Dave Shalita

My 87 Maxima standard sedans air conditioner is not cooling adequately. I have been urged to convert to later type Freon R-134 coolant. This requires a conversion kit in addition to normal servicing such as adding freon. Others have said, DO NOT CONVERT, use older freon it was designed to use.

Has any 87 Maxima owner converted his A/C to use the new freon? Does the coverted A/C cool as well and as fast?

Many thanks, Dave

MaxWgn

iTrader: (1)

I haven't converted, but I'm considering it myself. It is a published fact that R-134 does not cool as efficiently as R-12 did. However, with R-12 now beginning to push $100+ per can, and needing 2-3 cans on average...and that stuff's only getting more expensive...

Note, my research shows that no matter the vehichle, if you convert, you MUST install a new drier unit in the A/C. These average about $30-$50...for our cars, the official NTS Technical Bulletin says that we also need to replace the compressor with one compatible with R-134...however, from my research, we should be able to get away with just replacing the seals in the compressor with neoprene. If you can find them, I'd also suggest replacing all the rubber lines with barrier hose. This prevents leakage through the rubber hose, of the coolant vapor...

maximase86

iTrader: (24)

Well, here is the problem with R-134a. First, in order to have the best cooling efficiency, it must run at a much higher pressure, which in turns runs at a higher temperature. On older A/C compressors/system like ours (which stays on constantly when the system is running), converting to the R-134a can be destructive, and increase the chances of compressor failure. If you can find R-12 (very hard, and very expensive to do), you should go that route if you can. Otherwise, you might need to find an A/C compressor that will fit in our cars, is compatible with our A/C system and can run R134.

Most of the info I learned from when I use to have a 77 Mercedes 280E. On that Mercedes board, I've heard about people who converted from R-12 to R-134, and had horror stories. The same seems to have proven true for mose cars doing that conversion. Also keep in mind, R-134 will not blow as cold as R-12.

S

cecil

Hmm -- I have an '87 and still running on the original charge. I've been thinking for years that I'm due for a recharge but it keeps firing up OK. I get a bit of that "AC smell" but it's fine.

Is it really $300? Is R-12 even still available? Have to admit I haven't looked into it at all.

Thanks!

Charles Bisel

R-12 is readily available. The U.S. is one of only a handful of countries that has switched over to R-134 (thank the tree huggers for jacking us over). The only reason it's expensive is because of all of the federal tax that has been added to it, not because of its scarcity or difficulty to manufacture. Another problem is that even if you do want to stick with R-12, you won't be allowed to have your system recharged if there's a leak, which is good anyway because who wants to spend a couple of hundred bucks only have it to all dump out in a couple months.

Anyway, if your close enough to Mexico, drive down there and get your system recharged for cheap. Otherwise, do it the good old fashioned way and wind down the windows. I wouldn't bother wasting the money to do a conversion on a 16 year old car unless you plan on restoring it. Like Maxwgn and Sarin said, you have to change out a few parts, and even then it probably won't cool any better since R-134 isn't as good as R-12 and our cars weren't even designed for R-134 to begin with.

-C-

MaxWgn

iTrader: (1)

Very true to all comments...the only reason I'm wanting to do something is because I do have three kids, and sometimes they ride in the car with me...and since we're here in Texas, it can get pretty hot here...We're farther north than Dallas, at the very base of the panhandle, but we still get hot here in the summer...as high as 115 degrees...I may be opting for the Mexico route, maybe...of I'll have to convert.

I was given a quote of $800 for a full conversion, replacing the drier, resealing the compressor (much more to replace), completely vac out and evac the system, replacing all the soft lines with barrier hose, fitting conversions, oil and coolant, plus labor...where as it's only averaging about $400 - $500, including a new compressor, for my wife's 90 aerostar van...

maximase86

iTrader: (24)

Lol, mine is still running pretty well too. Though I wonder if I should have it serviced and checked. It's probably me, but it doesn't seem as cold as a while back...but then again if you leave your hand near the vent long enough, it will start to freeze a bit. I've checked the sight glass, and it doesn't show any bubbles at all. I've also noticed my compressor makes a little bit of noise when it's hot. :P It's funny too, my car is 17 years old, and the A/C works. Then I get in my dad's car, which is a 97 Volvo and his A/C doesn't work (found out it's low on coolant/oil, that's why the system cycles every few seconds)! On top of it, its running 134a.

