Steve,

Check my Dyno numbers here: http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showt...threadid=94675

Do you still think a 190HP Stick maxi can pull on me? How about the new 255HP Stick or Auto (or is it 240 HP!!!)?

Not to flame anyone... but since you love the dyno graphs... Have you looked into using CarTest2000?

BTW, you neglect the facts:
1) CLS has a redline of 6900 and cutoff at 7100 rpm.
2) You do not inlcude gearing in your dynos comparos (HP/Weight), you know in racing and after 1-2 shift you only drop from Red line to some 4500 rpms after each shift.. so, only the area under the 4500-7100rpms counts! And this where the CLS outperform your maxima!

Thanks!

 

Steve and I both own cartest. I believe Steve said that a 190hp maxima would stay with or probably beat a CLS to 70-80mph. After that the CLS clearly has the advantage and will pass it.

 

According to cartest the stock 4th gen will beat a stock CLS all the way to 120mph, after that the CLS takes over.

 

You're heavily modded so I don't know what you're trying to prove. A stock 95-99 Maxima 5spd can and will pull on a stock CL-S 5AT to about 80. After that it's over for the Maxima and the Acura's race to win.


Nice numbers, BTW

Got it. I've actually discovered a few bugs in it which I've contacted Pat Glenn about. A new version should be out soon...

Yeah I know that. CarTest2000 takes that into account, but the graphs don't. I'm aware of that. The charts show that the Maxima can and will pull on the CL-S, which is what I was trying to illustrate.

The gearing in a 5spd Maxima is much more aggressive than the 5AT gearing in your Acura. Advantage goes to the Maxima here. CarTest accounts for that, but the charts assume equal gearing. I have a spreadsheet from Shawn Church with much more advanced spredsheet calculations, but I like to keep things simple. This is afterall, just a hobby. Shawn does that stuff for a living, but his would show the same thing

Sorry, but that's not accurate. When you're at a DEAD STOP, are the revs at 4500rpm? I don't think so. Even then, the Maxima can still pull (assuming equal gearing) until about 5500rpm. But the gearing is not equal - it's more aggressive in the Maxima.

The only time a stock CL-S's revs are up top long enough to make a difference is in 3rd gear (above 80). That's when a CL-S will walk the Max. Before that though, the Max is showing you its tail lights. The same story is repeated for pretty much every Honda VTEC. Preludes don't get going until 3rd gear either.

Yes, ultimately a CL-S will outrun a 190HP Maxima. They're even at the 1/4 mile line and the CL-S is pulling beyond that (faster trap for the CL-S). I'm not saying a Maxima will beat a CL-S outright. All I'm saying is that it can pull on it. It all depends on how and where you race.


A stock 190HP Maxima manual can pull on a 260HP CL-S auto up to about 80 mph.


Street tested.
Dyno confirmed.
CarTest2000 confirmed.

 

PS, hopefully we can keep this thread strictly TECHNICAL and make an interesting discussion out of it.

 

Strictly Technical, can you post an acceleration run sim from Cartest2000 using my dyno and a dyno of NA maxima of your choice.

My CLS weighted (with driver) 3626 lbs.

Thanks.

 

I'll use my model of the CL-S, it's not using your dyno #s its using 237whp and 202wtq, race weight of 3640lbs. The maxima is using Requin6's 4th gen dyno with MEVI, ECU, Intake and UDP, stock exhaust. 194whp and 192tq, race weight of 3060lbs.


Time to speed
0-60
CLS 5.88
Max 5.36

0-100
CLS 14.62
Max 13.73

0-110
CLS 18.71
Max 17.64

0-120
CLS 24.96
Max 21.98

0-130
CLS 32.43
Max 27.98

0-140
CLS 41.72
Max 40.82

0-150
CLS 54.30
Max 107.78


Top Speed
CLS 162mph
Max 150mph


Time to Distance

60'
CLS 2.24 @ 31.63mph
Max 2.20 @ 34.69mph

330'
CLS 6.15 @ 62.05mph
Max 5.92 @ 64.22mph

660'
CLS 9.33 @ 77.35mph
Max 9.03 @ 79.74mph

1320' (1/4 Mile)
CLS 14.43 @ 100.02mph
Max 13.97 @ 101.49mph

2640' (1/2 mile)
CLS 22.65 @ 116.53mph
Max 22.09 @ 120.22mph

5280' (1 mile)
CLS 36.90 @ 135.16mph
Max 35.88 @ 137.77mph

7920' (1.5 mile)
CLS 49.64 @ 146.63mph
Max 48.67 @ 143.90mph

 

The 99 maxima has a curb weight of 3014 lbs.
The 01 CLS has a curb weight of 3510 lbs.

