***WARNING to all ES control arm bushing owners***
01-11-2005, 05:16 AM
#1
***WARNING to all ES control arm bushing owners***
Yesterday, I was coming around a freeway onramp and thought I heard something fall off my car. When I got home, I couldn't see anything obviously missing, so I didn't think much about it.
Later, as we were driving to the store (on the freeway again) I noticed my alignment was getting farther and farther out of whack as we drove. By the time we got to where we were going, I had to hold the turned about 40 degrees to go straight.
We parked and I noticed the left front wheel looked a little out of whack, like this:
I looked under the car and was horrified to see that the front nut on the control arm had come off
The control arm was in the process of coming off the car, like this:
I am soooooo lucky I caught this before something really bad happened at 70mph on the way home. Luckily, we went home like this:
Anyone who has installed ES control arm bushings, please go back and double check that the control arm nuts are tight and hit them with some loctite. Don't let this happen to you.
Later, as we were driving to the store (on the freeway again) I noticed my alignment was getting farther and farther out of whack as we drove. By the time we got to where we were going, I had to hold the turned about 40 degrees to go straight.
We parked and I noticed the left front wheel looked a little out of whack, like this:
I looked under the car and was horrified to see that the front nut on the control arm had come off
The control arm was in the process of coming off the car, like this:I am soooooo lucky I caught this before something really bad happened at 70mph on the way home. Luckily, we went home like this:
Anyone who has installed ES control arm bushings, please go back and double check that the control arm nuts are tight and hit them with some loctite. Don't let this happen to you.
01-11-2005, 05:46 AM
#4
wow man, thats scary just lookin and thinkin about it. its good that stuff like that comes to be commonplace after modding a car. when you hear a noise or something unusual, you wanna check it out, especially cuz you know you just changed something. just dont think about what could have happened, cuz you will drive yourself nuts.
im definitley gonna make sure me and whoever does this tightens them as much as possible with Locktite.
im definitley gonna make sure me and whoever does this tightens them as much as possible with Locktite.
I just had ES LCA bushings installed yesterday. Loctiting them will be my project later this afternoon. Thanks for the heads up.
01-11-2005, 08:40 AM
#7
Originally Posted by Cutlr7
Damn Ben, I am glad you are alright. How the hell did your LCA come loose? Was it tightened with air when you reinstalled it the first time????
I ordered the nut and washer today, should be here by the end of the week.
01-11-2005, 09:30 AM
#8
Donating Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,941
Woah scary. I guess I should check those nuts later on sometime. I don't know if the 4th Gen spec is different, but I just tightened them to whatever the FSM suggested (for 3rd Gen). When I was putting things back together, I tried looking in the FSM for directions to use threadlocker anywhere, but didn't see any, so I didn't use any anywhere....
This was about 2 weeks ago now. When did you install yours?
This was about 2 weeks ago now. When did you install yours?
01-11-2005, 10:24 AM
#11
Good catch, although I don't think the control arm would have come completely off because the tranny is in the way. can't tell from those pics, but I know it's close on the auto trannies. But it's always better to be safe than sorry.
Those nuts are nylock type locknuts.. they shouldn't have come off if they were torqued properly, and the nylon insert should have kept it from backing off as well. From all of the grease on the gusset, it looks to me like the nut didn't have anything to grab onto to hold it in place because of all the lube, which is what caused it to back off. I'm not saying you didn't do the install right, but there are several factors here that had to happen for that to come off. The good thing is that you were astute enough to catch it before something nasty happened!
When you put it back together, make sure the threads on the gusset are clean and dry. a bit of anti sieze wouldn't hurt, but only put it where the metal threads are in contact with the nut, behind the nylock section. that will allow the nylon part to still grip onto the clean metal and hold the nut in place if that ever happens again...
And proper torque... #4 on my impact wrench for about 10 seconds.
the FSM lists it at 87-108 ft.lb... but moe will never hurt on that one!
