95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

I was on the phone with Ben at JWT talking about some tuning options (110 octane race fuel tune ) when I mentioned that I hadn't gotten my ECU reprogrammed after doing a complete DEK swap many years ago. Ben said I should really send the ECU back to them to be reprogrammed for the bigger injectors, which is something I've never even really thought about, but it makes sense. Every time I've dynoed, the AFR has always been about 12:1 below 6000 rpm and then slowly rises to 13:1 at 7000 rpm. I have a Nismo AFPR to dial out some fuel, but I'm really not sure what it's supposed to be set at for DEK injectors, I just kind of fooled with it until my AFR was about 13:1 at redline.

So this is also a question to all others with complete DEK swaps (including injectors). What did you do to compensate for the bigger injectors?

I had the DEK swap done in 2005 by Tilley, and while I seem to remember him splicing wiring for the DEK injectors, I would like to be sure that's what I have in my car before sending out the ECU to get a new map. Can anyone tell me if there is a visible difference between DE and DEK injectors, or do I need to get the part number off of it?

I'm also guessing a simple SAFC/VAFC tune wouldn't be able to do enough to compensate for the larger injectors? I have been thinking about getting one so I can run a BB MAF, but would like the best base tune possible so as little needs to be done as possible on the piggyback.

And just in case, here are some pics:




Any help would be appreciated, thanks!

essential1

iTrader: (5)

Yes those are dek injectors. You're also running a dek lower intake manifold.

You dont need to send it back to JWT to retune for that. Just get a piggy back and adjust with that. Your base tune is already good as it is and the minor difference in power you will get from those minute adjustments JWT will make, won't warrant the cost you'd pay for them to reprogram it.

Doing it this way will make it easier for the future if you happen to add other mods for whatever reason. You can actively tune to compensate without having to send it to JWT, pay them again, and wait for them to send it back again.

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Good, glad to know my memory isn't wrong.

JWT charges $100 to reprogram it, and an SAFC costs more than that and takes time to tune. I've never used one before, and am nervous about messing things up. Part of the problem is that my WBO2 stopped working (hoping that just the sensor died), so I won't be able to tune for myself until I get that fixed, and I have so many other things on my plate before racing season starts so tuning just isn't at the top of my list. I can always get the SAFC later when I have time to play around with it, but I just don't have that time right now.

I also have a general question about WBO2 sensor readings vs. tail pipe sniffers on a dyno. Every time I dyno the tailpipe sniffer always reads about +1 (leaner) than my WBO2 reads. I have an Innovate Motorsports WBO2, which is supposed to be the most accurate, and it always read 14.7 at idle, so I'm inclined to trust that over the sniffer. But if I had a shop tune my car with an SAFC with just by their sniffer, wouldn't that leave a lot of power on the table since they would think I'm running leaner than I actually am?

Thanks!

essential1

iTrader: (5)

Oh yea you're right. I forgt that if you already have the program from JWT it's only $100 to reprogram it. In that case, go right on ahead and do it.

While talking to a dyno operator a while back, he told me that the tail sniffer usually does read lower because it sits so far back in the exhaust stream. Don't quote me on that though. If you have a shop tune it, you can probably request that they tune it a little on the leaner side and see if there is any power increase. (to compensate for the richer reading) If there is no benefit on the power side, dial it back so that it's a little safer.

Crusher103

iTrader: (10)

I would rather get an emanage blue/gold vs V/SAFC and have somebody make a plug n play harness. It would be around the same price(ive seen people sell EBs for $60).

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

I'm scared of things I don't understand But then again I know very little about operating a V/SAFC Aren't the Greddy parts more difficult to install and operate? It would really help to be able to get in a Maxima with either installed so I can get a better feeling how they really operate.

schmellyfart

iTrader: (46)

They are selling them so cheap because its a PITA to find, install, update and use the software.
After dealing with an emanage blue on a local 5.5gen, I wouldn't hesitate to get a V/SAFC if I only wanted an afr tune. The money you save buying an emanage blue isn't worth the extra effort in my opinion.

essential1

iTrader: (5)

If you knew how simple it really is to operate a v/safc, you would ask yourself "why the hell did it take me so long to get one?" Lol.

Its literally just up, down, left, right, select, and a spinning dial. If you can play PlayStation, you can work an safc...lol

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

But what parameters would I be altering, just fuel injector pulse width (or something)? Do you set it for every 100 rpms in the rev band? I would need a functioning WBO2 to do that, correct? And to correct for a BB MAF, there's something for MAF scaling, right?

For some reason, I've had the idea that things like SAFCs don't work well with JWT ECUs, but apparently that isn't true at all, so I'm more inclined to get one along with a new map from JWT.

