VEvolution

Just wondering, what would be more beneficial for a VG, a super charger or turbo charger... I was reading around in the "Turbocharged or Supercharged" forum at this site but just couldn't find a SCed VG..

Im thinkin that a supercharger would be better since I feel most of the power of the engine at low end, and as it progresses, you basically hit a wall. adding a SC would most definatly enhance this off the line pull and help in the mid to high range.

as for the beautiful VE, im guessing a turbo would be the forced induction of choice since it has a wider powerband?

what do you guys think? anybody with a SC set up?
thx,

Slicky

AscendantMax

iTrader: (7)

there was one guy here quite awhile back that sc'ed his vg, but i don't know what happen to him. in any case, a sc or turbo would require custom fabrication as there are no kits available for the 3rd gen.

Wiking

Dunno either, but quite likely his VGE tranny didnt take it...

"I feel most of the power of the engine at low end..."
- Thats stock. DIY the swiss cheese turbo,
and things change... ↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓

kcidmil

Okay.... each has it's good side and down side. It's been pointed out that there's no actual kit, and it's all custom fab.

Turbo- Higher spooling speed, but you gain a lot of heat. Wait for turbo to spool up.
S/C- less heat, but lower spool rate. Of course you don't have to wait as long to get full speed.

It's a toss up either way.

mtnbikeair

iTrader: (4)

I say the turbo, because nothing is cooler than driving down the road, shifting and hearing that blow off valve.

internetautomar

iTrader: (30)

you can setup a turbo so that it spools PDQ.

nismosleeper

iTrader: (11)

A turbo would be soooo much easier, all you have to do is have a welder fab up some manifolds off of an old turbo z. If you want top end power get a y pipe and go catless. That's pretty much my setup, and my power is from 3600 to 6300.

DanNY

iTrader: (14)

holy crap...

kcidmil
if you have to wait for the turbo to spool up then you have the wrong turbo size. yes given a properly trimed SC gives you power right from the start...the drag from the SC on the motor is noticed at all times. some might even say that the SC would take a little power away from the engine due to the constant load on the motor. a turbo uses the waste gas from the exhaust to spin the turbine. it's more efficient...but yes you are correct that it generates more heat since you're routing hot exhaust gases all over the place.

mtnbikeair
any boosted motor w/ an aftermarket BOV would make the sound...turbo or sc.

nismosleeper
that easy enh? pics of your setup?

nismosleeper

iTrader: (11)

Hey hey take it easy, so maybe you need an SAFC or JWT ecu and the turbo stuff, and if the engine is stock, then a fat intercooler, i'll give you pics in a month after I've done it, i go to a great muffler shop that can hook up pretty much any turbo setup.

DanNY

iTrader: (14)

so you're talking like you done it but you really haven't.

going to a great muffler shop =! easy

if you slap down $8000 i'm sure a shop will find a way to shoe horn a turbo or whatever you want in your motor...pretty easy right?

bru91

iTrader: (3)

This is the only supercharged vg i know of http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/304102

Chris91SE

iTrader: (1)

is that all? that's it to do a turbo? if that was the case everyone would have one

edit: hi dan i see you're on it

Alex_V

That looks like a hybrid, I dont have a good idea on how S/C works but I know their pincible, but i know how turbos work. It looks like he used half a turbo to make a SC, nice and compact and a great idea.

A turbo uses exaust, and not power from the motor like a SC thats why turbos have a higher HP capacity.

~Alex

DanNY

iTrader: (14)

that looks pretty cool...but where the heck does the oil go?

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

kcidmil 2/26/04, 4:40 pmyeah, that's a tight squeeze. I've been thinking of putting the new 3.5 in my 90. who needs a super or turbo when you have that engine

mtcookson

iTrader: (2)

depends on which s/c you're thinking of. if you're thinking of a centrifugal s/c go turbo. centrifugal s/c's should only be used a last resort. they have lag, they're less efficient than a turbo, they don't have peak boost until redline, etc. etc. etc.

a roots would be better than a centrifugal s/c but still not as good as a good turbo setup. also, a roots s/c being as big as they are would be a pita to fit in the maxima's engine bay.

basically what i'm getting at is:
turbos are the best route for forced induction (most efficient of the forced induction units, most potential for power output, etc.)
turbo would be easiest to get in the maxima
turbo has already been done a few times so you'll have some good information how to do it (my page is one of them - http://members.cardomain.com/mtcookson)

Alex_V

Where can I find more info on SCers? Im not going to get one just interested really.

~Alex

mtnbikeair

iTrader: (4)

www.howthingswork.com

AscendantMax

iTrader: (7)

yup that's the guy i was talking about.

