This weekend I FINALLY got around to installing my $tealin RSB. Directions sucked as usual, so I used Paul6speeds oldies but goodies and pmas pictures and ended up going on my own. Both were different from my setup, so I chose to go with what I knew worked.

Anyways, what a difference this made. So far, I've only really pushed it hard between 65-85mph and it ROCKS!!! No doubt about it. Sorry to anyone who thinks I may be overplaying this mod, but I'm a very very skeptical person and I'm VERY amazed.

My .02, which aint worth jack!

[engrish]
IF you have stock suspension/tires as I do and you push hard, say 75-85mph in a 55mph posted corner on a regular basis you will notice this mod like friggen night-and-day. About once a month for ~7yrs. I travel home and go through a 20 mile stretch of curves, so I know them well. I typically push into the corners(no brakes allowed!), traffic permitting, about 20-25mph above the posted limit.

In the past, I nievely(sp?) ran 40+psi(usually 43psi) tire pressures and would get a very twitchy/unstable sensation as I pulled these corners MOSTLY from the rear of the car. The steering inputs, ie changes in direction, had to be VERY small or I would have to use the brakes. Smooth and consistent steering input is the only pretty way at these speeds. BTW, I've driven NUMEROUS cars through this same stretch of road, so it's NOT just Maximas' can't handle it.

Recently, thanks to some people on this board(read link in sig) who talked some sense into me, I dropped to 34-36psi for these road trips. The at limit twitchiness almost disappeared. However, I would get a lift/unsettling feeling like the rear inside tire wanted to lift up. This was my indicator that I was at the limit and I'd hold the steering wheel straight or ease off throttle. I don't push the car far enough to squeal the tires for a 4-wheel drift or anything, but I do get some understeer that I have to correct for. This rear lifting sensation feels like severe body roll and would occur badly if I jerk the wheel or move it too aggressively.

So, I install the RSB and drive two sets of curvy roads each within a day of each other, where one set is the 20 mile stretch. Basically, the car feels 80% more stable, because the rear remains PERFECTLY flat with no sign of body roll at the same ~75-80mph. I couldn't push the speeds higher because of traffic, but I know for a fact I can increase the speed easily. It feels like I'm not even pushing that hard, when I'm going the EXACT same speed!! I still haven't found MY new "at limit" point, but in another 3wks I'll be able to push it again.

I definitely need lowering springs to reduce the slight body roll. Then tires.
[/engrish]

 

u can 'feel' the difference more if you have near stock suspension.
if you already have stiff shocks/springs, the difference you 'feel' is very little..that may have been the factor...

do be careful with the RSB tho..it tends to oversteer alot more than before and you will lose your rear end once you hit/pass the limit.

 

I agree it's because I have stock suspension that I feel it more, but that's why I wanted it first. The rest is fine tuning. IMO, the RSB is a mandatory mod that should be stock from the factory.

Honestly, I prefer oversteer.

 

The Moderators have spoken...I'll be getting mine for x-mas

I too like to do one mod at a time (not that I've done much) to see what kind of difference it makes. I've got my FSTB sitting in my basement. Once I install and get tired of that I'll put in the RSB.

One question, can you explain the meaning of "oversteer" and "understeer". I'm sure I've experianced them both, but I never truly read a definition on either. Just that some cars have one, some cars have the other.

Thanks!

 

Under mild to moderate driving, a little oversteer will make the car feel more responsive, and it may be of benefit to get the car to rotate during an autocross (where the speeds are low and the probable consequences of a spin are usually limited to knocking over a cone or two plus some embarassment).

But it's not what you want in street driving should you find yourself rapidly approaching the limit of rear tire lateral grip. It's trickier to get a "loose" FWD car back under control once it starts to spin (compared to an equally tail-happy RWD car), since backing out of the throttle makes things worse and adding throttle when you're running out of road may not be the answer either. Been there, done that, in 55-ish mph conditions on dry pavement. I'll save my seat-pucker workout for the roller coaster, thank you.

You'll want slightly different pressures front vs rear than with everything OE, and it's more important to keep tabs on them.

Don't take this to mean that I'm against RSB's. I'm not. Just that it really is possible to have too much of a good thing.

Norm

 

I had RSB on my 2000 SE and never really felt that bigger of a difference. It does make the rear a little bit more solid.
I took it off before I sold the car and drove couple days without it, and I couldn't notice a difference without RSB being there.

Max already pretty solid in the rear, thanks to supid rear beam.