BTW, how could you tell these are DEK injectors?

essential1

iTrader: (5)

All it does is alter the maf voltage. Basically tricking the maf into thinking it's seeing more or less air which then tells the ecu to add more or less fuel. You can set the rpm increments to your liking. (With in the 12 points the safc has or the 24 of the vafc.) You would need a wideband just like any other piggyback system. They can scale the maf but the safc does it better. It works very well on top of the jwt ecu. A local was running like this till he switched to the emanage and his tune was spot on and smooth all the way to 7200.

A32 injectors look nothing like that. When you see one, you'll know. Lol.

Crusher103

iTrader: (10)

huh? Are you serious? There is a whole yahoo group that has all the updates and tuning software for free along with tunes for various cars.

here it is actually:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/emanage/files/

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Is there a reason why the SAFC does MAF better than the VAFC? The 24 points of the VAFC is appealing, but not if it's missing a feature compared to the SAFC.

schmellyfart

iTrader: (46)

Yep, Its been working against us nearly every step of the way.

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

i would not bother to reprogram for DEK injectors. you might gain 1-2hp. there is very little power to be gained from tiny AFR changes, especially on an NA car.

beyond the unnoticeable gain, i would not trust JWT to do a custom reprogram a) well and b) in a timely manner.

Crusher103

iTrader: (10)

thats weird, updating my firmware was very easy and overall use of the software as well as making adjustments is almost child's play. I can understand updating and E-01, that can get alittle tricky with its SD card and its .ini file iirc. Also on the newest firmware 1.49, it converts your blue to a gold, much better injector control and a funny feature they added, if you have a good working wideband, link it to the EB and it can tune itself.

cw96

iTrader: (31)

You definitely need to get something to adjust the air fuel mixture. The easy way is to just get a VAFC so you can get 24 points of tuning plus use the vtec control to open the DEK manifold instead of the rpm switch. My 1st DEK swap years ago went to the dyno and put down 185whp with full DEK, short ram intake,y-pipe,jwt ecu. Went back after installing a VAFC , wideband and dynoed over 200whp. Felt like a different car.You are leaving horsepower lying on the table when you can't adjust your A/F ratios where they need to be especially if your a/f is running around 12.1

schmellyfart

iTrader: (46)

Good to know that it can be easily done. We're going to give it another go this summer when he is back in state. I'll hit you up should we run into any more issues.

shrek

another thing to keep in mind is that by leaning the mixture you get a little of timing advance,i think that you'll feel more power because of the added timing and not so much because the leaner mixture,

95naSTA

iTrader: (10)

Have you done this and does it work well?

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Ok, so this brings up the question of whether I should just fix it with a SAFC or send it to JWT? And then if I get a SAFC, is there any reason to spend almost $400 on the new version, or would a used version be just as good?

For my NA car, my goal would be to have my AFR at 13:1 the whole time, right? Are there any times you would want to have the car run richer or leaner than that at any time in the RPM band?

essential1

iTrader: (5)

Basically, from us 5th Gen guys experimenting with both, the safc can scale for a larger maf without a problem using the IN/OUT settings. The vafc has pretty much the same interface. But we haven't had any luck at all with it when going to a different maf. The 24 tuning points do help make a smoother tune, but JWT tunes are usually pretty flat to begin with so 24 usually isn't needed. It also can control your switchover point so you can get rid of the rpm switch. But that's up to you.


I've glanced at the benefits to converting to gold but haven't looked to deep into it. What else does it add? And does better injector control mean that you can also subtract inj pulse width too vs just adding? As far as I know, you can only subtract.

JWT already advances the timing quite a bit. So he wont gain too much from that if any at all.

ajcool2

iTrader: (43)

I would say have the ECU reflashed. Its simple and cheap.

Crusher103

iTrader: (10)

Not yet but i will be giving it a shot.

Yes. You have full control over the fuel trim. So its not just adding and modding the maf signal to take away fuel anymore. It can also eliminate the MAF.

Crusher103

iTrader: (10)

That could take forever thou. I was talking to somebody who was selling one and he said he had to wait 6 months to get his ECU back from a retune.

essential1

iTrader: (5)

Nice. That was the thing that kept me from getting the EB. We should see maxima owners extending the revs with the EB now. How about ign. adjustments? Is that still the same?

98SEBlackMax

iTrader: (9)

I would leave the A/F alone as is, especially if JWT advanced the timing. There is some power to be had if you go from 12.0 to 12.5, but not very much. I've chased a couple of HP and TQ on a dyno messing around with the A/F, but timing advance and other mods will yield more power.

Also IMO you want to run that fuel map you already have if your going to be running road course events. The lower A/F is a good thing to keep the EGTs down after 20~30 mins on the road course. I like to think of A/F more as a way of controlling EGTs when driving the car hard than a way of making power. Though if its like 10~11:1 A/F then yes there is power to be gained.

