Bill (Oil Master), help explain to me WTF is wrong with my car. Oh and how to get you all this data to add to your spreadsheet. I ran 8500 miles on Amsoil 5w-30 with an Amsoil SDF filter and here is the response I received in the comments section minus some of the standard terminology...."We found all wear except lead and tin to be at average levels. Both metals can come from bearings, and these metals may be high enough to suggest a bearing problem in the engine. The TBN was fairly low @ 5.5, but we don't consider it a problem until it reads at 2 or less. Considering the bearing wear, we suggest resampling in 5000 miles to monitor bearing wear. No gas, moisture or anti-freeze found."

My tin ppm was 4 based on average of 1 and lead was F'n 77 with an average of 13. WTF?! Hell, calcium, phosporus and zinc were higher than the averages although not bold printed like the lead and tin were. This freakin car has been pampered with synthetics since the 1800 mile mark and now has approximately 25K on it. I'm definitely gonna get another analysis at the 5k point, but what the hell is up? I have heard of no other VQ indicating this level of wear. Is my baby on the brink of death?!


Somebody help me.....

 

Maybe there was a problem with the sample? Doesn't sound like the other data coming back for engines with synthetics... Sorry I can't be more helpful...

 

You are freaking me out here. I recently switched to Amsoil 5w30 and SDF filter. Is your car auto or stick? If stick, be honest in answering this question: Do you bog the engine a lot?

 

Don't mean to freak anyone out Smooth O. I just wanna know wtf is up with my baby!! Mine is an autotragic so I can't bog the engine. My first thought is there is a problem that is engine related and not a function of the oil or filter. Others have run the same oil and filter well over 8500 miles with no adverse analysis results. I don't know wtf to do....

 

Ouch. Those readings are not normal. Granted, I'm no expert, but for a car with 25K you should not be seeing high levels of bearing wear. I would suspect that there is an underlying problem, such as brief oil starvation or a partial blockage somewhere. Is your car still under warranty?

The reason the calcium, phosphorus and zinc were not bold is because those are anti-wear additives, not wear metals that can indicate a problem.

 

Yeah I would like to find out too. My last sample indicated that my lead was 2PPM and tin was 1PPM. That was with Mobil's Drive Clean Blend (synthetic blend) and at 87K miles. I was doing very well with a different brand of oil. All wear read below the averages. I don't like the idea of spending extra money for better protection to later find out that its worse.

I wonder if you can take your car into the dealership to make a warranty claim based on your analysis.

I wonder if you can make a claim against Amsoil's warranty (assuming that the wear was a direct cause of the oil of course):

 

I'm still over 10K under the 36k warranty expiration. But what do I go tell the Nissan bastards. Hey my oil analysis shows some weird sh@t! They'll likely say, no codes, no obvious problems, no help from us! How would I detect an oil starvation or partial blockage? Should I run some engine cleaner junk through at the next oil change?
Thanks for the detail on the additives. I checked Bill's spreadsheet and got the same info, but not til AFTER I had posted.

 

I don't know what I can do at this point other than change at 5K and get another analysis and see if the results are much different next time. If not then I'll have 2 sets of analyses showing some sort of problem and can TRY to get Nissan to dig into the problem under warranty. I think both Nissan and Amsoil are likely to argue that since there is no FAILURE then they aren't liable..and even after a failure they'll likely question my oil change interval since I change it myself and have no outside (read Jiffy Lube) paperwork to support my mileage claim. Is there any chance that I changed from dino to synthetic too soon to allow for normal breakin wear? I dumped my dino oil at 1800 miles and ran Mobil 1 for 4K before switching to Amsoil from 6000 to 11k, oil & filter change then 11K to 16500, another oil and filter change then 16500 - 25k. All oils and filters after the Mobil one change used Amsoil 5w30 and SDF filters. Man I didn't think 8500 miles was pushing too much.

 

The "scare" from switching from dino to synthetic "too early" mainly centers on the piston ring's ability to seat against cylinder bores, not potential problems with the bearings, so I don't think that is the cause.

