I Own Unfortuantely A 2000 Automatic..and I Am Looking To Get Either A Turbo Or Supercharger...with The Stock Tranny....which Will Be Better For The Car....

Or Should I Get A Vb Mod...and Can It Handle The Power.....

 

Which is worse? They're both horrible - STAY AWAY!!!!!!!!! My supercharger went crazy one day and ran off with my TB - rumour has it that they're married now and are on their 3rd kid.


........ anyways, yes get a VB mod, as far as which is better, you should research the question yourself and come up with your own answer - there's a TON of threads to be read in here and there are pros and cons to each setup - it is a matter of personal opinion and what you need. It's like asking what colour is better for you - white or black - YOU decide.


Good luck.

PS. black

 

Turbo = less power down low, but more power up top.
Turbo = free power once turbo begins to spool up.
Turbo = Take more time to build peak boost
Turbo = generates excessive heat, so you have to allow a time period for cool down before shutting down the vehicle.



Supercharger = more power down low, but less power up top.
Supercharger = Belt driven so it takes power to make power.
Supercharger = Instant power the second the gas pedal is touched.
Supercharger = no real cool down period required.

Seeing that you are an automatic you would probably benifit more from a supercharger due too automatic's having more low end lag then a 6spd. And since your vehicle comes stock with a variable intake manifold already then you probably wouldn't need much more help in the top end department. Also a supercharger would probably be alittle more refined & trouble free for your application. Just keep in mind that boosted engines tend to have a lower life span then a normally asperated engine would. Considering the reliabilty factor of Nissan engines you will more then likely own a newer vehicle long before you ever run into damaged engine internals as long as you keep the boost levels confined to a resonable level & don't attempt to push the envelope! I hope that is what you were looking for. Hopefully some others will pass on more advise to help you make your decision.

 

^ on crack while posting.
SC has no power down low as it's rpm dependent from what I read. Unless you go with a custom ROOTS blower, you'll have minimal gains in the lower rpms. Also it doesn't reach full boost til redline. With a TC you can be full boost as low as 2k rpms depending on what size turbo you get. Most guys here seem to have full boost at 3k-3.5k rpms. I'd get a TC and run maybe 6-8 psi, tune it well, and it should be safe.

 

all wrong answers. The type of turbo will determine where you will get your HP/tq. Smaller AR=faster spool up down low bigger AR=midrange to top end spool up. Theres more to this. Now the SCer. Its belt driven. The further out you take your RPMS the more boost you will get. Pulley will also determine how much boost you get etc...This is such a short answer, your going to have to do more research.

 

Turbo + automatic = boost off the line. If your tranny can hold the power, an automatic makes great use of a turbocharged engine's powerband. The fact that you stay in boost between shifts and can load the engine at a stop all make for a faster car. It loses slightly on the dyno but I got Shadow's auto '97 to pull 300whp at only 7psi w/ good tuning. The car's made 30+ dyno runs, 8 runs at the track turbocharged and another 7-8 track runs w/ it's old SC. It was supercharged for about 25k prior to the turbo. The tranny is stock w/ VB mod, auxillary cooler and 100k+ and it's showing no signs of slipping yet. He also has a custom LSD which should speed tranny failure but it's held on strong. He even bought a spare tranny 40k ago b/c everyone told him it'd break right away under boost.

A turbo automatic Maxima isn't for everyone. Since the car selects its own gear, if you step on it from a roll, it'll dump two gears and run to redline pulling like a freight train b/c the tranny computer can't account for that kind of torque. Upgrading the tranny to hold a gear would probably be the best option there. Overall, if you don't rag on the car pulling drag launches every day the auto tranny isn't that bad for a turbo system. The biggest concern is clearance though as the auto tranny is much larger than the 5spd resulting in significantly reduced ground clearance w/ the the tubro on Shadow's car(but his bodykit hits first anyway).

The SC gives you good top end power as it reaches peak boost at redline. W/ the auto it becomes less beneficial since you tend to spend more time at lower rpm levels. At the same time, it's less stressful on the engine and tranny since you don't make 250ft-lb of torque at 3500rpm. The SC also tends to be a simpler solution as the base kit is very bolt on and user friendly. Most SC failures are belt problems which leave you stranded while a turbo mishap can very easily result in a blown engine. If you want a simple solution that isn't too hard on the car, a SC is generally easier to implement. If you want to go for all out power, it's hard to beat a turbo's tuning ability and capacity for higher power.

 

Can someone Slap Him!!!!