VEvolution

awwright, thanks for the feedback fellas.

seems like the majority chose the turbo. im a bit disapointed tho.. I love turbos and all, but was really looking forward to researching a super charger for the VG because of its low end pull........... that really does look like quite a tight fit in that SCed VG's bay. and since the turbo would be a more efficiant means of performance(from what most of you say) it would be a waste of time to even bother with the SCer thing.

the thing that got me really into the SC, was watching how dramaticly some supercharged vehicles flew off the line at drags, and especially the way they sound.. wow, like a pshycopathic beast ready to be unleashed. i don't know, turbo just doesn't feel that way when watching from the side

btw - what are superchargers good for? from what i learned on this thread, the right turbo can do what a supercharger can + more,
thx

Slicky

Brad92SE

iTrader: (9)

The benefit of a S/C is that you have throttle response. You don't get that with a turbo, unless of course you use a really small one, but then your high end would be crap. The response would be pretty much what it is N/A, but with more power. Plus S/C's have a whine thats really cool . Of course, I'm thinking in a roots blower state of mind, I have no real experience with a centrifugal charger, i.e. Stillen's kit for the 4th gens. I imagine the throttle response would still be much better than with a turbo. You could also use a front mount intercooler with it too, but the pressure loss might be too great. Either way, a turbo would be much better to do, since rigging up a roots blower would be a hell of a lot of work, and if you are already going custom, a centrifugal wouldn't be worth the work. With the right size turbo, your car will pull hard from 3K till redline. Trust me, the lack of low end is well made up for .

On side side note, VG's handle boost very well.

subs1000w

you want the best of both worlds spray a 50 shot of nitrous with a turbo and it will spool the turbo INSTANTLY even with a big turbo

or get a 2 step which would alow for a few PSI at launch

3rdgene

finally a good answer subs100w

VEvolution

yeah, i understand what your sayin. still want that damn SCed VG
so the main reason no ones really gettin them is cause the "roots" blower is just too damn big to get in our engine bay, correct?

that supercharged VG at the link, what type of SC is it? centrifugal?

Slicky

subs1000w

yes thats a centrifugal like a vortec or paxton or procharger

you could buy a centrifugal blower off ebay for a few hundred dollars and make a braket to hold it but the biggest issue would be getting the belt lined up and tensioned so it dont slip and shred

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

1) Do you know what's involved in making a SC work properly?? It's alot harder than a turbo.
2) Don't you think it would be wise to have functioning brakes before talking about expensive one off SC applications?

VEvolution

1) nope. had no idea. im realizing that now from this interesting thread. just love the sound, and i know that they give u awesome off the line pull. i still wonder why american cars/german cars use them and japs really aren't into them. what do u think?

2) definatly do, but its always nice to talk about things and learn about them, regardless of what the rest of vehicles condition is. don't ya think so?

95turbo gxe

iTrader: (25)

Hey good find Jeff! I was going to post it if you did not. Crazy. Ok as far turbo I love it. On the insterstate I never down shift out of 5th gear as I can mash it and it will spool and then hear comes a $hit load of passing power.

subs1000w

you make it sound like turbos have no off the line pull which is wrong

i suggest you go test drive a SRT4 or WRX and you will find the car pulls off the line very nicly basicly as soon as you let off the clutch it will suck you into your seat.

mtcookson

iTrader: (2)

yeah, getting off the line is really no different in a turbo car since (most of the time) you should be revving the engine up for a good launch. if you drag race a lot chances are you'd get a setup that would allow you to spool the turbo off the line (2 step rev limiter) in which case would be the same as a supercharger off the line.

in our cars though, being fwd, i can have a hell of a time trying to get traction off the line. keep in mind that the turbo hasn't spool yet so when it does that'll decrease the traction even more. a roots supercharger would most likely make that even worse since you have nearly full boost off the line.

also, the throttle response thing seems a bit off. my maxima has awesome throttle response. you blip the throttle and it revs right up. not even my mr2 spyder can do that. granted its modified quite a bit but most people who would do a turbo setup would modify theirs the same for the throttle response (lightened flywheel being probably the best upgrade for throttle response). even with lower compression it still revs like a maniac. if i turboed the stock engine the throttle response would be even better with the slightly higher compression.

VEvolution

ok i see. so what type of cars would be good candidates for SCers?