I took a glance at the Nissan New Car warranty, and they do not explicitly exclude "breakdown"-type damage (maybe they did in 2k1?). Amsoil does not differentiate between breakdown and failure with respect to damage warranty coverage, but they do require that you submit the parts for their inspection (remove the stupid bearings = $$$$$).

Since your car has such low mileage your argument that the wear is a cause of a factory defect is in your favor. Also, you have several VQ analyses w/ much higher mileage at your disposal which exhibits much lower wear readings. I don't know what else to tell you


EDIT: one question: Did you extend your interval to 8500 miles per a prior oil analysis? Or???

 

My last mileage interval was mostly the result of being out of town on business for the month of March and part of April racking up mileage without realizing it. Ideally I would have changed at the 5 to 6k interval until analysis said otherwise....Once I realized I had gone that far I trully wasn't concerned knowing the data from Bill's spreadsheet supported that range of mileage in VE/VQ engines using Amsoil oil and filters. I'm stumped on this. There must be a problem trying to reveal itself to show those metals at that rate. I've tried to blame it on a bad filter or something but I really I don't know how a defective filter would pump those numbers up. My driving habits were about 70/30 highway to city during this interval so I expected flawless results due to minimal stop and go crap.

 

Stevie,

It's up to you on how you want to send the data and comment results. If you can scan it and e-mail it to me as an attachment, that's fine. If you would prefer just to brute force e-mail all specific values and the comments, then that would be fine as well.

Let me know what you would like to do. After learning a little more background from you privately, then I'll try to intelligently comment.


Thanks for your contribution.

 

Maybe they accidently switched your oil with a Honda.

Steve post your results with Bill, so we have that information for future reference incase others run into the same problem. Also, DEFINITELY do NOT do an extended drain interval until you remedy the problem and your levels are within the normal range. I would try swithing to a 10W-30 or even a 10W-40 for the thicker oil film at operating temperature to help decrease bearing wear. I would NOT run a 5W-30 unless you regularly operate in EXTREME cold weather(i.e. Canada).

Next, get another analysis at 3K to see how much difference there is between 3K with the 10W-30/10W-40 and the 8500 with 5W-30. I'm still not 100% convinced on pushing an "oil" that far, but I'm trying to keep an open mind while observing Bills data. You might find with the 3K mile interval analysis that the oil is not the problem and that your wear levels are a definite sign of engine trouble.

I know for a FACT Nissan will fight you on this. They don't accept 3rd party tests such as dynos, oil analysis, etc.. Basically, if your car is NOT showing physical repeatable signs of a problem they will give you the run around. Your best bet is to keep testing the oil to see if the problem gets worse. If it does you should think about possibly selling it sooner rather than drive it for a few more years risking costly repairs once the engine and powertrain warranty expires(60K miles?).


Slightly OT, but:
Oil analysis is a POWERFUL tool and I think eventually manufacturers are going to fear that this amount of information is available to the consumer. An example is how manufactures are going more with "dummy lights" on the dash then actual temp, pressure, accurate RPM, etc. guages. Basically, if they allowed you Real Time information, most consumers would see a NORMAL fluctuation in temperature/pressure/RPM and rush to their nearest dealer, costing millions of dollars in diagnosis and bogus repairs. I've seen this in my field of work with airplane pilots. Each time we increase the amount of information available to the pilot, we get more and more problem reports on NORMAL fluctuations that 10yrs. ago the pilot would never have seen. So, to reduce the problem reports we buffer the outputs and limit the accuracy, which is bad but I'd rather leave it up to the computers then a human brain.

 

Bill, I've got a scanner in the office here so I'll have it to you within the hour. I'll check your profile for an email address and leave you my pager # to contact me with.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IceY2K1
[B]

Maybe they accidently switched your oil with a Honda.

Steve post your results with Bill, so we have that information for future reference incase others run into the same problem. Also, DEFINITELY do NOT do an extended drain interval until you remedy the problem and your levels are within the normal range. I would try swithing to a 10W-30 or even a 10W-40 for the thicker oil film at operating temperature to help decrease bearing wear. I would NOT run a 5W-30 unless you regularly operate in EXTREME cold weather(i.e. Canada).

