Sorry if this has been addressed before. This is my first post.

I am looking for a sporty sedan with a price limit of $24-25k. I like the FWD A4 1.8T, and I would be willing to settle for a Passat, but I am a little worried about the cost and availability of replacement parts a few years down the road. Naturally, I also looked at the Maxima, since it seems to offer a good compromise between sportiness and reliability/cost of maintenance. With the ongoing rebates, a base manual SE can be had for about $21,600. That's a great price!

But nowadays, it would be foolish to buy a car without side airbags, and one would expect a $22-23k car to have them standard. No problem, it's offered as an option, right? Yes, but to get the side aribags, you need to get the "meridian" and "comfort" packages, which bump the price by about $2200! But I don't want a sunroof (even for free) or most of the other useless crap that comes with these packages (17" tires excepted). Right away, the price doesn't look as good anymore.

God forbid, if you want leather, the price goes up by $4000 because of all the other packages you have to buy. I realize that manufacturers must use packages to keep cost and inventory complexity down. But it seems like with the Maxima, you get either a base model or a fully loaded one, with hardly anything in between.

I was able to get past the ugly rear bumper, but the options scheme completely turned my off of the Maxima. I suspect many others feel the same way. Instead of advertising relentlessly and throwing around desperate rebates, maybe Nissan should think over its options strategy to improve the lousy sale figures of the Maxima. Am I being too **** or do others also feel that Nissan is shooting in its foot by forcing so many packages down customers' throats?

 

Why don't U grab one from Canada?? Have it sent down!

I live in Canada ... and For our Maxima's ... we have only 3 choices!

GXE, GLE and SE

They are SET ...

So U cannot get a GLE or SE without Leather ... its just not Available.

A SE in Canada cost about $36,000 Canadian!

And thats FULLY Loaded ... with EVERYTHING!

 

I agree that Nissan's option pakages are not all that great when it comes to choosing what you want. But if you are seriously considering the maxima, I would wait until the 2002 models are released. Are you sure you don't want the new Altima 3.5

 

Only thing I wanted in my Max was a sunroof. That meant going aftermarket because it only came as part of a package with other crap I didn't want. Thought about Bose, but you must have leather, but to get leather you must get the...so on and so forth. The only way I was able to leave out of there satisfied was to either not buy a Max or buy a no-packaged SE for no more than invoice.

 

Before I got my Maxima, I was looking into a Celica GTS and I found them to be the same. To get the Sunroof, I had to get option blah blah blah. So Nissan isn't the only one doing this. I like the way Honda does it better. Just my opinion though.

 

Honda is perhaps the easiest to buy options from....they have no packages! Just three trim lines....

 

I didn't think the option packages were that bad, primarily because I wanted alot of stuff.

Volvo, on the other hand, has large option packages that cost alot of money, compared with smaller packages costing less.

 

Why are side airbags so important? Am I missing something?

They are a nice feature, but I would never exclude a car because it lacks them stock... However, something like lack of ABS, or dual airbags, for example, would definitely turn me off...

-Tom Z.

 

I think he wants them due to the increasing amount of jack-a$$ed non-driving ****'s out there, IMO . I'm not saying everyone can't drive, there's just too many people who really can't and shouldn't be allowed too :P.

 

Ya... i totally agree with you... I often(daily), drive in NJ traffic... Dear lord, some people shouldn't be allowed to walk, yet they still drive...

Anyway, I still don't see the importance of side airbags, as I doubt that they alone can make the difference between life and death... It's a nice supplementary safety feature, but I wouldn't exclude a car because it's not included in the EXACT option package I want... Nissan has to make some choices when it comes to package offerings, and unfortunately, they can not please everyone..

Meanwhile, i'm very happy with my SE + C&C :-)


-Tom

 

Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but I don’t like sunroofs. I had one on my ‘91SE. I never opened it in the rain, of course; never in hot weather because it would draw out the cool air ( I refuse to use our forum youngsters' favorite word: suck); and it was too noisy on the freeways. And after a few years it started to rattle, a rattle I could never cure. I had to search a bit to find a 2000 GLE without one, but I’m glad I did.

