View Poll Results: Replace Knock Sensor? or Bypass it?
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll
Replace KS or use Resistor?
Replace KS or use Resistor?
just curious to see how many of you are using the resistor to bypass the KS and how many replaced it. i also want to kno what your opinions and experiences are with both.
I miss my VE
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,553
From: NY
I hear bypass is a big no-no.
Edit: If Im not mistaken, there was a thread on this awhile back where a guy thought it was okay to bypass by advancing the timing or something like that, and using a certain type of gas. Well he learned the hard way.
Edit: If Im not mistaken, there was a thread on this awhile back where a guy thought it was okay to bypass by advancing the timing or something like that, and using a certain type of gas. Well he learned the hard way.
Originally Posted by CyMax
Does anyone know if the error code he listed for the 95 is the same for the 94-?
error codes
I would definitely replace your KS. Using a resistor is just tempting destruction of your engine.
Courtesy has the combination of KS and harness and they are usually the easiest to deal with. My stupid f-ing dealership guy argued with me that there was no such thing as a KS harness!
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,323
From: EU Scandinavia
Originally Posted by Joe Fontinyatz
I hear bypass is a big no-no.... Well he learned the hard way.
Dont listen to FairyTales, dont hear big nonos. Seek FACTS.
FSM: KS is EMERGENCY feature. Not needed if u have good gas. Vehicles have been ok last 100years without those toy piezo buzzers... my VGE last 1½yrs.
FSM page EF&EC-21 says this: "The retard system by knock sensor KS is designed only for emergencies. The basic ignition timing is pre-programmed within the anti-knocking zone. Consequently the retard system does not operate under normal driving conditions. However, if engine knocking occurs, the knock sensor monitors the condition and the signal is transmitted to the ECM. After receiving it, the ECM retards the ignition timing to avoid the knocking condition."
Well, seems that is hard to get adequate quality gas in US: ign timing has to be on par with the octane level.
I miss my VE
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,553
From: NY
Originally Posted by Wiking
Dont listen to FairyTales, dont hear big nonos. Seek FACTS.
FSM: KS is EMERGENCY feature. Not needed if u have good gas. Vehicles have been ok last 100years without those toy piezo buzzers... my VGE last 1½yrs.
FSM page EF&EC-21 says this: "The retard system by knock sensor KS is designed only for emergencies. The basic ignition timing is pre-programmed within the anti-knocking zone. Consequently the retard system does not operate under normal driving conditions. However, if engine knocking occurs, the knock sensor monitors the condition and the signal is transmitted to the ECM. After receiving it, the ECM retards the ignition timing to avoid the knocking condition."
Well, seems that is hard to get adequate quality gas in US: ign timing has to be on par with the octane level.
FSM: KS is EMERGENCY feature. Not needed if u have good gas. Vehicles have been ok last 100years without those toy piezo buzzers... my VGE last 1½yrs.
FSM page EF&EC-21 says this: "The retard system by knock sensor KS is designed only for emergencies. The basic ignition timing is pre-programmed within the anti-knocking zone. Consequently the retard system does not operate under normal driving conditions. However, if engine knocking occurs, the knock sensor monitors the condition and the signal is transmitted to the ECM. After receiving it, the ECM retards the ignition timing to avoid the knocking condition."
Well, seems that is hard to get adequate quality gas in US: ign timing has to be on par with the octane level.
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,323
From: EU Scandinavia
Originally Posted by Joe Fontinyatz
Easier to replace, don't you think?
Basic: keep engine clean, ign on par with octane. Check also plugs: verify what they should look at NGK.com.
Nissan inbuilt KS to get a global car for all octanes, millions dummies. From that perspective KS has been success, V6engines are about undestructible [global view]. From this point of view, resistor swapped car is not for blondies to fillup. Take care, like hundreds of millions of our forefathers have done
clic: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/748507/9
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 606
From: Orlando, FL
Something to think about:
Some standalone ECU's do not have knock feedback and they run closed loop operation just fine. And these engine that use Standalones are high performance and are more prone to knock due to higher loads.
On an older car such as a third gen i wouldn't even bother changing it. Make sure your O2 sensor is in good shape and run higher octane gas.
Some standalone ECU's do not have knock feedback and they run closed loop operation just fine. And these engine that use Standalones are high performance and are more prone to knock due to higher loads.
On an older car such as a third gen i wouldn't even bother changing it. Make sure your O2 sensor is in good shape and run higher octane gas.
Originally Posted by Wiking
Resistor is a lol to install. KS swap very hard & costly operation, mainly in VE. Dunno in VG, and will never know lol. Somebody has tested installing KS in VE to somewhwre else, but who is he and what are the results?