 

If i was you I would supercharge and if not enoguh I would add some wet N20 right now Im on that track getting a tranny swap next weekend, if all goes well.

 

Wouldn't you want a dry kit if you were boosted?

 

Big D,
It all depends on what pulley you are running. Let's say a SC can spin a maximum of 20k RPM's. Anything over that would damage the SC. Know lets say you have the smallest pulley available installed on the SC. I'm not sure what the pulley ratio's are, but in theory if you can max out the SC's capibilties long before your engine ever hit's redline. Let's just say that the SC is spinning as fast as it can (20k RPM's) while the engine is only at 4k rpm's. See where i'm going with this. the same idea works for a turbo, but it depends on the size of the turbo & exhaust pressure.

JAY25,
How are those all wrong answers. Are you telling me that a SC doesn't rob power to make power? If that's the case then Altinators, AC, power steering wouldn't effect performance? Oh wait, maybe it was the part where I said turbo's generate excessive heat. If that was the case then why do most turbo system exhaust manifolds start glowing red hot after a while. No no I got it, it was the part where I said told the gentleman to keep the PSI at a resonable level to avoid internal engine damage right?

Mishap,
Unless your turbo is the size of a peanut, and reaches boost at 1,200 RPM you wouldn't be leaving the line in an automatic with boost on the gauge. The only way ofcourse would be if you had an aftermarket stall convertor to allow you to leave the line at a higher stall speed (RPM).

 

I thought so.

 

SLAP. Dude you're wrong and a cocky punk at that. Like I said, the vortech SC we have available doesn't reach full boost til redline. You have maybe 2psi at 2krpm, 4psi at 4krpm, see what I'm getting at? How the **** are you going to argue with Jay? He's had 2 SC and a TC from what I read. If anyone knows which one is better/worse, he's that person.

 

Big D,
It's ok you can stop ridin on Jay's coat tail now. I have been to his cardomain site & have seen his work. He deffinitly knows what he's doing. But that's not to say he has infinite knowledge. I'm sure he learns something new everyday. Besides my father is a Marine & I have mad respect for anyone who'd help defend our contry. Unlike little punks who feel the need to diss someone who post about getting beat by a S500 Mercedes. Atleast that person had the ball$ to attempt to see how he would stand up against the Mecedes. You obviously don't, you are the type of person who feels that if he loses a race it's all over! Your little heart is to broken to go on in life instead of getting back up & trying harder. So read my first post & tell me how what I stated was completely wrong. Until you can fathum the concept stick to answering questions like "What bulb's fit in my headlights" & some of the more similar idems like that. Nobody on the org. here likes you anyway, all you do is post rude & disrespectful remarks. I'm not here to cause problems, only to help if I can. So until Jay responds to my second post keep your mouth shut. I never said Jay was wrong, only to explain how my insight is incorrect. Obviously you have no idea whats going on here so move along to reading the stickies cause thats what you need to do first before you decide to post about a topic that is unfamiliar to you!

 

Um, a Vortech is a centrifugal SC. Unless you're talking about roots type, you're not making much boost the second you step on the gas. W/ the Stillen Vortech setup, you only make peak boost at redline which is terrible for a torque convertor car since you'll rarely see that range if you let the computer pick your gear. The Vortech V2 can handle a maximum impeller speed of 53,000rpm meaning it has to be geared 8.15:1 not to exceed its operating range on the Maxima. Guys are already experiencing belt slippage on pulleys under 2.87" which is something like 11-12psi at redline. Much smaller and you risk overspinning the SC and needing things like a cogged pulleys to combat the slippage losses. There's really no way to shift the Vortech's powerband further down in the midrange w/o seriously modifying its design. Once again only positive displacement SC(read roots type which doesn't exist as a kit for the Maxima) will boost immediately and provide more low end than a turbo system. To get a centrifugal to boost on the low end would result in such massive frictional losses that the engine probably wouldn't idle. On the other end a turbo sized too small that will boost off idle will choke off the top end of a car but is less likely to overspin and blow up since there's no gear drive involved and many turbos can spin past 100,000 rpm w/o damage.

I did oversimplify boosting on an auto. You are able to spool a turbo by brake throttling the car to the limits of the brake system. The load on the engine spools the turbo up so you essentially are able to boost off the line. Running the stock TC w/ regular stall on Shadow's car we can rev up to 3500rpm when the torque starts overpowering the brakes. The engine is making well over 200ft-lb by that point which is more than a N/A car is capable of and more than any centrifugal SC. The car also makes a peak torque of 312.4ft-lbs ~4700rpm to the wheels through a stock auto @7psi. This is all on a turbo that has one of the largest compressors tried on a Maxima. Try to pull #'s like that on an SC w/o hitting 15psi.