 

You are most vulnerable to serious injury when you get T-boned from the side. You have less than a foot separating you from the point of contact, and your crumple zone is the 4-5 inch thickness of a flimsy door. This is compared to the 4-5 feet long of massive energy absorbing structure that protects you in frontal collisions. In addition, 3-point seatblets are pretty useless for side collisions. I can guaranty that if you get hit from the side, near the driver door, by a 3500lbs vehicle that just ran a red light at 35mph, your chances of survival are very slim. A worse scenario would be an SUV that can hit you at window level. Unless you have curtain type side airbags, your skull will be squashed like a ping pong ball. Check out side collision ratings for same cars with and without airbags.

If I had to choose between front and side airbags, I would take the sides without hesitation.

This is one thing that really p*sses me off about certain manufacturers. They lump together safety and luxury options. While I am venting , let me add I don't understand why Nissan and some others slap an ungly spoiler on every model with semi-porty pretentions, like the Altima SE, Maxima SE, etc.

 

Hmm... well, if 4-5 inches of flimsy door aren't gonna help keep your head from being squashed like a ping pong ball, how is 1 mm or so of polymer bag gonna help?? I'm not disputing the safety benefits of side airbags, just the fact that I continually fail to see how they could make the life-death difference in a side collision... If you get hit from the side by anything going 35 mph, you are prolly dead long before you realize what happened..

If I had to choose before front and side airbags, it would definitely be front air bags... hands down... no contest...

As for the spoiler, I can't see myself in a Maxima without one... call me prejudiced, but I think Maxima's without the rear spolier look significantly uglier... perhaps it's just a psychology thing (looking at my Max with a spoiler every day, and then the contrast caused by the same car driving by without one).. It just feels as if the rear-end of a maxima is missing something if there is no spoiler..

Also.. **in theory**, a well designed spoiler can add significant handling advantages at high speeds... However, I don't for a second believe that our spoilers offer much practical benefit at highway speeds... It's undoubtedly all for show...

-Tom Z.

 

The same way the 1mm front airbag does??

 

Umm... no... you see the front airbag prevents you from hitting the steering column in a frontal collision... (actually there is a very good physics explanation for why it works particularly well in preventing injury).. In a frontal collision, your body retains forward momentum (it's moving along with the car at 65 mph or so)... when your car stops (accident), your head does not stop until something stops it... (admittedly your seat belts do the bulk of the work here).. however, in a severe collision, your head has 2 options... it either hits a fairly rigid steering column, or a softer airbag.. Intuitively, of course, one chooses the airbag...

But here's the reason why... We all learned at one point (i hope) that you can quantify the amount of force by multiplying mass times acceleration... since the ultra smart nissan engineers haven't figured out a way to decrease the mass of your head during a collision, they do the next best thing, decrease the acceleration (or de-acelleration, depending on your point of view).. How? by increasing the time it takes change your heads velocity from 65mph to 0 mph... (recall acceleration is dv/dt).. (ie.. the airbag slows your head down more gradually than the steering column does, keeping your cranium in one piece)... if the concept still bother's you, you can think of an egg being thrown at a brick wall, and a fluffy pillow.. the reason it breaks against the brick wall, and not the pillow, is simply because the fluffly pillow stops it more gradually...


In your previous post you imply that the side airbag **could** save your life in a side collision... If you get t-boned from your (driver's) side, that 1mm or so of bag isn't gonna do you any good... You are getting squished either way :-(

Perhaps you were thinking of getting hit from the other side (passenger).. well, then the side airbag still doesn't help you, since you will not even make contact with it when it deploys (assuming it deploys at the time of the collision)..

In my mind, the only way the airbag could possibly help you, is if it prevents you from hitting something HARD during a collision... Trying as hard as I could, i was only able to come up with a few fabricated situations in which this would occur... Honestly, side airbags are undoubtedly a nice thing to have... but not crucial IMHO..