Assuming a driver weight of 175lbs and reduction of 75lbs of no spare tire, 1/4 tank gas, full interior, racing weight would be close to 3114 lbs for the Maxima and 3610 lbs for the CLS.

In addition, any reason for not using my dyno?

Thanks again for your posts.

 

hehe...Neal seems to have a lot more time to fiddle in CarTest than I do.

The dyno he used for a CL-S was higher than yours though: 236 whp vs your 216-226 whp (SAE corrected)

If Neal doesn't get to your actual dyno, I'm sure one of us will. It's a great program for $40, though

 

I have not so good news for you... I got a copy of drag racing analyzer:
http://www.performancetrends.com/Dra...20Analyzer.htm

My complete analysis of my CLS is shown here (14.46s @ 96.2 MPH):



My primarily analysis of Maxima 5-speed with 195 lbft@ 4500rpm, 192 HP @6900 rpm, 3124 lbs, showed that the Maxima is still slower , 14.6 @ 93 MPH.

To be fair, I need to get exact drag coefficient, frontal area, and correct tires dimensions for the maxima. In the comapro, I used the same values for those parameters as the CLS.

I will post again more accurate runs for the maxima.

 

I think the point here is you just dont wanna admit that you paid allot more for you luxury honda vehicle and that a maxima can pull on it. I ran a 15.26 in the 1/4 mile my very first time to the track in my 99, I weigh in at 235 and had full interior spare everything. I can almost bet you that with more practice at the track I can keep pace if not out step you. 99 5spd

 

I am not complaining about how much I paid for my CLS. It is already paid in full, so is my Home Family T. Sienna.

Anyways, The dyno numbers I used were dyno numbers for both moded CLS and Maxima. The Maxima had 500 lb less weight advantage and 0.85 loss drivetrain instead 0.77 for the CLS. And still CLS is faster.

Auto for Auto, 2003 Maxima vs 2001 CLS-5AT ... still the CLS is faster.

But anyways, if there is no CLS... you would find me driving in a maxima

 

That sounds about right for your CL-S with those mods.

See, this is why I don't just throw up stuff like this and jump to conclusions like you did here (in your post after this one). Obviously your model for the Maxima in that program is way the heck off because a STOCK Maxima can trap at 93 mph almost!

Whenever creating a model for a car with or without mods, I always like to check first to see what the actual owners (and even magazines) are able to run with them, to ensure the accuracy of the model. If you're not checking your model against anything, you have no idea if it's accurate or not.


When I plug in the same specs into CarTest2000 (using CarTest extrapolated curves) I get a 14.22 @ 98 mph with a 2.24 60' I would trust Nealoc187's model more though, because he's actually using the full dyno chart whereas I just did it quick and dirty.

14.22 @ 98 > 14.46 @ 96.2


Best stock 2003 Maxima auto time: 14.6
Best stock 2001 CLS-5AT time: 14.6

I'd say that makes them pretty equal


But look at the trap speeds:

2003 Maxima auto: 92-93 mph (typical)
2001 CLS-5AT: 94 mph (typical) correct me if I'm wrong.


The Maxima can run the same times as the Acura, but with a slower trap speed. Take a moment and think about what this means. If two cars cross the line at the same time but one is going 2 mph faster than the other, then what does this mean immediately before the line, and what does it mean immediately after?



















It means that before the line the Maxima was in front of the Acura and at some point in the race it had PULLED on the Acura. Obviously if it was in front it would have HAD to have pulled on the Acura at some point to get there in the first place.

It also means that at the point of crossing the line, the Acura is now PULLING on the Maxima and about to show it its tail lights, thanks to the higher trap speed.



Do you agree or disagree with this? If you disagree, please explain why.



The Maxima is faster off the line up to about 60-70 mph.
The Acura is faster once again from 70-110 (better 3rd gear)
The Maxima is faster from 110+ (CL-S overly tall 4th gear)


Neither car is faster than the other overall. Each has their own advantages and disadvantages and it all depends on where you race from.