Those nuts are nylock type locknuts.. they shouldn't have come off if they were torqued properly, and the nylon insert should have kept it from backing off as well. From all of the grease on the gusset, it looks to me like the nut didn't have anything to grab onto to hold it in place because of all the lube, which is what caused it to back off. I'm not saying you didn't do the install right, but there are several factors here that had to happen for that to come off. The good thing is that you were astute enough to catch it before something nasty happened!
When you put it back together, make sure the threads on the gusset are clean and dry. a bit of anti sieze wouldn't hurt, but only put it where the metal threads are in contact with the nut, behind the nylock section. that will allow the nylon part to still grip onto the clean metal and hold the nut in place if that ever happens again...
And proper torque... #4 on my impact wrench for about 10 seconds.
the FSM lists it at 87-108 ft.lb... but moe will never hurt on that one!
01-11-2005, 10:26 AM
#13
Originally Posted by Jeff92se
Maybe one should use new nylon nuts.
01-11-2005, 10:28 AM
#15
Well at some point the nylon won't grip anymore. Nature of the beast. Couldn't hurt.
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
I've pulled mine off a dozen + times to work on the suspension, and they still grip just fine.. I can't turn them by hand, and it takes definite force to turn them with a ratchet...
01-11-2005, 11:22 AM
#17
I don't understand why many are saying air tools would make this better. That is totally not true. On most residential impact guns you can get 400-500 ft/lbs. If the FSM calls for 150 ft/lb then you could easily get that with a 1/2" drive wrench. Put a breaker bar on there and 300 ft/lbs is no problem. It is clear that this didn't happen because of undertorqueing. Thanks for the headsup Ben. I'll be doing mine with loctite and a breaker bar. OEM torque specs no longer apply with different equipment.
01-11-2005, 11:40 AM
#18
How is it clear this didn't happen from undertorquing?
Actually, that's exactly where the evidence points.. but there are too many variables in there to say that's a definite cause.
I've had the ES bushings on my car for well over a year and have installed them on probably a dozen customer cars and have yet to have any come loose. most of my customers have come back for additional work, and I check those things over when I see them again.
Actually, that's exactly where the evidence points.. but there are too many variables in there to say that's a definite cause.
I've had the ES bushings on my car for well over a year and have installed them on probably a dozen customer cars and have yet to have any come loose. most of my customers have come back for additional work, and I check those things over when I see them again.
01-11-2005, 11:50 AM
#19
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
How is it clear this didn't happen from undertorquing?
Actually, that's exactly where the evidence points.. but there are too many variables in there to say that's a definite cause.
Actually, that's exactly where the evidence points.. but there are too many variables in there to say that's a definite cause.
I think the problem was the grease that I applied "liberally" to all the bushing components. That probably contaminated the threads.
01-11-2005, 12:48 PM
#23
Originally Posted by Broaner
I'll be doing mine with loctite and a breaker bar. OEM torque specs no longer apply with different equipment.
OEM specs are what the car was designed around..... Back to the rear of the class Broaner
01-11-2005, 01:18 PM
#24
Didn't something similar to this happen to another .org member, only that was his mounting nut BREAKING off?
Scary stuff. I'm keeping this in mind when I have mine installed.
Scary stuff. I'm keeping this in mind when I have mine installed.
01-11-2005, 01:44 PM
#25
Glad you're ok Ben. I had a similar problem in November. Re-used the OEM washers instead of the beefy ES ones. I had bought the control arms used with the ES pre-pressed. Never knew better washers existed and my drivers side snapped on me. My alignment prob was considerably worse.
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=351814
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=351814
01-11-2005, 02:25 PM
#26
Donating Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,941
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
Those nuts are nylock type locknuts.. they shouldn't have come off if they were torqued properly, and the nylon insert should have kept it from backing off as well.
I'm 95% sure the nuts on my car were NOT Nylock type, but everything was all OE when I took it all apart....I'll go take another look at them to verify, but I guess I should replace them with the Nylock type then?
01-11-2005, 04:47 PM
#28
Originally Posted by Bman
Hey Matt, have you ever run across a 3rd Gen with regular non-Nylock nuts? I'm 95% sure the nuts on my car were NOT Nylock type, but everything was all OE when I took it all apart....