-Tom

 

The airbag does indeed reduce the amount of applied force by reducing the deceleration rate. But in addition, the deformable shape also helps substantially by "spreading" the impulse (let's call it "total force") to a larger area of your body. A good analogy would be dropping your arm onto a slab of concrete or a sharp nail. With a much smaller contact area, the nail will create a very lage loclized force which will puncture your flesh/bone. Wheareas with the concrete, your will experience a much smaller force (locally) spread over a much larger area, and you may not even bruise.
Of course, just like the front airbag, the side airbag inflates to a much larger cushioning thickness than 1mm.
Well, the "hard" thing that will be hitting you, every time, is your door frame or the front bumper of the other car. The side airbag works the same way as a front airbag, that is by cushionning and spreading the force. if you check the side crash ratings on the NHTSA website, you'll see that having a side airbag typically increases the side crash rating of a car by one star. Side airbags which protect your head are even more effective. Even a mild SUV bumper thump on your head would seriously injure or kill you. A side head airbag can provide significant protection for such accidents. Check out this article:

http://www.hwysafety.org/news_releas...0/pr121400.htm

If you don't want to read the article, here is a quote: "These tests demonstrate that people can survive serious side impact crashes in the real world because head airbags prevent their heads from striking rigid objects."

 

I agree with everything you said, Tom. Especially about Maxima's looking odd without rear spoilers. I think that av_audi should look elsewhere.

 

Yup, you are of course correct... I neglected to mention this fact, since it seems MUCH more intuitive, and much less relevant.. you see, both types of airbags share this feature in common, wheras the de-celeration only applies if there is initial motion in that direction (ie. front air bags).. Also, more intuitive -> the force per unit area decreases with larger area.. It's like spreading a fixed amount of peanut butter on bread.. if you have a small piece of bread, your gonna have a lot of peanut butter in one place... large loaf of bread, and you have a little peanut butter everywhere..


True, but you expressed concern that there were only 4-5 inches of door.... the air (gas) inside the airbag does not count last time i checked... if your imaginary suv smashes through that door, the airbag is NOT going to save you..




Hmm.. if the accident's so bad that you get hit in the head with the front bumper of the other car, you are going to die, regardless of whether or not there's an airbag there... IMHO those airbags are there to prevent a casual bump of the head during mild to medium accidents... The ones that restrict your head movement during an accident CAN prove to be beneficial, but only under particular circumstances..



Well, you do realize that these test scores are relative... IE.. 5 stars is 5 stars because the performance of that car RELATIVE to other cars was REALLY good... IMHO, no side air bag system deserves a passing grade.. Due to technical limitations on what an airbag can actually do for you in an accident, I believe the real-world benefit to be over-hyped, and inflated by relativistic grading...

However, I am NOT arguing that side air bags are completely worthless... there is a reason they put them in cars (aside from making more money), and studies have undoubtedly been conducted by people with far more expertise than myself.
What does perplex me is your insistance that they are the absolute best thing since sliced bread, and your unwillingness to consider a car without them... The maxima is a great value, a pure joy to drive, and one of the safest mid-sized sedans out there... (and, if you are willing to pay extra, you CAN get side air bags!! Caveat:: you have to be willing to pay extra for almost useless "features" such as a low windhsield wiper fluid light!! :-)

 

I wish that you could just pick and choose the options you want, but since the majority of imports are packaged deals it kinda sucks cause like many have noted, there are things that you don't want or can do without. My uncle ordered a Ford Explorer and he got to choose the options he wanted. I guess most american made cars give you that option.

 

Yes, get one from Canada for main 5 reasons:


- Maximas has no stupid packages in Canada, just GXE, SE and GLE. SE is basically the top.

- Current exchange rate from USD to CAD is ridicously good deal for all you Yankee!!!

- SE has 17" and differential without any package

- SE and GLE have leather and side air bags without package

- Help the Canadaian economy!!!