LuckyNYC

iTrader: (2)

towing vehicles are great candidates for sc'ers.

fastflyingasian

iTrader: (1)

you wont get a roots type of blower under the hood of a vg. ve maybe. a buddy of mine was going to try to s/c his ve but he bought a focus svt instead. on the vg you will have to cut a big hole in the hood. i was thinking of remote mounting a turbo(just like a squires turbo system) but my studs on the exhaust manifold are leaking again. i already have it all planned out to do the s/c but now i just need the $$$. i already have many of the parts i need but i need to do my suspension first , again

VEvolution

when you remote mount, thats like putting it around the exhaust area right? i seen a thread on it, awhile back.

by the way, why u need to do suspension work? something wrong? or just time to replace?

fastflyingasian

iTrader: (1)

yea when you remote mount you replace the muffler with the turbo, then you run all the tubing to the front. the outlet pipe of the turbo running to the front acts as a intercooler with out actually using one, which is nice. also you dont have the same heat build up and that reduces the need for a turbo timer.

i have intrax springs with tokiko struts with suspension techniques f/r sways. from bottoming out i need a new front sway( besides the initial drop i used smaller tires for a total 3" drop) and from all the bottoming out and racing i killed the struts. so im going with eibach springs with koni struts. im tired of having my car too low, even many of the org members tell me to lift it back up lol. last year at the conn meet my car didnt even sit above the grass

VEvolution

lol, yea havin a low car sucks. gotta be very careful. so ur goin for the eibach and konis? i think i heard the best combo was the eibach and tokiko's. what dont u like about tokiko's?

mtcookson

iTrader: (2)

yeah, s/c's would be good for gasoline tow vehicles but really in the end.... s/c's are just plain outdated. the best tow vehicles out there use turbochargers. granted they're on diesel engines but that just shows that they're superior. if s/c's were superior they would be on the heavy duty tow vehicles and not turbos.

its kind of like a pushrod engine versus a dual overhead cam engine. sure the pushrod engines are still used and can make gobs of power (with gobs of displacement) but the majority of vehicles today are dohc due to their higher efficiency which is exactly what the differen is between an s/c and turbo.

a turbo is way more efficient than s/c's simply due to the fact that they aren't run on a belt, which means no parasitic losses. granted there are still losses with a turbo, its not free power, but the losses are basically just due to higher backpressure in the exhaust system. (higher backpressure makes it a bit harder for the piston to come up which is where the power drain for a turbo would come from).

also, a roots type blower is actually just that... a blower. it actually doesn't do any compressing itself. it blows air into the engine so fast that it compresses the air inside the intake manifold, which doesn't make it very thermal efficient. they actually run quite hot. a lot of roots s/c guys can gain an incredible amount of power but installing an air/water intercooler.

a screws type s/c compresses the air between the screws making it more efficient than a roots and giving it much more power potenital a la kenne bell cobra, most drag cars (john force's car for instance), etc. etc.

a centrifugal s/c is more efficient than the positive displacement superchargers but as i mentioned before suffers greatly due to its lag and no peak boost till redline. in some cases they can actually be more thermal efficient than a turbo... but you still have your parasitic losses and its greatest weakness as just said, no peak boost till redline. that is the single most killer of the centrifugal s/c.

my idea for a good centrifugal would actually be to have a cvt type pulley setup to where you have instant full boost and it keeps it there to redline. that might actually compete heavily with a turbo... but then again may not due to the parasitic losses yet again. spinning that much weight takes away some good amount of power out of the engine. with a vgt (variable geometry turbine/turbo) that basically totally takes superchargers out of the scene.

what a vgt turbo can do is change the way the exhaust flows through the turbine giving you nearly instantaneous boost off the line then adjusting the airflow to keep that boost till redline. so now you have a turbo that can spool nearly as fast as a positive displacement supercharger, has no parasitic losses, and is much more efficient than the s/c's. the more they start being used the prices will start to drop and you'll see them around on nearly everything. once they're out there... i wouldn't be surprised if they start really killing the sales of the s/c's. only the diehard s/c's enthusiasts would be left to support them (why i don't know considering it has nearly all of the benefits of a supercharger and all of the benefits of a turbo). they run anywhere between $2,000 to $4,000 or so brand new. definitely worth it though if you're looking for the absolute best setup you can get.

subs1000w

ive seen a few of the VNTs on ebay go for under 500$ and they would work size wise but the issue is controlling them since they are computer controled on the trucks they come off of and i dont know how to wire up the controler. but your right once an aftermarket VNT comes out or someone figures out how to controll a factory one the benifits will be unbelievable

mtcookson

iTrader: (2)

they make them with a valve you can controll by spinning a bolt. set the boost you want and it will automatically adjust as necessary for the best low and and high end. its actually an older design but the guy still bought it for about 2,000. the newer computer controlled ones would definitley be nice in that it'd be like having a simple boost controller... which makes me think, they should actually make a vnt/vgt turbo that has a simple boost controller-like unit that just sits right in your car, is small like most ebc's out there, and can control exactly how you want the boost to be set. now that would be awesome.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Ford has decided to use a SC for their new Cobra. Almost 500hp. Cadallic as also elected to use a SC with an intergrated after cooler for their 440hp Northstar engine.