 

Not drag senseless disscusions.. Why this 1999 SE Manual Owner could not brake below 15s in good weather low Humdity, low temp, and Ho pressure (>30") and he had mods too?

I will also try to perfect the maxima model.

If you can help me finiding the tire/wheel weight, drag coef., frontal area (or the hieght and width) , track width, wheelbase that would be great!

Thanks.

http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....hreadid=191728

 

Now you're breaking away from scientific models based on dyno charts to individual instances which introduces about a zillion more variables? Why?


When a stock CL-S goes to the track, are they able to break into the 14's EVERY single time? Even with mods, do they break into the 14's all the time as well? Nope.


For all we know his track could have been slow in general or just that day, or there could be something wrong with his car. Or mayb he wasn't driving the car well. Maybe he wasnt' shifting at the right points. Maybe his shifts were slow. Maybe he was bogging off the line. Maybe there was something wrong with his car.


The theoretical models that you have with programs like the Drag Racing Analyzer and CarTest2000 ensure that all of these factors are equalized and taken out of the equation. You simply cannot make a valid argument that the CL-S is faster just because one guy with one particular car at one particular track on one particular day could not get his car into the 14's when he probably should have been able to.

On another particular day at another particular track with another particular car and another particular driver, Nealoc187 here got his Maxima to run 14.7 completely stock and is now running 13's all-motor, from a car with an engine that only makes 190HP in stock form.

 

Thanks for your last post, Please could you help on the Maxima specs?

 

Have at it: http://www.nissannews.com/nissan/199...ma/index.shtml

Once you get your baseline model working at about 15.2 @ 92 or so you're in good shape to start working from there.

 

With all the Maxiam specs at hand:

Weather conditions: T:50 Dew P: 20.2 AP: 30.45

My CLS:
Tue Feb 25 03 11:41 pm
Time Slip For: 2001 Acura CLS Import moded

RT .500
60 ft 2.31
330 ft 6.15
1/8 ET 9.32
1/8 MPH 78.0
1000 ft 12.10
1/4 ET 14.44
1/4 MPH 96.30


Maxima 3.0 5-Speed Mnual (Stock, assuming 15% drivetrain loss):
Tue Feb 25 03 11:45 pm
Time Slip For: 1999 Nissan Maxima Import Stock

RT .500
60 ft 2.35
330 ft 6.46
1/8 ET 9.88
1/8 MPH 71.7
1000 ft 12.86
1/4 ET 15.37
1/4 MPH 89.80


Maxima 3.0 5-Speed Mnual (Moded, 229 lbft@ 4500rpm, 226 HP @6500 rpm, again 15% loss):

Tue Feb 25 03 11:59 pm
Time Slip For: 1999 Nissan Maxima Import moded

RT .500
60 ft 2.22
330 ft 6.13
1/8 ET 9.40
1/8 MPH 75.8
1000 ft 12.22
1/4 ET 14.59
1/4 MPH 94.95

 

I used the base weight of a 96 GXE, which is listed at 2880lbs.

The reason I didn't use your dyno is because the dyno I have been using for the CL-S is actually a little more powerful than yours, and there's was no sense in making a 7 hp and 1ft lb change which would not alter the results in any appreciable way.

As for the program you're using, it seems a little more off. A CL-S running 14.4 should be trapping more like 99mph should it not? As far as the max numbers I don't have a clue what's going on with them, since 93mph is a stock maxima trap speed, certainly not one with as much power as Requin6's dyno. My best trap when I was stock was 93.18, this was in Chicago, temp was 80*, humidity was 77%. This was with removal of spare and jack only, at 111K miles. A typical 5spd runs 15.2 @ 92, a well driven one will run in the 14s at the same trap speed of course. For reference, when I was running just Y-pipe I ran 14.46 @ 96.48, and with intake and Y pipe I ran 14.41 @ 96.7, albeit at a slower track. With intake and Y pipe I put down 182whp @ 5500rpm and 189wtq @ 4500rpm. In my current state I've trapped 98.38mph, averaging about 97.9, with 184whp @ 6000 and 172ft lb @ 4500. My new intake manifold dropped alot of torque. Requin 6's dyno is using a JWT ECU with 7000RPM rev limiter (rather than the stock 6500), he's got the same mods as me, plus UDP and the ECU. The ECU brings the midrange torque back considerably, as well as raising peak #s.