 

i doubt you can get the audi a4 1.8T for under $30k which eliminates that from your option list...passat's are alright but not so great...it all depends on what you are looking for in a car...you can buy a celica gt-s for around $23k with leather, side airbags, cd/am/fm/cass, 6spd manual tranny and it will do the 1/4 mile much faster than a max will stock for stock (they also make a lot more parts for toyotas and when you buy TRD parts, they are warrantied from the factory)...just something to think about...take a look around, you can find lots of nice cars for around the $20k price range...if you don't want to spend $25k for a maxima w/ not all the options you want, maybe looking in other directions might be a good idea

 

Wether you are decelerating (front airbags) or being accelerated by the car hitting you on the side merely depends on what you choose as a frame of reference. If you are stationary and a car hit you head on, your body is bieing accelerated by the car/steering structure hitting you. Are the front airbags not doing their work anymore? Of course they are. You are bringing up a distinction between side and front airbags that just does not exist.
The concern was that you get hit by hard structure. The airbag cushions it and spreads the force around. This is no different from how the front airbag protects you from the hard steering column.
Obviously, you haven't read the article for which I provided a link.
They aren't over-hyped anymore than front airbags are.
But you chose to ignore the pointers I provided to such studies.
Please don't put words in my mouth. I said no such thing. I just think side airbags are no less valuable than front airbags, ABS, or any other modern safety feature.
The Maxima is a good value. It is more enjoyable to drive than any Camry or Accord. But when the price climbs up with the options, you suddenly have more to chose from, in a leaugue far above the Camrys and Accords. As to being "one of the safest midsizes out there", I don't know what you are basing your opinion on. Highway death rate and crash testing data put the Maxima about in the middle, slightly behind the Camry and Accord (which is not bad).
Sure. Well, I started this thread by basically saying that Nissan should be smarter about their options packaging, and look where that got us

 

Don't doubt. Just check any car selling site such as carsdirect, and you'll see that you can have a FWD 1.8T with sport package for 24-25K (+tax). It comes fairly loaded as is.
I insist on 4 doors. Maybe the option packages will change a little for 2002. I am obviously looking at other brands as well, but the Maxima is a good car overall, and I am not ready to rule it out yet.

 

Shopping for my 00 SE, I managed to find a 5spd with Bose and sunroof but no leather. Tough to find, but spending that much money, you should get what you want. As for side impacts in Maximas, last year my 96 got T-boned by a telephone pole. Impact was right at the front of the driver's side door. The whole are was pushed in about a foot, but I came out with nothing but a scratch. I think the FSTB helped alot structurally in that.

 

I beg to differ.. there is a HUGE distinction.. Last time I checked, my car drives forward... not sideways... there is a reason that your front airbags are mounted in FRONT, and not in your armrest, cupholder, or under the seat.... the fact that you can choose any arbitrary point of reference when thinking about these things has no consequence in our discussion. The front airbags only do their job effectively when they stop your head from slamming into the steering column during a frontal collision... If someone hits you from behind, (or from the side for that matter), they surely deploy (unfortunately due to the way in which they were designed), but no longer offer much, IF ANY advantage...

(as a matter of fact, deployment of these airbags in situations where they are NOT beneficial is a very recent topic of debate... The force with which they deploy is calculated based on the worst-case, frontal collision scenario, and has traditionally been fixed in airbag systems.. Hence the recent advent of variable-force airbags, and smarter sensors which attempt to determine whether or not the airbag is even necessary [based on various factors, such as crash dynamics, occupant size, weight, etc.]




Actually, see above... Since you drive forward, the general direction of momentum at any given time is USUALLY forward.... Therefore the frontal airbag prevents you from slamming into the steering column during a rapid de-celeration (an accident)...

Since your head never really has much sideways momentum to begin with (unless you consider the most fabricated scenarios possible), the side airbag's ONLY benefit is in the way it spreads out the force to a larger area... (as you mentioned)..