Results are here: http://mattblehm.com/pics/car/drivetrain/100_0818.JPG
I have no proof (yet) that this engine was destroyed by detonation, but I have a feeling it was.. I was running a relocated knock sensor w/ Jim Wolf ECU and 93 octane gas... in 95F heat.. when I first installed the ECU, I had a bypassed knock sensor and even at 13* BTDC timing, I could hear the engine knocking with 93 octane.
since I replaced the knock sensor, I went back to stock base timing (15* BTDC), and the pinging was inaudible, even with the relocated sensor.
problem was, that was 60F (15C) outside. the day I blew the engine, I was on the track running the engine really hard at 95F (35C). very likely there was some pinging that I didn't hear because of the tire noise, intake/exhaust noise, etc.
Do it right, or don't do it at all. If you're complaining about a $100 fix, I'd hate to see what you whine about when you get to replace an engine at $2000.
Do what you want. Don't let us that have actually experienced the downfalls of running a resistor affect you. Brad, you are crazy man 
It's not like 10+ years of carbon buildup on the chambers/heads won't raise the compression 0.5 point or so and create hot spots etc...
It's not like 10+ years of carbon buildup on the chambers/heads won't raise the compression 0.5 point or so and create hot spots etc...
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,323
From: EU Scandinavia
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
...a relocated knock sensor w/ Jim Wolf ECU and 93 octane gas... in 95F heat.. ...
Was/Is there a easy way to verify if that ECU records/responds to ping?
If only the globall warmup hoax would become true, and we would get that temp here once in a lifetime... possibly then I'd complain? Somethin else than our few days that top +25C... Now +12C ehe.
Seriously, that temp rise you speak around/above that 95F (35C) IS critical; but its also critical to oil cooling & myriad other issues incl ping.
As stated earlier, my VG (17* BTDC) and 95 octane; no KS, no knocking ever so far. I dont do racing, but have digital on/off gas pedal... Smbdy said that US93=EU95, maybe so.
I'll whine alone if engine blows, but possibly keep quiet... Still there are lots other unseen things which may blow engine: my last engine blew from fingernail -size plastic bit floating from ? oilfilter. Luckily that valve lifter noise was too bad to drive before all was destroyed (opel).
Hell, it was an Opel! you were doing the world a favor by killing it!
most people around here run 17-19* timing on their VGs and 91-93 octane fuel.
I don't know who's saying US93 = EU95, but I would think those numbers are standardized for a reason.
25-30C is also a pretty common average temp to see in the summers even in the most northern parts of the US. in the middle of the country, (TX, OK, AZ, MO, AR), 40C is a common occurence during the summer, and I've personally seen 47C on a couple of occasions. (that's 117F for you yanks that can't do the conversion).
cliffs notes: average temps in the states are higher, gas quality lower, people drive harder, advance their timing more, and pay less attention to their cars.
Thus, I consider the knock sensor an essential protection device for the engine. If not, too many people would unwittingly kill them trying to save a few $$ by skipping required maintenance like the knock sensor.
most people around here run 17-19* timing on their VGs and 91-93 octane fuel.
I don't know who's saying US93 = EU95, but I would think those numbers are standardized for a reason.
25-30C is also a pretty common average temp to see in the summers even in the most northern parts of the US. in the middle of the country, (TX, OK, AZ, MO, AR), 40C is a common occurence during the summer, and I've personally seen 47C on a couple of occasions. (that's 117F for you yanks that can't do the conversion).
cliffs notes: average temps in the states are higher, gas quality lower, people drive harder, advance their timing more, and pay less attention to their cars.
Thus, I consider the knock sensor an essential protection device for the engine. If not, too many people would unwittingly kill them trying to save a few $$ by skipping required maintenance like the knock sensor.
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,323
From: EU Scandinavia
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
Hell, it was an Opel! you were doing the world a favor by killing it!
....
Thus, I consider the knock sensor an essential protection device for the engine. If not, too many people would unwittingly kill them trying to save a few $$ by skipping required maintenance like the knock sensor.
....
Thus, I consider the knock sensor an essential protection device for the engine. If not, too many people would unwittingly kill them trying to save a few $$ by skipping required maintenance like the knock sensor.
Currently my noise insulation is on the level that I had to throw my WalMart wristwatch away [really!] 'cause I hate its dinx dinx dinx while driving... so I guess I am maybe ignorant if any ping Dangeros destroy my Moriz & Max.
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
Hell, it was an Opel! you were doing the world a favor by killing it!
most people around here run 17-19* timing on their VGs and 91-93 octane fuel.