S

cecil

Thanks for all the info.! As you can tell, I'm a new joiner to the group.

My '87 SE has been in the family it's whole life. My brother bought it in Feb. '88, and I took it over in '93 and have been driving it since. It's held up pretty well, although I've put a fair bit of money into it over the past 2-3 years.

I've cut a couple of corners here and there with respect to some non-OEM replacement parts (i.e. generic muffler) and tried to fix rather than replace a couple of things but it's still a workhorse and runs well. In the last few weeks I had to do a fairly major tuneup (150k miles!) and new tires. Kind of at the point where the car is certainly worth more than book value because it's clean, I know the history, etc. I couldn't come close to replacing it for the money I'd get for it, so I'll keep trying to keep it on the road. The original electronic struts are a little sloppy so maybe they're next.

Regards,
Cecil

jayrus

I am also new to this forum,but I am a mechanic by trade and I can give you my experience with a/c.My 87 Maxima has been converted to 134a and I couldn't be happier with it.There are a number of conflicting stories out there so hopefully I can clear the air a little.Here is what I do on a conversion.Evac any remaining refridgerant from system.Remove tubes from reciever dryer.If the line is clean and shiney(not grey or black)I do not replace it.Remove compressor and set aside to allow oil to drain(same with reciever dryer).Completely flush entire system with a/c flush.Add required amount of oil to compressor and reinstall.Add 1 ounce oil to rec/dryer and reinstall.Vacuum system down to 28" to remove any moisture from system.I let the system sit in a deep vacuum for 30 minutes to ensure no leaks.Recharge system with proper amount of 134a.A larger amount of 134a is required than r12(I think it is somewhere around 5% more).Start car and cycle compressor on and off about 10 times to circulate oil.With a thexton infrared temp probe I usually get the a/c down to about 25-30 degrees at idle in my shop.There are 2 important things to remember about 134a;1 it doesn't dissipate heat as well as r12,meaning sitting in traffic it won't be as cold as driving 60-70 mph;2 it is very important to get as much of the r12 mineral oil out of the system as possible,134 will not circulate mineral oil.The only time I have ever had problems is when I do a conversion for someone who supplies the kit.The kits from Pep Boys,Autozone,etc. use PAG oil.I only use ester oil in my conversions.Ester oil is much more expensive($15-$20 for 8 ounces vs $3-$5 for PAG),but it is worth is because it is non-corrosive.Pag oil will strip paint faster than brake fluid.By the way,I converted my 87 Max 4 years ago and it is still blowing ice cold air this year without ever having to recharge it.

John L

R-134 blows. It does not cool anywhere near as well as R-12. I converted a system some years back and have yet to be happy with it.

max95q

iTrader: (10)

And in Texas We arent talkin Pretty hot Its DAMN HOT!! Yesterday I couldve sworn with the windows down I was sittin in the engine bay, nothin but HOTASS air blowing on me through the windows. For real though 800. Yikes, I guess thats out the Question for me. I dont even know if mine has been changed over yet.

jayrus

If you are not happy with your conversion it wasn't done properly.I will not do any r12 charges because it costs me $700 for a 30lb can.For the price of a complete r12 recharge I can do a correct 134 conversion.You also can't just run to the store and buy r12 anymore,you have to be certified to buy it.I understand the weather can get hot in Texas,but I am sure it gets nearly as hot in the corner of my shop where I do the conversions.I tell you what I will do.Another member in the Ma. area can bring me their car and I will convert it at no charge to help prove to the rest of you that a properly done conversion works very well.

maximase86

iTrader: (24)

I'm just gonna stick with my R12. My system hasn't need a charge since my family go it, and the original owner says it hasn't been charged since new. I check the site glass from time to time, no bubbles, no contamination in the coolant.

S

dr.disc

Our second gen. Maximas only hold 2.2 pounds of R-12, except for the 85 models, which hold 2.0 pounds.

I have a horror story about a recharge on my 85 Maxima (the last one I rolled over, not the one I am driving now).