 

YOU are a moderator....what is this world coming to?

I want one too. So if you snap some of your patented pics to show what you did different.

Did you pick up new or used?

I am having Pilot A/S put on this week and have been trying to figure out what springs to put on as I want to drop just a tad. I dont to give up the comfy highway ride. But want a bit more control on "maneuvers".

 

I would suggest you also try different front and rear pressures, like 37 psi in front and 30-32 in the rear. You get enhanced road feel in the front, making you much more confident in turns, and the rear still holds on and doesn't slow you down either b/c the back end is so light.

DW

 

I agree. I should have clearified that statement to say in some situations/vehicles I prefer SOME oversteer.

I have not experienced oversteer from the RSB, but I haven't pushed it to MY limit either. MY limit may not be near what's required to see oversteer/understeer at the verge of loss of traction.

 

I'm not an expert, but from my experience in layman terms:

Understeer means as you turn the steering wheel, the car turns LESS than you are, therefore you must turn the wheel farther to accomplish the turn.

Oversteer is the opposite, as you turn the steering wheel, the car turns MORE than you are, therefore you must back off to accomplish the turn.

I know people are going to say it's not all that, but for me that's my best description. You can search the net and find MUCH better definitions of how and why each occur.

 

I'm NOT a moderator.

No pics sorry. I was late for another dinner and had to rush. If I get a chance to borrow a camera I'll take one, since all you need to know is WHERE to place the blue brackets, otherwise it's straight forward.

I got it new when Tustin Nissan had a killer(read incorrect) price that I couldn't pass up.

Sounds like H&Rs are your springs. I've already got new struts, now I just need to make up my FRIGGEN mind on springs.

 

Hmmmmn. That's interesting.

I have a digital Accutire guage now, so I may try playing with some different F/R pressures.

Thanks.

 

well...........











that's pretty much it!

 

Lrvin...G78

 

Honestly, you shouldnt experience oversteer on the streets unless you are doing something wrong. On a race track its a different story. My rear came around on a couple occasions due to poor braking.

 

I have NOT experienced oversteer in my Maxima.

Only in my friends '67 Camaro and company mini-Kart at the track, with help of course!

 

Lrvin. w00t w00t.

 

That makes sense...thanks

 

I knew you would like that lcf, aka lucifer.


It's funny, when someone actually gets my off-beat humor.

 

I agree

 

RSB makes you feel you're driving a completely different car... Worth the investment!

 

You shouldn't have any oversteering problems with the Max even with an RSB.

Unless you do the following:

1) Drive fast, turn and brake: Duh...
2) Drive fast at high RPMs, turn and let go off the gas: Most common scenario. Someone drives hard at say 5500 RPMs, finds out they're taking the turn too fast which causes some understeering, therefore they need to slow down. They think and they know they shouldn't apply the brakes (read point 1) and let go off the gas to slow down. Problem is that at high RPMs, the engine braking is stronger which causes the car to slow down harder and in the end, it oversteers as if you were braking. It's the same scenario as point 1 but with less braking than using the actual brakes so one needs to be much closer to the limit for this to take place.

In a FWD/Front Engine with the weight distribution being much higher in the front, as long as you keep even throttle or you're accelerating, you won't oversteer.
The RSB does cause a greater tendency to oversteer for other reasons but if you refrain from turning and slowing the car down, you shouldn't have any problems. From racing the Max with an RSB, oversteering is the least of my problems, plowing straight through a turn from understeering on the other hand, is a problem.
Anyway, that's just my 2 cents. Comments/criticism is welcomed.

 

You can add excessive front to rear tire pressure differential to that list (particularly at low rear pressures - in the extreme, even adding throttle may not help). And probably some combinations of shocks or shock settings.

Norm

 

Let me expand on the tire pressure thing a little . . .

For my normal street driving, I've more or less settled on about 35 - 36 psi in the front, and about 28 - 29 in the rear (justified from a load capacity point of view by seldom having back seat passengers). For me, the car feels a bit more nimble that way.

There is one particular on-ramp not far from where I live on which the car is essentially neutral with leading throttle in 3rd gear. Feeling-wise, I don't quite have to unwind the steering to stay on my chosen line, nor is more steering input required if I add throttle more rapidly. It's not bumpy, off-camber, sharply banked, or anything else geometric that I've been able to determine.