I've built two custom turbo Maximas...both capable of putting more torque in mid-rpm ranges than SC's pushing nearly twice the peak boost levels. One of them, Shadow's car was supercharged for over 20,000 miles and it never had the powerband it has now when it ran a 3.33 pulley SC.

The turbo does generate a lot of heat. It's nothing proper coatings and heat shields can't take care of. Proper care is required of any modded car and all turbo cars require more maintenance and due diligence to make sure they are running safely.

Your knowledge of turbocharged vs. SC Maximas borders on complete ignorance. Most of the guys here that have turbo systems used to have Stillen SC kits and we all know its simplicity/durability along with its limitations. If you think an SC is better suited for an auto for any other reason than its ease of install and maintenance then you're terribly mistaken. The only SC to ever make low end power on the Max was the roots type one org member had custom built. He never finished the project since the car was totalled prior to full tuning so we don't have the exact numbers on that.

 

I'm not too sure where you're going with the SC argument here. Why would you want a pully so small you max out the SC at 4,000 RPM? You would have to shift at 4,000 RPM because if you kept going you would overspin the blower.

It's not the same for a turbo, because boost is not just based on RPM. Once the turbo is spooled up to the desired boost level the wastegate will dump the extra air so it can stay there.

 

[QUOTE=nostrixoxide]Turbo = less power down low, but more power up top.
Turbo = free power once turbo begins to spool up.
Turbo = Take more time to build peak boost
Turbo = generates excessive heat, so you have to allow a time period for cool down before shutting down the vehicle.



Supercharger = more power down low, but less power up top.
Supercharger = Belt driven so it takes power to make power.
Supercharger = Instant power the second the gas pedal is touched.
Supercharger = no real cool down period required.

Fine ********,

Turbo has less power down low.
Wrong. Which car do you think has more power at 2krpm? 3krpm?4krpm?
Turbo takes more time to build peak boost.
Wrong. Most of the max turbos have peak boost at 3k-3.5k rpms. The SC has peak boost at redline. Last time I checked our redline was much higher than 3.5k rpms.

SC has more power down low.
Wrong. Like I said unless it's a custom Roots blower the SC doesn't have **** down low. Ask every SC owner or past owner here.
SC instant power.
Somewhat wrong. Instant small boost maybe but at the same time the turbo would've already had higher power numbers.
SC still gets hot as hell. You might not need a turbo timer but the oil inside the compressor housing is still hot.
Didn't read your last post cause it seems you know less than the people who eat out of my trash every week.

 

Mishap,
So what your telling me is that depending on the size of the supercharger pulley it is possible to generate full boost before redline has been achieved? I'm basing this off the fact that the supercharger has a maximum spool of 53K RPM's before damage can occur.
Also, I'm having a hard time beleiving that Shadows turbo car on street tires will not start to break loose before 3,500 RPM's. My naturally aspirated engine with 18" tires will start to break loose long before 3,500 RPM's is reached. Sound to me like the stock stall convertor is damaged & is slipping.
One last thing, I know that I am not the wisest when it comes to boosted applications but my statements are for all vehicles in general so saying that my knowledge borders on ignorance is down right immature. Especially coming from a guy who posts pictures of a Prelude on a Maxima forum!!!
"Sitting on friggin Konig's I might add"

 

Big D,
Have you ever heard of something called turbo lag. I have never heard one person ever say they had supercharger lag. With a SC peak boost doesn't have to occur strickly at redline. It depends on the pulley size (grasp the concept already).
As far which setup would make more power @ a certain RPM there is more that factors into that. What size pulley on the SC, how big is the turbo. Keep in mind if your turbo is super big, then you won't even start to build boost until higher RPM's (3k 4k). Everone here seems to forget that there is more then just 1 size of pulley or turbo. I'm not talking about this the stillen SC kit compared to some manufatured turbo kit. I'm talking about if you know how to tune a car or not. Obviously if you use the smallest turbo there is you will reach peak boost sooner, because it takes less effert to spool it. And vise versa if you use the largest pulley on a supercharger you probably will not achieve the SC boost potential. Get a F_cking clue already!!!!