Ice, keep in mind that I'm using a fully synthetic motor oil as is. What is the difference at operating temps between a 5w30 and a 10w 30? I thought they were identical and only at startup does the lighter weight come into play. Am I wrong here? I agree that I won't be extending the interval anytime soon. I'll go 5K and get another analysis to see what's up at that time. In the meantime, I'm worried sick. My car feels stronger than ever and the gas mileage has in fact been the best since I purchased her so I can't understand this ****! I assumed Nissan wouldn't support me on this...just not sure what I'll do if the next analysis comes back with similar results. Hell even if it doesn't I don't know how to explain this one.

 

I have a couple of comments.

I agree with the comments about going to an oil with a higher viscosity. Go to a 10W40. Or 15w40 This will help prevent the oil from being squeezed out of the connecting rod bearings.

Secondly how long did you run the oil, In months? I’ve researched the cause of high lead metals in oil and it may be caused more by corrosion rather than wear. Look at your ratios, the tin wear was approx. 4 times normal, while the lead was 7 times the normal wear. This could indicate the oil has corroded the lead, rather than wear it off. I’ll second the comment, don’t under any circumstances extend the drain interval in miles or time. Amsoil is a high TBN oil, it may have dropped in half, some oil experts say that TBN dropped below 50% indicates a problem.

Thirdly, Amsoil does not use any Molybdenum as part of their anti-wear package, they rely on heavy levels of zinc/phospher compounds (Zinc dithiophosphate). You may want to switch to an oil that includes Molybdenum. This is known as a barrier additive, as the moly plates the metal surfaces and prevents metal to metal contact.

 

Okay, Stevie, I'll try and take a look at it today and then e-mail you in the next day or two. But there's no need to panic.

 

A snippet of an e-mail conversation I've had with Don about Amsoil not using Moly:



I agree with Don. I don't think moly does anything for a true synthetic oil. You could make the case for dino oil because it will break down quicker than a synthetic.

Obviously, this is the main point of divergence between Redline and Amsoil. From outward appearances in our analysis results, Amsoil looks to win the extended drain battle, but I don't think Redline is marketed to be an "extreme" extended drain oil while Amsoil is. Redline believes that their oil formulation and the use of Moly does improve it's ability to protect better than Amsoil over a given interval (I would guess 10k or so).

At this point, it's splitting hairs as to which is "superior" unless you want to go extended drain intervals as several (including myself) do. It is certainly possible that a switch to Redline to go only 5 to 10k would allow better protection than Amsoil......and it would be interesting to see.

 

First off, Nissan prefers a 5W-30 oil. At operating temperature, there will be no difference between a 5W-30 and a 10W-30, they both have the same "hot" viscosity. Going to a 10W-40 or higher viscosity oil will only raise more flags at Nissan since they do not approve those weights. They will make your engine work harder to generate the same amount of power. If the engine is working harder it is being stressed more under the same conditions, which leads to higher temperatures and to an even higher rate of wear. Also, an engine with only 25K miles on it, especially a VQ, should not have to resort to these tactics to maintain oil pressure.


I run a 5W-30 year round where temperatures range from lows in the mid teens to highs in the upper nineties. The car is autocrossed and driven on roadcourses several times a year. My oil analysis results show below average wear, indicating a 5W-30 in hot conditions protects just fine.

 

Maxxed, I ran the oil less than 4 months for this mileage. I was putting an average of 100 - 150 miles a day for about 6 weeks just for work related crap so the mileage racked up pretty quickly. I may get a load of Mobil 1 tri synth if I can find any left and run it next time until my next analysis comes back. Does it have molybdenum in its package? If not, any high quality synthetic that does? I'm leery of running heavier weight 15wxx oil at this time but will try 10W30 next time again until analysis says things are normal. I just don't understand how an oil that consistently rates so highly and performs so well in most vehicles could be the direct cause of this problem. I'll just have to see what this current batch looks like after 5k and go from there. Thanks for your thoughts!

 

I agree this may be a risk with going to 10W-40, but his oil analysis shows that 5w-30 may not be providing enough bearing protection.