I'm reasonably convinced that if I made the tire pressure differential larger by 2 psi or so (particularly if I accomplished that by dropping the rear tires to 26 psi and leaving the fronts alone) that I'd be enough looser to require taking out a little of the steering.

That can't be the only stretch of pavement in North America where the 5th gen will behave that way . . .

Norm

 

Yes, I agree there are in fact other ways but those are more extreme. I'm assuming the tire pressure is stock and the suspension is not too screwed around with. There are so many small details to play with to change the way the car behaves that it would be very hard to name them all.

 

How does one go about "tuning" the handling of the car CORRECTLY?

Where do I start? How do I test? Is this possible for someone to do withOUT professional experience?

I'm leaning towards suspension next and MAYBE even adjustable coilovers, but those need tuning and I'm a noob. Help!

 

Get Grand Turismo 3, change the settings and see what happens
j/k
There are a lot of options, in the end though, it highly depends on your driving style, your preference and skill.
An FSTB, a RSB, springs and shocks or a coilover setup are the basics with adjustability for tweaking. You can keep going with camber adjustments (stillen has a camber adjustment kit) tires, tire sizes, tire pressures, spacers for a wider track, etc. will all help. Since you're not taking the car to the track nor are you pushing the car to its limits according to some of your previous posts, you probably shouldn't spend too much money cause you probably will never use it. A spring/shock setup is cheaper and works well. I've heard a lot of good stuff with the KYB AGX (adjustable) on the 4th gen. I haven't purchased them yet because I have a 5th gen and I didn't want to shave the 2mm off the top mounts in the front to get them to fit . I therefore went with the H&R springs due to the fact that they don't lower the car too much so that my stock shocks don't bust right away. I know MaxRPM got the JIC coilovers (for like 3000 or something) and he loves them. That's expensive though. He takes his car to the track so it's more warranted than for just street driving.
There's no exact way of doing it. Just whatever fits the driver's needs and driving style. Maybe Norm has better advice

 

Yes, however, you can soon or maybe even now, get Tein coilovers for around $1K and Cattman is working on Progress for coilovers around the same price. WE ARE GOING TO ACTUALLY HAVE A CHOICE SOON. Plus, you can get JICs for around $1600.

Although, I may not use the coilovers to their abilities, the shock/strut and spring combo is not good enough. First, NONE of them lower enough in the front and the drop is uneven. Second, if you drop enough you will need camber adjustments. If this requires camber plates, your looking at around $300, otherwise camber bolts are $25(these may make the difference for me!).

So, MY choices for a 1.8"-2.2"(I'd like up to a 2.5") FRONT drop are:
1)$450 on Cattman modified AGX + $150-$200 Springs + $300 Camber Plates = $900-$950 with an uneven drop. Plus, the AGXs will die prematurely and it requires modifying the strut mount(eventually I'll need new ones, which is more $$$$). Rears are adjustable.

2)$500 on Koni inserts + $150-$200 Springs + $300 Camber Plates = $900-$1000 with an uneven drop. Plus, the OEM needs to be cut to fit the inserts(eventually I'll need new ones, unless I have a donor set, which is more $$$$)) and the strut mounts need modifying(eventually I'll need new ones, which is more $$$$), but they will last longer than the AGXs. However, the rears are NOT adustable withOUT removing them.

3)$900-$1100 for TEIN SS coilover.

4)$1000-$1200 for Progress coiover by Cattman.

5)$1600-$1750 for JIC FLT-A2s.


So, all in all, until the AGXs or Tokico Illuminas are out for the 5th gen, I'd say coilovers are my BEST choice.

 

I'd add to that list a degree of sensitivity to what the car does and some understanding of theory. And lots of miles.

There is no single setup that is optimal for street, auto-x, on-track lapping, and wheel to wheel road course racing. Maybe it's best to first define the speed range that you're most interested in. What would work best for auto-x and actual cornering speeds under 40 - 50 mph would most likely be too "loose" at the higher speeds mentioned in the original post.

Not much else to add at this point, except to mention that lowering springs on a McPherson strut suspension cause the roll center to drop faster than the chassis does. Meaning you get MORE roll for a given wheel rate rather than less, and probably a more sharply inclined roll axis (I'm not sure how the Satchell link roll center behaves under suspension movement). Crudely, it's the stiffer rate than OE that most lowering springs have that reduces the roll (an equally stiffer than OE spring that leaves the car at OE ride height would reduce the roll by a slightly greater amount).