 

My best runs where on 18" rims 235/40/18 (Nittos). Total Tire/wheel Weight is 47 lbs. I used the same tire/wheel setup in the simulation run.

Also, my best run was in 40F weather, Partly Cloudy, was 14.61 @ 95.81 MPH.

Therefore, it seems that this simulator is very accurate. At that time, I had only 18" rims, nittos and, Iridium spark plugs, and CAI.

That is it. Now, I added headers and UR SS Undervie Pulley kit. So, my times now should a bit better.

Finally, I used the maxima SE stock setup for the dimesions, weight, tire/wheel setup, etc.

 

Perhaps for your CL-S, but your Maxima model needs a little more work.

15.37 @ 89 is quite slow. The standard "mag time" is 15.2 @ 92, and there are people here that have gone to the track, never having driven stick before, and have gotten 15.0 @ 92. Skilled drivers that are willing to push the cars more can get into the 14's stock.

CarTest can calculate accleration curves directly from dyno numbers and not have to translate back to crank numbers. This adds an additional variable and uncertainty. Also check the shift times for your Maxima model. I have mine set to 0.3s in CarTest which about as fast as you could reasonbly expect to shift. Slower shift times will have a significant effect on the trap speed, and the ET as well to a lesser extent.

 

For Shift times, I used 0.4s for the Maxima. For the CLS I used 0.8s. For my CLS, I used my dyno. For the Maxima, I used the Max TQ and Max Hp Values.

I can use 0.2s for manual shifts, but that this is not typical of the usual street driver.

I can use a dyno for the Maxima. Which one I should use? Could you reply with a URL link to a Stock/moded Maxima Dyno?

Thanks.

 

Stock 4G Maxima Dyno
Requin6's Modded Dyno (from Neal's analysis above)

 

First, I noted the modded Maxima dyno above is "faked" or screwed up. The torque scale seems BS!.. However, I used the HP numbers and dropped the TQ scale as bogus.

With all the Maxiam specs at hand, and using the Dyno Supplied Above for the Maximas:

Weather conditions: Tpem:50F Dew P: 20.2 A.Pressure: 30.45

My CLS:
Tue Feb 25 03 11:41 pm
Time Slip For: 2001 Acura CLS Import moded

RT .500
60 ft 2.31
330 ft 6.15
1/8 ET 9.32
1/8 MPH 78.0
1000 ft 12.10
1/4 ET 14.44
1/4 MPH 96.30


Maxima 3.0 5-Speed Mnual (Stock, using the stock dyno above, shifting at 6100rpms):
Thu Feb 27 03 2:26 am
Time Slip For: 1999 Nissan Maxima Import Stock

RT .500
60 ft 2.32
330 ft 6.49
1/8 ET 9.97
1/8 MPH 71.1
1000 ft 12.97
1/4 ET 15.50
1/4 MPH 89.00

Maxima 3.0 5-Speed Mnual (Moded, using SAE HP numbers from the above dyno, shifting at 6900rpms):

Thu Feb 27 03 2:57 am
Time Slip For: 1999 Nissan Maxima Import moded

RT .500
60 ft 2.22
330 ft 6.06
1/8 ET 9.26
1/8 MPH 77.10
1000 ft 12.04
1/4 ET 14.37
1/4 MPH 96.51


Now this is not that bad for a maxima, neck-to-neck to my CLS.

 

Especially considering that the Maxima was being produced by Nissan way back in 1995

Face it, the CLS has a great great motor that's pushing a bit too much weight around, that's all. The latest 2004 Maxima, which is way bigger than any Maxima ever was, and is quite a bit bigger than a CLS, still weighs about 100 pounds less than a CLS. Ain't that somethin'?

DW

 

Can we say lighter by 100lbs cause the interior of the new maxima "cost less" than that in CLS?

 

I'd say about a car or two ahead and pulling at the line for the Maxima.

Because your baseline model is still 0.3s and 3mph slow off of the 15.2 @ 92 baseline. I was able to replicate your 15.5 @ 89 with a 15.44 @ 89 in CarTest2000 by reverting back to the "granny" 0.7s shift times (0.5s shift, 0.2s engage). Setting to a more aggressive (and realistic for the track) 0.3s time (0.2s shift, 0.1s engage) gets you the 15.1-15.2 @ 92 times.