I don't know who's saying US93 = EU95, but I would think those numbers are standardized for a reason.
25-30C is also a pretty common average temp to see in the summers even in the most northern parts of the US. in the middle of the country, (TX, OK, AZ, MO, AR), 40C is a common occurence during the summer, and I've personally seen 47C on a couple of occasions. (that's 117F for you yanks that can't do the conversion).
cliffs notes: average temps in the states are higher, gas quality lower, people drive harder, advance their timing more, and pay less attention to their cars.
Thus, I consider the knock sensor an essential protection device for the engine. If not, too many people would unwittingly kill them trying to save a few $$ by skipping required maintenance like the knock sensor.
most people around here run 17-19* timing on their VGs and 91-93 octane fuel.
I don't know who's saying US93 = EU95, but I would think those numbers are standardized for a reason.
25-30C is also a pretty common average temp to see in the summers even in the most northern parts of the US. in the middle of the country, (TX, OK, AZ, MO, AR), 40C is a common occurence during the summer, and I've personally seen 47C on a couple of occasions. (that's 117F for you yanks that can't do the conversion).
cliffs notes: average temps in the states are higher, gas quality lower, people drive harder, advance their timing more, and pay less attention to their cars.
Thus, I consider the knock sensor an essential protection device for the engine. If not, too many people would unwittingly kill them trying to save a few $$ by skipping required maintenance like the knock sensor.
Edit: Here is a nice chart: http://www.whnet.com/4x4/octane.html
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,323
From: EU Scandinavia
Originally Posted by Mizeree_X
...
Edit: Here is a nice chart: http://www.whnet.com/4x4/octane.html
Edit: Here is a nice chart: http://www.whnet.com/4x4/octane.html
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,323
From: EU Scandinavia
The 1-3 Points Why I Will NOT Install "new" 100$ KS:
1. FSM says this: Do not drop KS sensor on the floor. Dropped KS should NOT be used. (this means that the sensor I buy, will be 95% dead on arrival - seen those warehouse guys in action...)
2. The piezo toy inside the assy (unless smbdy proves otherwise) is bronze/aluminum 50 cent size 'coin' - pretensioned. This means that after 10 yr shelflife its tension is 99% gone = it is dead or almost dead: why install such sucking device into u engine.
3. After installation 'the new KS', keep on testing every week that KS -and- waiting until it dies. Why would I, should I, worry about that...
1. FSM says this: Do not drop KS sensor on the floor. Dropped KS should NOT be used. (this means that the sensor I buy, will be 95% dead on arrival - seen those warehouse guys in action...)
2. The piezo toy inside the assy (unless smbdy proves otherwise) is bronze/aluminum 50 cent size 'coin' - pretensioned. This means that after 10 yr shelflife its tension is 99% gone = it is dead or almost dead: why install such sucking device into u engine.
3. After installation 'the new KS', keep on testing every week that KS -and- waiting until it dies. Why would I, should I, worry about that...
Originally Posted by Wiking
The 1-3 Points Why I Will NOT Install "new" 100$ KS:
1. FSM says this: Do not drop KS sensor on the floor. Dropped KS should NOT be used. (this means that the sensor I buy, will be 95% dead on arrival - seen those warehouse guys in action...)
2. The piezo toy inside the assy (unless smbdy proves otherwise) is bronze/aluminum 50 cent size 'coin' - pretensioned. This means that after 10 yr shelflife its tension is 99% gone = it is dead or almost dead: why install such sucking device into u engine.
3. After installation 'the new KS', keep on testing every week that KS -and- waiting until it dies. Why would I, should I, worry about that...
1. FSM says this: Do not drop KS sensor on the floor. Dropped KS should NOT be used. (this means that the sensor I buy, will be 95% dead on arrival - seen those warehouse guys in action...)
2. The piezo toy inside the assy (unless smbdy proves otherwise) is bronze/aluminum 50 cent size 'coin' - pretensioned. This means that after 10 yr shelflife its tension is 99% gone = it is dead or almost dead: why install such sucking device into u engine.
3. After installation 'the new KS', keep on testing every week that KS -and- waiting until it dies. Why would I, should I, worry about that...
Good points. Although if the engine does happen to knock, the sensor would probably save it. If your engine is running properly though, it shouldnt knock at all. The only thing I can see where it would help is in extreme changes in temperature, octane, or altitude.
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,323
From: EU Scandinavia
Originally Posted by Brad92SE
Good points. Although if the engine does happen to knock, the sensor would probably save it. If your engine is running properly though, it shouldnt knock at all. The only thing I can see where it would help is in extreme changes in temperature, octane, or altitude.