Norm

20AE 5-speed
’79 Malibu (too unstock for SCCA Street Mod)

 

Setup? Hmmmmn. Street for 50-120mph range. I do agressive driving, but not at the limit, with spirited mountain curves.

I pretty much understand what your saying about lowering springs, however my priorities inorder of preference:
1)Looks. I can't stand the front wheel gap.
2)Handling. I'd like to improve it if possible.
3)Ride comfort. I'd like to improve it if possible.


I'm not going to be able to replace the tires/rims until AT LEAST summer, so that's not an option, but definitely reasonably light 18x8s are in the future.

Tools: Tire pressure(FREE yay!), FSTB, OEM struts/shocks, OEM springs, Eibach or similar camber bolts, <$200 lowering springs, modified 4th gen. aftermarket struts/shocks IF NECESSARY, Motivational Engineering REAR perches, and <$1200 coilovers(TEIN or Progress, not GC).

Challenge: I want the BEST looks, handling, and ride that will last ~5yrs. Say I have less than $1300 limit on my CC. What would be your setup of choice?

 

FYI, the 4th and 5th gen have a 38mm RSB for stock. It sits inside the beam and is welded to the trailing arms.

A RSB is great for the stock suspension, but when you are lowered the benefits quickly diminish. I find that my Max has more control without the RSB while running springs/struts. I can feel the rear beam doing what it was designed to do. I also get a better ride because 15lbs of unsprung weight isn't strapped to the beam. Just my opinion.



Dave

 

two big s at the track...

#1 can get you rear-ended by unsuspecting tail-gaters...they think you don't have to brake for the turn, follow you closely and boom! ur stupid! not to mention, 'oh, there goes your car straight into dirt!'

 

Yes, I think we are all aware of that
That's what the post was about (well, not how to race on a track, more of what not to do unless you purposely WANT oversteer which isn't something one usually wants unless they're in a open, flat, empty parking lot and want to safely practice the limit of their car).

 

Hmmmmn....

So why does the addition of another RSB help?

If the stock one is not flexing, that is.

 

Like most manufacturers, Nissan designed the car so that it would tend to understeer in a corner. So if you take the turn too fast you can bring it back under control by decelerating. You can't do that in an oversteer condition. I find that with the RSB the car tends to now oversteer slightly, but it does so predictably enough that I can keep out of trouble.

All suspensions flex. There is no way around that. It is a matter of finding the right balance between the front and the rear.

 

A good RSB will be more helpfull on cars with IRS. We already have solid beam.

I had Stillen RSB on 2000 SE and I felt some differences, but nothing major. Car still rolled in corners.

Now on 2002 SE I sold the RSB and installed H&Rs instead, and differences between my 2000 SE with RSB and 2002 SE now with H&Rs is like night and day. My 2002 Max handles so much better.

I seriously think RSB is waste of money.
When I installed on my 2000 SE and took it for a drive I thought that I felt some differences. Right before I sold my car I took it off and drove without RSB for a week and I couldn't notice any differences in taking corners.

Also, didn't Stillen tested there project Maxima with RSB and they said skid pad numbers went down with it on the car.

 

I'm not sure why yours didn't help....bad install maybe? Do you have any pics of when you installed yours? How far back were the brackets located and where did the bar sit compared to the rear beam?

Mine is night and day difference, no question. However, I'm talking about pushing 75-85mph through 55mph corners(the speed limit should be 65, but it's a slight downhill grade and commonly used by semi trucks). Around town, I don't notice anything, just maybe a slighty louder "thud" as the rear goes over a bump. That may just be because I'm listening more now though.

Maybe you more of a wuss than I? Or smart enough to follow the speed limit.

 

Honestly, you wont feel the RSB that much if you are already lowered on the streets. You cannot come close to the true limits on the streets. On the track, where your tires are warmed and you can safely push your car is where the RSB is really noticeable. It makes the car feel almost neutral. Next spring when I head back to the track I am going to do some tests with RSB settings. I didnt have tools with me last time, so I couldnt adjust my Addco. I am going to try to adjust it to make my car even more neutral. Also, I will be running some performance tires, which will reduce the understeer I experienced with the KWDS's I ran.

 

That's the reason why I did the RSB first. So, I'd know what difference it made.

The lowering is primarily for looks, but it will also reduce body roll. Once I go with lowering springs I'll take off the RSB and drive it for awhile to see what difference it makes.

 

I've read alot about how the RSB makes the Max feel faster/more stable, but has anyone tested slalom and skidpad before and after the install?

Ron