I got a NAPA-approved repair shop to do a R12 replacement on it because it quit getting cold. They used a dye to locate the leak, had me go to a salvage yard for another hose to replace it, charged it with R12, and then the electronics went nutso and the radiator fans wouldn't kick on when they were supposed to. The repair shop owner described in detail how I could get some wire, a switch, and told me to wire that in to get the rad fans to run, and I would be coolin' out.

At this point I was out about $350 for his bill and $16 for the modification.

So I followed his advice, put the switch , and got the a/c working. I drove part of a day that way in 100+ weather, and at an intersection, it went pop-whoosh and blew the refrigerant all over the engine compartment.

I took it back, he kept it for a month, called me for money, wanting another $400, totalling $700 so far, and when I called because I got "impatient", wanting my car back after a month of seeing it sit back behind his shop, he said it was finished, saying I owed him another $600. I went out to look at my car, and there were bolts and screws laying on the passenger-side floor. I started it up, and the A/C did not get cold. He said I couldn't have the car back unless I paid him , and that for another $3-400, he could get it working. He gave me a statement for a thousand bucks, said sorry it isn't working, and said if I couldn't afford the bill (I couldn't) I could just leave him the car and we could call it even. (This was a very, very slick 85 with paint you could shave in, a perfect interior, new Potenzas, and a $2800 stereo system (components, not install included in that total). I said you're billing me for work you have not completed, and billing me for re-do work you should have done right in the first place, and you don't have a repair order for the second round of work, so you don't have a lien on the vehicle for this repair work. He just laughed at me and said "Get out of here."

I went back with my wife in another car that afternoon, with a spare key and drove my car, with the A/C not working, back home

I back that afternoon with another key and drove my car home. I called him and told him I had it, so he wouldn't think somebody stole it. One of his guys saw me leave with it anyway. He threw a fit, saying he would have me arrested. I said it wasn't a matter for the police, and that is what they would say if he called them.

I took my car to another shop that fixed it right for $300 the next day.

Then he sued me in small claims court and won, getting a thousand-buck judgement. The judge wouldn't even look at my paperwork from the second repair shop, or my receipts for the wire and switch for his modification.
His paperwork claimed he put 7 pounds of R-12 in the car. The judge wouldn't even look at my repair manual, which says it has a capacity of 2 pounds, or take into account that he has a refrigerant re-capture rig.

I never paid him on the judgement, but the A/C repair did cost me $650 out of pocket, plus the thousand the NAPA guy claimed I owed.

I had a shop put 134a in my old 84 Ford, and it never got very cold. It cost me $500, because they replaced a bunch of parts, including the water pump, and the compressor quit the next day. I also had the condensor and radiator done at a radiator shop before that. I have to get a compressor and a new charge of 134 for that to work, the guy at that shop said.

I'm not taking my cars to any shop, anywhere, again.

maximase86

iTrader: (24)

No doubt. That is a really sucks to have a guy do that to you. I'm glad my a/c system is in really good condition. No complaints what so ever.

S

jayrus

I can see why you were so upset Dr.,and it is shops like that that give me a bad name.I tend to be one of the few around that charge actual time rather than book time.Most good mechanics can beat book time with their eyes closed,which is why I won't work for a new car dealer.Sorry to hear about what they did to you,but I hope you are able to find a local shop that you can trust.

rcy

I just topped up my system using Duracool. It blows ice cold now. It is totally compatible with R12 or R134 (depending on which type of Duracool you buy). It's legal here in Canada, but I've heard in some States it's illegal. It's supposed to be based on propane without the explosive capability (very high flash point) and is totally organic. (In fact, I've found out that you can conceivably run pure propane in your system) The nice thing about using it in an R12 system is that you don't have to retrofit anything like you do with an R134 conversion, and it cools way better than r134 and a bit better than r12. So far I've had no problems, though I did do it the backyard mechanic way in that I should have evacuated the whole system, then put only Duracool in, and I should have used a set of gauges to ensure the proper charge. I just connected a can until there where no more bubbles in my sight glass.

Anyhow, you can check this out for yourself and make your own decision. Here are some good links - www.duracoolusa.com www.duracool.com www.aircondition.com The Duracoolusa site sells a tune up kit.

Here's a garage in Toronto that does Duracool refits on R12 systems -
http://www.amlautoservice.com/aircond.asp They have only positive things to say about the stuff.