...Yesterday did that bypAss to 1.8L ZX Citroen Aura: total dead KS on -93 model with 50k. My interpretation: Time kills the KS bronze/Alu piece piezo...
I work on 2 stroke race vehicles (a 1000cc Open mod drag sled for one) so we are very touchy when it coems down to detonation since it will destroy a $12,000 (canadian) motor on a 2stroke in seconds.
Couple other facts to look at are:
1. how many vehicles including hopped up v8s had knock sensors? if they ran lean they ran lean and most still run.
2. detonation is bad but it takes an EXTREMELY lean condition to even effect the engine in any way besides lack of power,in extreme cases it will either melt the front crown of the piston on the exhaust valve side or burn a hol ein the dead center of the piston
Extreme cases of detonation should definatly be taken care of but personaly Iw ould do the resistor swap and spend that extra $100 on a wideband O2 and a good air/fuel gauge.Also that picture of the rod through the oilpan(?) I personally have never seen an engine break a rod or hurt the crank from running any lean condition,that is unless it possibly seized the piston and that was the wakest link on the next power sequence.
BJ white
Couple other facts to look at are:
1. how many vehicles including hopped up v8s had knock sensors? if they ran lean they ran lean and most still run.
2. detonation is bad but it takes an EXTREMELY lean condition to even effect the engine in any way besides lack of power,in extreme cases it will either melt the front crown of the piston on the exhaust valve side or burn a hol ein the dead center of the piston
Extreme cases of detonation should definatly be taken care of but personaly Iw ould do the resistor swap and spend that extra $100 on a wideband O2 and a good air/fuel gauge.Also that picture of the rod through the oilpan(?) I personally have never seen an engine break a rod or hurt the crank from running any lean condition,that is unless it possibly seized the piston and that was the wakest link on the next power sequence.
BJ white
Originally Posted by Tonyklem
can somebody post a pic of where the knock sensor harness is located on a VE? thanks
the pic is about 7 pictues downfrom top of page.
Maybe you can tell that to my last VE. Detonation most likely broke one of the piston rings and I lost compression and it started smoking. But I've decided not to warn people about not running ks anymore. Live and learn. 10:1 compression + no KS = not a good idea.
Originally Posted by MrSector9
I work on 2 stroke race vehicles (a 1000cc Open mod drag sled for one) so we are very touchy when it coems down to detonation since it will destroy a $12,000 (canadian) motor on a 2stroke in seconds.
Couple other facts to look at are:
1. how many vehicles including hopped up v8s had knock sensors? if they ran lean they ran lean and most still run.
2. detonation is bad but it takes an EXTREMELY lean condition to even effect the engine in any way besides lack of power,in extreme cases it will either melt the front crown of the piston on the exhaust valve side or burn a hol ein the dead center of the piston
Extreme cases of detonation should definatly be taken care of but personaly Iw ould do the resistor swap and spend that extra $100 on a wideband O2 and a good air/fuel gauge.Also that picture of the rod through the oilpan(?) I personally have never seen an engine break a rod or hurt the crank from running any lean condition,that is unless it possibly seized the piston and that was the wakest link on the next power sequence.
BJ white
Couple other facts to look at are:
1. how many vehicles including hopped up v8s had knock sensors? if they ran lean they ran lean and most still run.
2. detonation is bad but it takes an EXTREMELY lean condition to even effect the engine in any way besides lack of power,in extreme cases it will either melt the front crown of the piston on the exhaust valve side or burn a hol ein the dead center of the piston
Extreme cases of detonation should definatly be taken care of but personaly Iw ould do the resistor swap and spend that extra $100 on a wideband O2 and a good air/fuel gauge.Also that picture of the rod through the oilpan(?) I personally have never seen an engine break a rod or hurt the crank from running any lean condition,that is unless it possibly seized the piston and that was the wakest link on the next power sequence.
BJ white
Originally Posted by Jeff92se
Maybe you can tell that to my last VE. Detonation most likely broke one of the piston rings and I lost compression and it started smoking. But I've decided not to warn people about not running ks anymore. Live and learn. 10:1 compression + no KS = not a good idea.
I miss my VE
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,553
From: NY
Originally Posted by MrGone
no one listens, oh well, atleast we wont have to do the work
Originally Posted by Joe Fontinyatz
Don't worry. They'll get it eventually once the hood falls on their head since it's the same people who don't believe in replacing hood struts
i just put the resistor in and i didnt notice any difference... i probably got the wrong one lol. i got a pack of 470 kohm and i put one of them in the harness leading to the ECU. lemme kno if i did something wrong. i saw one writeup where they used 2 500 kohm i think...