Oil pressure is not a factor here. He has a problem with “bottom end” wear. The connecting rod bearings are always submersed in oil, not part of the oil circuit.

Redline uses a soluble Moly compound, not a solid, so this isn’t a factor with Redline oil.

 

I'm having scsi drive troubles with my scanner so I'm working on another email solution Bill....Bear with me, I'll get it to ya ASAP!

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by maxxed
[B]




<<<<<<<Oil pressure is not a factor here. He has a problem with “bottom end” wear. The connecting rod bearings are always submersed in oil, not part of the oil circuit. >>>>>


NO WAY !!!!! If you put enough oil in to submerse the rod bearings the engine won't run. The rod and main bearings are definitely part of the oil circuit - except on Briggs & Stratton.

 

No, unfortunately Mobil doesn’t use moly. The only synthetic I’m aware of that uses it is Redline.

By most accounts Amsoil is good oil, but I’m convinced that there is no, one oil that best suits everyones needs. For example if you were a person that didn’t drive too often, you would want an oil that has a strong anti-corrosion package, since the metal parts would be constantly “soaking” in oil, while the car isn’t operating.

 

I didn't mean to imply that the rod and main bearing are completely submersed in oil. They are nearest and partly submerged in the oil pan, or close to the oil pump, not at the far end of the circuit, such as the upper part of the engine.

 

I think it is. It's the primary difference in their additive package....

 

I was referring to this quote you provided from an Amsoil guy:


At first he compares Moly to a snake oil, solid substance PTFE. (We all know PTFE has been proven to clump up and cause problems in engines). He implies that Amsoil refuses to use it for that reason? Then he goes on to say that it is a small enough solid not to be filtered out. So his comment seems a bit contradictory.

I wanted to counter that Redline uses a soluble form of moly, so there shouldn't be any concerns of a solid particle clumping and clogging oil passage ways etc

 

You're still treating the symptom and not the disease. With his driving conditions on an engine that only has 25K I would think there is an underlying problem that it not related to the oil itself.

 

Your point here is well taken. I was proceeding with the assumption that Nissan would not provide any assistance with this problem.

A few people here thought Nissan wouldn't honor a warranty claim based on an oil analysis. Maybe we shouldn’t make that assumption.

 

Ah, ok.

I probably took the snippet a little too out of context....

 

Unfortunately, I think you're right. At the very least, more data will be needed before Nissan will do anything. The good news is that the powertrain should be covered for 5 years or 60K, so there is time to sort this out before any out of pocket expenses should occur.

 

I may be getting way ahead of myself, but I think it's a factory defect. You should prepare yourself to make a claim against Nissan's warranty.

Again, based on Nissan's warranty literature, they do not exclude breakdown-type damage coverage (if someone knows otherwise, please speak up). If I were you I would perform the analyses per Nissan's drain intervals (3,750 Mi) instead of 5k. This way you'll have 2 analyses at 7,000 miles instead of one. Heck, why not three since the powertrain coverage is 5yr 60k miles. You drive a lot and will accumulate mileage in a short duration. It will bolster your case if you have the reports reflecting mileage intervals required by Nissan. I would also use an "API" approved oil. It may be a lesser quality product than Amsoil's extended drain interval synthetic, but it comes to question you will be in compliance. I would try to close any loopholes for them to deny you coverage.

Nissan will have a hard time denying you warranty coverage if you have definitive proof of excessive internal bearing wear. You may be setting a precedent for us.

 

Actually, Nissan prefers a 5W-30 for ALL AMBIENT TEMPERATURES. In other words, to include EXTREME cold environments that see sub 0-degree Fahrenheit weather.

If your vehicle sees 0 to 100+ degree Fahrenheit(as yours does) than a 10W-30 AND 10W-40 viscosity oil may be used per my Owners' manual.

Your right though that a 5W-30 is no different than the 10W-30 at operating temperatures with synthetics, but with mineral oils the larger the spread the MORE the oil is thickened with a polymeric plastic which is less effective under high shear conditions such as the BEARINGS and cylinder walls. A 10W-40 is definitely a better choice in HIS case to help TRY and reduce bearing wear.