For comparison, the default shift time in CarTest2000 for an automatic is 0.4s (0.3s shift, 0.1s engage). I *know* that I can shift faster than an automatic so I think 0.3s total (including engagement) is pretty reasonable.

Since I'm not familiar with this drag analyzer program, I'm not sure what assumptions it makes about the shift times, and if engagement time is included or not. That would require digging into the documentation a bit.

All I know is that your times are still slow for the Maxima

 

Modded CLS with 0.2s Race mode (TOTAL shifting time, 0.1s shift, 0.1s engage) instead of 0.4s: Note no difference than 0.2s.

Thu Feb 27 03 10:11 am
Time Slip For: 2001 Acura CLS Import moded

RT .500
60 ft 2.31
330 ft 6.15
1/8 ET 9.32
1/8 MPH 78.1
1000 ft 12.09
1/4 ET 14.44
1/4 MPH 96.34

Modded Maxima with 0.2s (TOTAL shifting time, 0.1s shift, 0.1s engage) instead of 0.4s:

Thu Feb 27 03 10:07 am
Time Slip For: 1999 Nissan Maxima Import Stock

RT .500
60 ft 2.32
330 ft 6.40
1/8 ET 9.83
1/8 MPH 72.4
1000 ft 12.79
1/4 ET 15.30
1/4 MPH 89.65

Modded Maxima with 0.2s (TOTAL shifting time) instead of 0.4s:

Thu Feb 27 03 10:04 am
Time Slip For: 1999 Nissan Maxima Import moded

RT .500
60 ft 2.22
330 ft 5.98
1/8 ET 9.13
1/8 MPH 78.5
1000 ft 11.87
1/4 ET 14.18
1/4 MPH 97.38

 

Hmmmm....


Wait, did you say you were having it shift at 6100rpm for stock?

If so, try this...

1-2: 6600
2-3: 6300
3-4: 6100 (or hold 3rd across the line)

 

The stock dyno ends at 6200 rpms

 

The program doesn't have extrapolation algorithms?

 

extrapolating would lead to slower numbers!!! Clearly the torque curve is dropping real fast after 6000 rpms... HP is dropping too!

 

Just because the HP curve is dropping after 6k doesn't mean it's time to shift yet.

 

Stock shift points for a 4th gen are redline, 6300, 6100. Nealoc tested, Nealoc approved

 

could you provide dyno numbers above 6200 rpms?. I will rerun the simulation again with the above shifting points.

 

Here is a STOCK one:

http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?threadid=174001

 

The above STOCK dyno is clear a SRTONG dyno for a "ringer".

Anyways as you can see using the STOCK dyno and the the shifting points 6400, 6300, 6100:
ri Feb 28 03 11:46 am
Time Slip For: 1999 Nissan Maxima Import Stock "ringer"

RT .500
60 ft 2.22
330 ft
1/8 ET 9.53
1/8 MPH 74.2
1000 ft 12.41
1/4 ET 14.84
1/4 MPH 91.61




Now let us see, shifiting all gear at 6400 rpms:

Fri Feb 28 03 11:52 am
Time Slip For: 1999 Nissan Maxima Import Stock "ringer"

RT .500
60 ft 2.22
330 ft
1/8 ET 9.53
1/8 MPH 74.1
1000 ft 12.40
1/4 ET 14.83
1/4 MPH 92.60

Now that is really, excellent!

 

That's the FIRST and only STOCK dyno I could find in the Dyno Slips discussion area. All the rest have mods. If you use the SEARCH feature you can find more. I just figured you would use Steves' original STOCK dyno and "extrapolate" the slope of the curve since it stops at 6200rpms. Using the above example dyno, you can reasonably estimate by the slope of the curve where the 6200-6400rpms points would fall on the 6200rpm max dyno.

Why do you consider that a ringer? SAE exaggerated maybe? I've seen better dynos.

 

Using 15% loss... dividing by 0.85... you get a max 217 lbft of Torque and 205.64 HP That is at least 10 lbft and 10 HP more than stock.

 

Oops, you're right. It must have been the SAE correction skewing(read screwing) the dyno.

I'll have to search for others.