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,323
From: EU Scandinavia
Originally Posted by Tonyklem
i just put the resistor in and i didnt notice any difference... i probably got the wrong one lol. i got a pack of 470 kohm and i put one of them in the harness leading to the ECU. lemme kno if i did something wrong. i saw one writeup where they used 2 500 kohm i think...
a. Maybe your KS was/is ok; then ign timing is ok WITH KS -or- WITH R.
b. You have been just idling...
c. Unplug KS: if still no change, either you -or- ECU is malfunctioning...
- So if u have functional harness and 470kOhm resistor, all is fine. ...You may still want to measure and verify the actual R from ECU connector....
- Not 2.5mega ohms! But anythin between 1kohm to 0.5M ohm will pull the A/D down (or up) and cause the KS -register bit to be 0 (or 1). As the contents of registers are continously read, ECU ign retard -loop will be executed based on contents of this register. [No info of ECU internals is given, thereby 0/1 -state is guesswork]
x1000:
Kilo 1000
Mega 1000 000
Giga 1000 000 000
Tera 1000 000 000 000
Peta 1000 000 000 000 000
Exa 1000 000 000 000 000 000
Zetta 1000 000 000 000 000 000 000
Yotta 1000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000
...one site explaining 000 -life: http://whatis.techtarget.com/definit...499008,00.html
ohm: The ohm is the standard unit of electrical resistance in the International System of Units (SI).
...one webpage explaining what oh is the Ohm:
http://whatis.techtarget.com/definit...531078,00.html
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,114
From: Ontario, Canada
There was my posting two weeks ago or so about my flex section repair and knocking that followed. Read the whole story now:
My flex section has been repaire and I was driving home. The first little hill I came acrossed welcomed me with nice loud pinging when I hit the gas and started accelerating from ~30kmh to 60kmh. The next day same thing happened under the same circumstances. That's when I posted and asked if I should have retarded my timing, which was still at 20°. But I ended up never retarding it, because pinging gradually disappeared. Nothing has changed in the car: same ignition, same gasoline. The new flex section has routed all exhaust gases thru the O2 sensor, which reported reach mixture and the ECU has made it leaner. The leaner mixture detonates easier than reach. The knock sensor reported pinging to the ECU, which has retared timing over time and with a few advancements and retardings it found new ignition timing, where it stays now.
I vote for replacement of KS with a new one, after thoroughly testing the harness with the Ohm meter to eliminate any possibiliy of open circuit and reading the KS codes from the ECU. IIRC there may only be a code if the KS circuit is open.
My flex section has been repaire and I was driving home. The first little hill I came acrossed welcomed me with nice loud pinging when I hit the gas and started accelerating from ~30kmh to 60kmh. The next day same thing happened under the same circumstances. That's when I posted and asked if I should have retarded my timing, which was still at 20°. But I ended up never retarding it, because pinging gradually disappeared. Nothing has changed in the car: same ignition, same gasoline. The new flex section has routed all exhaust gases thru the O2 sensor, which reported reach mixture and the ECU has made it leaner. The leaner mixture detonates easier than reach. The knock sensor reported pinging to the ECU, which has retared timing over time and with a few advancements and retardings it found new ignition timing, where it stays now.
I vote for replacement of KS with a new one, after thoroughly testing the harness with the Ohm meter to eliminate any possibiliy of open circuit and reading the KS codes from the ECU. IIRC there may only be a code if the KS circuit is open.
Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 27
This is typical of maxipad owners, 90% of you guys are cheap asses.
I replaced the sensor on my old VE, it ran like a bat out of hell after that, needless to say fuel consumption improved substantially (alot).
It was expensive, but it was worth it.
You get what you pay for.
I replaced the sensor on my old VE, it ran like a bat out of hell after that, needless to say fuel consumption improved substantially (alot).
It was expensive, but it was worth it.
You get what you pay for.
Mine is bypassed but I also just installed a SAFC II that I had left over from a prior car. If it starts to knock at all I can just up the fuel mixture in the RPM band that it is knocking in and the problem is solved.
My opinion is that this is my first car with a KS in it, and I've never had a lick of problems in the past even with cars that are much, much stronger than the maxima. It's all about being able to control the fuel mixture and with the SAFC II, I can do just that.
My opinion is that this is my first car with a KS in it, and I've never had a lick of problems in the past even with cars that are much, much stronger than the maxima. It's all about being able to control the fuel mixture and with the SAFC II, I can do just that.