a tran's capably of holding that................
Now, if only us FWD guys had a tran's capably of holding that................
#15
thanks for posting this info up for us to see...
that being said they take the vq35 in the proper orientation with a good/decent tranny in the g/z but they are owned by mostly tools and ricers who dont understand how to tune a car and just manage to spread fear though other up can coming peope who are going boost.
this is like when the 1.8t guy put down in the 700's on a stock block and people swore he couldnt do it because the engine wouldnt last due to others with bad tunes.
that being said they take the vq35 in the proper orientation with a good/decent tranny in the g/z but they are owned by mostly tools and ricers who dont understand how to tune a car and just manage to spread fear though other up can coming peope who are going boost.
this is like when the 1.8t guy put down in the 700's on a stock block and people swore he couldnt do it because the engine wouldnt last due to others with bad tunes.
#16
I assume the engine is put through it's paces and is holding well. Nice info. Should give good insight as to what makes an engine last under boost. If the key is tuning, I wonder what the ProEfi is doing that something like the UTECs cannot? Knock control perhaps?
#17
UTEC has a fabulous knock control, adjustable in 1k increments as to sensitivity as well as count threshold, knock retard step and maximum retard as well as a few other knock adjustments. Almost worth the price for knock control.
#20
#22
#23
yeah 4 digits are right there for a stock block A+!!!!!
on our FWDs the tranny might...the six speed might be alright because of all the wheelspin FTL LOL. not doing any bottom end work would be fine with me while still getting around 500/500. more than enough on our platform anyway IMO...........
on our FWDs the tranny might...the six speed might be alright because of all the wheelspin FTL LOL. not doing any bottom end work would be fine with me while still getting around 500/500. more than enough on our platform anyway IMO...........
#24
I figured I would add this little tid-bit of goodness to the thread since I just got this issue today:
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/ne...nge/index.html
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/ne...nge/index.html
#26
What I find odd though is the power number they are shooting for. They obviously want to win, and 400 BHP/3.8L = 105 BHP/L which is pretty respectable but I doubt they'll win. They even put in comparisons against what other people might be doing (twin turbo LS1, single turbo 2JZ, etc.) that all had much better power/displacement ratios even given the handicaps for turbocharged engines. I dunno, just an observation. Maybe they have more up their sleeves than they are letting on.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
coasterswim
8th Generation Maxima (2016-)
1
09-01-2015 05:27 PM
MaximaDrvr
7th Generation Maxima (2009-2015)
16
08-19-2015 08:20 PM