 

Apparently it's not getting through to you. The only widely available SC for the Maxima, the Vortech V2 kit by Stillen can only reach peak boost at redline. If you geared it to reach peak boost at 4000rpm, it will destroy itself the first time you redline the car. By design, it reaches peak efficiency at the physical limits of its gear drive. Imagine the biggest laggiest turbocharger made that can only make peak boost at redline...then you have the Vortech SC. No pulley will make the Vortech reach peak boost any lower in the rpm range. It definitely seems you are mistaking a Vortech for a positive displacement roots SC. Those found on cars like the GTP's and AMG E55 which does build low end torque and offer instant boost. Of course those are much less efficient (lower adiabatic efficiency) and can't build top end boost.

Turbo lag exists...that's not an issue here since most Maximas make good power even before the turbo spools b/c of the high compression stock internals. At the same time, even the most ill advised turbo setup will reach peak boost before the Vortech will.

There's nothing wrong w/ Shadow's torque converter (301whp@7psi proves that). He has a custom built LSD that will let him hook up fine so we can do that at the track w/o sitting there smoking one tire.

As for my credentials...I've never owned a Maxima but I have been a part of this community as long as almost anyone still here. Shadow first visited this site at my referral and I was the guy that made his first intake when the Place Racine intake was too much money.
These are the two turbocharged Maximas I've built.
TheBigSadler's former car


Shadow's car

These are my credentials. Where are yours?

 

as hell. I never said that! what are you talking about. This is what was said and I am quoting it: Supercharger = more power down low, but less power up top.

Supercharger = Belt driven so it takes power to make power.
Supercharger = Instant power the second the gas pedal is touched.
Supercharger = no real cool down period required


watch this, these are two SCer dynos, one from a VOrtech V1 SCed cobra, show me top end loss on both of these dynos please? I am blind

SCed Cobra Dyno



SCed Maxima dyno



Do you see any loss on upper RPMS I dont. I wear reading glasses but thats what was said above. SCers great for top end=Horsepower

 

Turbo dyno at 9.7PSI



see the diffence in both? Torque is your friend. Compare RPM for RPM, and ask any other SCer owners how much boost are they running thru the engine? I am pushing 9.7PSI to get the above numbers thats it.

I was pushing 10PSI and got 321HP and 260lbs of torque.

 

JAY25,
How are those all wrong answers. Are you telling me that a SC doesn't rob power to make power? If that's the case then Altinators, AC, power steering wouldn't effect performance? Oh wait, maybe it was the part where I said turbo's generate excessive heat. If that was the case then why do most turbo system exhaust manifolds start glowing red hot after a while. No no I got it, it was the part where I said told the gentleman to keep the PSI at a resonable level to avoid internal engine damage right?


trust me dude, Jay knows what he is talking about, he didnt even say this, dont even question him, he has been boosted far longer than you and I have even been on the org conbinded

 

First off, Mishap drives a Prelude, but he's worked on more boosted Maximas than you ever have. Who do you think designed and built my turbo?

And Konigs? Give me a break, you really don't know ****. Look closely, the wheels are Volk AV3's. Old school and expensive, what wheel do you think Konig knocked off? I love all the new people modifying cars now. They do it for 6 months and think they know everything. When in fact, they know exactly squat except for what APC and NOPI push on them. Research things before you spout off about topics you don't know anything about. Read a book, ask someone who actually knows, or better yet, try it.

And no, a Vortech SC will never generate full boost before redline. It's impossible since the boost is RPM dependent. The faster the engine spins, the faster the pulley spins, the faster the blower spins, the more boost you get. PUt a small enough pulley on there, and you'll overspin the 53K limit on the blower before redline and risk damage. It's that simple.

And no, my car doesn't brake loose before 3500 rpms. You have to stand on the brakes, but it will launch from that rpm. My turbo definitely isn't the size of a peanut, it has a 4" inlet and flows 781 cfm, enough for over 600 hp.

And yes, there is such thing as SC lag with a centrifugal blower. I used to have a SC before I got the turbo. It's true that as soon as you step on the gas, the SC spins faster. But it's building negligible boost and you don't feel anything until you get over 4K rpms. So below that, the car feels practically stock. With a turbo, if it's too big, it takes some time to spool, but it's the same with the SC. If you size a turbo correctly, then there is very little lag. On Sadler's car, he hit full boost at 3K rpm. Try that with the SC. On my car, full boost is at 3500rpm under load because of the larger turbo. With the SC, I had about 2.5 psi at 3500 rpm. All your statements are based on a Roots type blower like factory Mercedes where near full boost is available off the line.

And yes, your statements border on downright ignorance for any vehicle. You generalized SC and turbo setups without even discussing the different types of SC's or turbos. Your statement held true for Roots type SC's, and that was it. It's not even the type of blower a Maxima uses, so to question Mishap's knowledge of Maximas is laughable.