Your car would still get better protection from a 10W-40. However, since your using a synthetic your already providing more protection than if you ran a 10W-30/10W-40 mineral oil. Just because your oil analysis results show below average wear doesn't mean it can't be reduced even further.

 

Where in your owners manual does it say you can use a 10W-40? I know you can use a 10W-30 if ambient temps. stay above freezing, but a 10W-40?

You're absolutely correct about mineral oils and the viscosity spread, but he is using a synthetic oil already. Aslo, in HIS case, as I posted previously, there is an underlying problem. Instead of trying to reduce the bearing wear, I would be trying to find what is causing it and have it corrected; preferrably by Nissan, since so far it appears to be a manufacturing deal.

Considering I extend my drain intervals and how drastic the weather changes can be in New England, I'm better off with the 5W-30 since it's proven to protect very well under my driving conditions. The "extra" protection I might get from going to a 10W-30 could negated by one cold start if the temperature drops. 1 month ago we had a 96 degree day. 1 week later it snowed. With changes like that I'll keep the 5W-30 and also enjoy the slightly better fuel economy.

 

yikes i just put 5w-30 amsoil in my 2k2 yesterday hope its not the oil causeing all this wear

 

I think you have nothing to worry about my friend...I highly doubt the oil is the root of this evil...but I aim to find out over the next 10k miles!

 

If you have read the spreadsheet, it's easy to deduce that it ain't the oil. We have quite a few VQs that have exhibited no such issues.

Please don't jump to conclusions.

 

i'm not jumping to conclusions if i was i would go drain the oil out right now so please lay off a little

 

It's in the "Do it yourself" or "Maintenance" section where it tells you which oil you should use. I can get you the page number when I get home tonight or scan it tomorrow at work.

Right, but AMSOIL does add viscosity improvers(polymers) to their 5W-30 to get the 25 point spread(also 10W-40) and the thinner the base(5W vs. 10W) the more polymer thickners they must add to increase the viscosity range. Supposedly, they don't add viscosity improvers to the 10W-30 and 15W-40. This may be outdated , but it's the latest I found.

You said low teens to mid/high 90's, so a 5W-30 synthetic is more than adequate. I was just saying a 10W-30 AMSOIL synthetic will have pumpability to <-40F(SAME as the 5W-30). By using the 10W-30 you will cover all your "drastic weather" changes, increase the protected temperature range, while reducing the amount of unstable polymer thickners that breakdown in high shear conditions such as the bearings and cylinder walls.

Just my .02, which ain't worth much!

 

You don't have to scan it; I believe you. The owners manual for the 5th gens must be different in this regard than the one for my 97. Mine has no mention of a 10W-40 and I thought most manufacturers where moving away from the "thicker" oils in order to improve fuel economy. That's why I found it odd.

According to Technical Services at Amsoil, both a 5W-30 and a 10W-30 start off with a very high viscosity index. Also, both those oils DO use polymers, but the amount in each oil is proprietary, so they wouldn't comment on which one uses more.

Just because the 10W-30 oil has a similar "borderline pumping temperature" does not mean that it will flow as well as a 5W-30 at those temperatures. The 5W-30 has a lower pour point as well, leading me to believe that it will be able to flow better at the colder temps and protect the engine better than a 10W-30.

I found the comments below, which are from the Valvoline website interesting as well:

Low-viscosity oils flow better than high-viscosity ones—the lighter-weight fluid is easier to pump and therefore circulates faster through the engine's various galleries. Low-viscosity oils also maintain a lower oil pressure, but the oil pump delivers a greater volume through the galleries than it would with thicker (higher-viscosity) oils. Heavier oils also tend to operate at higher temperatures because the oil pump has to work harder to force the lubricant through the system. Oil does not compress readily, so the added pressure increases the temperature. In the end, high-viscosity oils maintain a higher oil pressure, but the pump delivers a smaller volume of oil.

 

iwannabmw,

A technical question:
Does Amsoil give the ASTM D5275 shear stability spec. for their 5W-30 and 10W-30 oils?

That test is given as a percentage, which relates to how much viscosity the oil loses After being sheared.

I would expect the 10W-30 to hold up a bit better in this test.