Apples and Oranges in my mind... IMHO the front airbag is infinitely more useful...




Actually, I glanced over it, and was obviously not as impressed as you were... Let me elaborate.. The link you provide considers two very fabricated and controlled experiments conducted on only two cars.. Needless to say, these tests were SPECIFICALLY engineered to test the effectiveness of side air bags.. Therefore, the results obtained are undoubtedly close to the MAXIMUM amount of benefit you could hope to achieve

In the real world, things tend to be much different, and just looking at the numbers presented, it is clear that an increase of let's say 5-7 mph would have undoubtedly rendered the side airbags equally worthless..




Let me re-iterate in case you missed it the first time... Under normal driving conditions, your body does not have "sideways" momentum... (unless you are taking a corner, or curve, etc.. but even then, it's negligable compared to 65mph forward!) Front airbags are infinitely more useful in the majority of collisions i can imagine...




You expect me to believe that side airbags ARE JUST AS IMPORATNT as something like ABS?? Well, that's certainly news to both myself, and practically every insurance company out there...



The depends on what you mean by a league far above Camry's and Accords... If you are perplexed about the couple hundred or so it takes to get side airbags on a Maxima, I certainly do not recommend going up to the "next level"..

Nah... I think all of the useless features, like the windshield wiper fluid light, and side airbags are lumped by nissan into the Meridian Package :-)

Well, except for the heated mirrors... I think those would be super cool and super useful.. And in my mind, probably have as much chance of saving my life as side airbags on some snowy evening...

 

this argument is DUMB, IMHO. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and views, so instead of trying to persuade each other, JUST DROP THE ISSUE.

 

In my mind, the only way the airbag could possibly help you, is if it prevents you from hitting something HARD during a collision... Trying as hard as I could, i was only able to come up with a few fabricated situations in which this would occur... Honestly, side airbags are undoubtedly a nice thing to have... but not crucial IMHO..

-Tom





Does the side airbag prevent you from hitting that rigid door frame?

 

Ya... but in the majority of collisions, are you going to hit the door frame, or the steering wheel?? There ya' go.. Even in a side collision, chances are you aren't gonna hit the door frame... the door frame is gonna hit you...

As the previous post said, this is whole topic is silly... I just can't seem to get past the fact that someone could rule out a car based solely on the lack of a superficial (my opinion) feature such as side airbags.. My opinion is my own, of course...

To av_audi.. good luck in choosing a car.... but just a bit of advice, give the maxima some further thought before you pass up this awesome car..


-Tom Z.

 

And let me repeat that it is completely irrelevant whether you have any momentum before a collision. It is the CHANGE in momentum (remember Newton's second law?) which creates the injury causing forces.

When you are stationary, and someone slams into you head on (from the front!), the hitting car will transfer momentum to your car, which will then essentially "come at you" and smash your face with the steering wheel, unless the front airbag deploys. It's the same thing when you get hit from the side. You may not have sideways momentum before the collision, but the car hitting you will transfer a very unhealthy dose of it to you.

It's more like a couple of thousands, since you have to get the comfort (or whatever) package with the meridian. I don't want a freaking sunroof which will likely start rattling and leaking sooner or later. A number of manufacturers lump sunroofs with other "luxury items"; that's understandable. But of all the cars I looked at in the 20-30k range, Nissan is the only one to lump airbags with sunroofs, heated seats, etc. It just doesn't make sense to package such completely unrelated items together. Nissan has very competitive engineering, but the company hasn't been performing to its potential thanks to a clueless marketing department and increasingly unappealing exterior styles.

 

There you go. it's the same thing! See my other post for the equivalence in a frontal collision.
Thanks. I am not ruling out the Maxima yet. Picking any car requires making certain compromises, and I may simply resign to having a sunroof (I am sure some of you are fuming that someone is looking at having a sunroof as a minor sacrifice. Eh, such is life )

I will now take note of the few hints dropped about this thread and just dump the subject.