Do you even know why a turbo has to cool down? It's not for the sake of the engine, it's to protect the turbo. Because there is oil in there, if you shut down the car hot, the oil stays in there and cokes up the turbo. It doesn't have much to do with heat in the rest of the engine. Turbo manifolds glow hot, but so do factory manifolds if you run them hard enough. Get an EGT gauge, and you'll see that the exhaust temps on a turbo car aren't signifantly higher. The exhaust temp is based on cylinder combustion and A/F ratios. The engine bay of a turbo car is just hotter because you have a huge iron turbine in there that is retaining more heat. The engine doesn't actually run that much hotter. BTW, it's a pretty good idea to let a SC car cool down too. You're still running oil through the blower and stressing the engine more just like a turbo. It's just not as necessary since the oil isn't running next to exhaust gases like in a turbo. And conversely, if you have a water cooled turbo, it's not as necessary to cool it down. Still a good idea though.

And what do you know about turbo sizing? All you seem to know is that smaller turbos make peak power sooner and larger later. But do you know why? Or how? Did you know that turbos sap power too if you pick the wrong size? It's not free power like you think. It takes exhaust energy to spin the turbine, and you pick a turbine too small, you will cause backpressure and waste power. Just like the SC. So you were wrong on 7/8 counts basically, for any car, not just the Maxima.

You make fun of Big D, but maybe you're the one who needs to stick to changing light bulbs. I'm not trying to be mean, but this is the kind of misinformation that hurts the .org. If you weren't corrected, someone might actually think you were right and go off and tell all their friends they know everything they need to know about boost. If you don't have actual background on what you're posting about, maybe you should stay out of it instead of posting untruths that you may have heard or read in Super Street.

 

ok , shamless plug but i still have a built auto tranny to sell!! the only auto which is known to hold over 500 to the wheels and is warrantied!!!

 

Damn, I was too busy reading his BS to notice he ragged on my wheels.

Just for the record, those Konigs are in fact 18x8" old school Volk Racing AV3's. 3 piece forged and polished wheels made by Rays Engineering in Japan and not cheap knock offs.

Here's a closeup if you can't tell the difference:

Please note none of them say Konig. Those little bolts actually hold the wheel together.

And a link on the MSRP if you still think they're Konigs (Didn't actually pay that much but they're still a bit more than any Konigs) I bought them from another OG Maxima.org member Ming.

Redmax,
Wish we could go w/ that tranny right now but we're saving for a truck and trailer right now before we go all out on the car.

gameover03,
sorry for the hijacking of the thread but it's a problem w/ newbies spreading misinformation and misleading people when there are plenty of experienced people who have gone through all the trials and failures.

 

I learned some stuff in this thread, keep it coming guys

 

ya, no ish, i learned alot too.
but if i were to turbo or sc my max w/o a lsd, namely a quaife, this is not a good idea, no?
darn i want a quaife but i hear they no longer manufactured.

 

You'll make more than enough torque to sit and smoke one tire all day long w/ any turbo or s/c setup. Shadow used to have some simple clutch type LSD's made and maybe he'll start making them again if there's any demand.

His car has one and it works great if we can just stop his car from bogging off the line.

 

clutch lsd's wear out quickly and are costly to repair?

 

Not really, that may have been the case a while back, but these days clutch type LSD's are pretty reliable. Mine's been running for over 30K now on boost and we haven't had to take it out for anything. And on the ones I get, there is a lifetime warranty.

 

its a shame there has to be a strong arguement for people to send out good knowledge

 

But sometimes a good debate is fun

 

I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that somebody just got

 

no wet is safer

 

What ever happend to sadlers maxima? Anybody know exactly

 

Sadly, it got vandalized really bad at a show. He ended up fixing it somewhat and selling it to someone local to him in FL. He now rolls in a new G35 coupe with some nice new toys.

 

How do you know his Stock stall Con is damaged or slipping? Please enligten me on this subject. I know nothing about autos You must know!


I am as hell again, what does ragging on his wheels have anything to do with this subject? You really need glasses! Those wheels are Volks. They cost alot Why are you attacking the man like that? He has not attacked you personally. I know this guy personally and hes not an arrogant guy so calm down. He may own a prelude but does work on Maximas. You need to chill a bit before ragging on a person that has not ragged you out.

 

That sucks, I seen that car in person one time at a stone mt meet and that thing was bad, what all did they do too it

 

Pretty much everything you can imagine.

 

Brandon give me a call, its about the summit switch in your car, need to know how to hook it up/set it up etc..


Jaime