I can tell you of a couple horror stories with the EVO/STI crowd that run the cookie cutter tunes on a road course and damage or kill motors. Some of these tunes run higher boost, advanced timing, and use lean A/F tuning to extract the most HP for bragging rights. Works great for dyno pulls and 1/4 mile times, not so great on a track.

Also tail pipe readers can be off a bit on the dyno, you have to remove all cat converters in the exhaust to get a more accurate reading. I run a resonated test pipe when I dyno test my car.

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Hmm, that's definitely something I didn't think about. I'm certainly not interested in getting an extra 5 whp if it means putting my engine at risk.

My only thoughts are that if they lean out everything below 6000 and make my AFR 13:1 across the board, then I could just bump up my fuel pressure by 1-2 PSI to bring it all down to 12.5. Or does FP not work quite like that? I think 13:1 at redline is just a little too lean if I'm going to be road coursing the car, so keeping it below 12.5 would be perfect.

And for dynoing, I haven't had a cat on my car for years now, so that isn't a factor

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Since I have no desire to have the VAFC replace my RPM switch for my IM, it sounds like the SAFC would be the better bet if I plan on doing the BB MAF in the future, correct? Are there any other reasons why the VAFC would be superior? How do tuning points work exactly? Let's say I want to add fuel from 6000-7000 rpm, would I just use 10 tuning points at 100 rpm intervals and the computer would smooth it all out for me?

Or would my money be better spent on the new SAFC Neo? Apparently it combines the tools of the SAFC and VAFC into one unit, but only has 16 tuning points. Would this be worth the extra money over an old SAFC?

Since my AFR is so smooth below 6000 rpm, would it make sense to just add fuel above 6000 so the AFR is 12:1 across the rev band and then just turn down the FP a little bit to get it all closer to 13:1? Would my AFR drop the same amount across the rev band or is it not linear?

Grand_hustle17

iTrader: (22)

"bring it back for a tune"...... tell "ben" to offer a DEK ECU upgrade so you truely have a full ECU swap lol... damn it them dudes up at JWT really need to just give us DEK owners something to feed after... i wouldnt mind a JWT ECU upgrade in my AE lol..... anyways now that ive ranted on that.... back to the topic.... i dont think the ECU would have to be sent back in... thats a nice sales pitch, like somebody said, just use an AFC of some sort to tune

essential1

iTrader: (5)

SAFC will suffice for you.

The way the tuning points work is that you have 12 spots (for the SAFC) that you can make an adjustment in the rpm range. You can make those 12 points whatever you want them to be. For instance...

2000
2500
3000
3500
3750
4000
4500
5000
5250
5500
6000
6500

OR

4000
4200
4400
4600
5000
5300
5600
5800
6000
6100
6200

These are just random numbers I spit out, but you can do exactly that (within 100rpm increments if i recall correctly though). So if your tune is fine below 6000, you can essentially set your tuning points from there on to redline to get the finest scale of tuning possible. Such as...

6100
6200
6300
6400
6500
6600
6700
6800
6900
7000
7100
7200

Chances are, you aren't going to need to set the points that close, but the option is in fact there if you need to. Hence, I helped a friend of mine tune his maxima with JWT ECU and VAFC on top of it. I didn't even use all 24 tuning points on that car because the tune was pretty smooth to begin with. It was a little on the lean side so we just dialed in a little more fuel through out the rev range.


I would be one of the first in line for this. Got my spare ECU(s) ready to send off sitting right here next to me. lol

Grand_hustle17

iTrader: (22)

id rob a bank only for the cost of the ECU then be 2nd in line.... hey sential... go ask em

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Alrighty, I purchased a used SAFC2 and started reading the manuals, but came across a problem.

My JWT ECU is actually from a 97 Maxima (build date unknown). I keep my stock I30 ECU for passing emission every two years since the Maxima ECU throws a bunch of emissions related codes that don't affect driveability. In the "Wiring Diagram by Model" manual, there are a few options for A32s.

For A32 from 97.1-98.11, I need to refer to terminal drawing N6-c.
For A32 from 94.8-96.12, I need to refer to terminal drawing N4-b.

My car was built in 95.5.

Since the only things I've changed is the actual ECU and none of the wiring harness, I assume I should refer to the N4-b diagram. Is this correct? Once I install and tune the SAFC will I still be able to switch out ECUs when needed? Apparently the SAFC has a memory, so I'm hoping it will keep its tune even after switching ECUs. Can anyone verify that?

The SAFC I bought didn't come with any of the manuals, and I was able to download the "Instruction Manual" and "Wiring Diagram by Model", but I can't find a copy of the "Collection of Setting Data" anywhere. I sent an email to APEXI, but if anyone knows how I can get a copy of that, I would love to hear it.

Thanks guys!

Oh, and if anyone knows of a BB MAF for a 4th gen that isn't being used, I would love to buy it