I'll go take another look at them to verify, but I guess I should replace them with the Nylock type then?
I'm 95% sure the nuts on my car were NOT Nylock type, but everything was all OE when I took it all apart....I'll go take another look at them to verify, but I guess I should replace them with the Nylock type then?
Nope.. Almost ALL Maximas use the same nut. They started with the 2nd gen, and used the same part number up until the early 5th gens.. then they switched to an all metal one and omitted the washer.. that lasted for about six months, then they went back to the nylock nut.
If your car was every in a body shop for major damage, they might have replaced them with parts store stuff then. I can get a couple different types of nuts that size from my fastener vendors...
01-11-2005, 07:52 PM
#31
Originally Posted by Cutlr7
Who taught you that????? OEM specs are what the car was designed around..... Back to the rear of the class Broaner
OEM specs are what the car was designed around..... Back to the rear of the class Broaner
01-11-2005, 09:49 PM
#32
Donating Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,941
Originally Posted by Broaner
People that think torque specs don't change with different material parts need a reality check. Lets think about this. The OEM bushing is rubber and is designed to deflect a bit. Replace those bushings with these and the deflection will be nearly eliminated. Yet, "the car was designed around" the fact that the rubber bushings would compress under torquing. Since the urethane bushings don't deflect as much the nut will be in a different position(not as deep on the threads) when it reaches the recomended torque. How this will effect the performance of the part is irrelevant to our disagreement. I love it when people call out someones logic for the soul reason that they are young.
01-12-2005, 05:03 AM
#35
I was told that the grease is used to simply make it easier to slide the new pieces onto the control arm, with that said I didnt even bother putting any. Like someone else said, it looks like you put a bit too much allowing for some play and it ended up coming loose on your.
01-12-2005, 05:13 AM
#36
I looked again at my invoice from the nissan dealer. The nut is listed as "nut", but the washer is listed as "washer - pla." I hope it's not a plastic washer.
Either way, I still have the OEM washer in the garage. Good thing I'm a pack rat...
Either way, I still have the OEM washer in the garage. Good thing I'm a pack rat...
01-12-2005, 05:22 AM
#37
like I said.. You can use a 5/8" flat washer and dremel the center out a bit if the new one comes in and it's the wrong thing.
But I just looked it up in FAST and those are the right numbers. the washer is listed as "washer-plain" in the program, but it's the same part number.
As long as it's not those crappy triangle shaped washers like what BEJAY had, you should be fine.
But I just looked it up in FAST and those are the right numbers. the washer is listed as "washer-plain" in the program, but it's the same part number.
As long as it's not those crappy triangle shaped washers like what BEJAY had, you should be fine.
01-12-2005, 08:10 AM
#38
Donating Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,941
I just noticed something, and I don't know if this is a 3rd vs 4th Gen thing, but I see that there is a washer behind the bushing.... does the 4th Gen have TWO washers, one behind and one in front, or is something wrong with this picture?
My 3rd Gen only had one washer in the front...
but now that I think about it, a second washer in the back wouldn't be a bad idea to keep the bushing from walking out (Matt???).
My 3rd Gen only had one washer in the front...
but now that I think about it, a second washer in the back wouldn't be a bad idea to keep the bushing from walking out (Matt???).
01-12-2005, 08:13 AM
#39
The factory setup only has a washer on the front, but the ES bushing set needs two to hold the bushings in place. As you can see form the pics above, they're just pressed in by hand and will walk out if there's not a washer holding them in.
Of the dozen or so ES kits I've installed, *MOST* of them had the washers in them, but a couple sets were missing them. strange. I contacted ES about it and they said it was a mistake and they would go through the kits again and check things over.
Of the dozen or so ES kits I've installed, *MOST* of them had the washers in them, but a couple sets were missing them. strange. I contacted ES about it and they said it was a mistake and they would go through the kits again and check things over.
01-12-2005, 08:15 AM
#40
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
Of the dozen or so ES kits I've installed, *MOST* of them had the washers in them, but a couple sets were missing them. strange. I contacted ES about it and they said it was a mistake and they would go through the kits again and check things over.