Rust
03-14-2008, 07:58 PM
#1
Rust
Alright, so I've had some rust on the rear driver side wheel well before, but this winter seemed to do a number on it. Now I actually have some gaping holes there. A year ago I patched the one above the wheel well with some body filler, but as you can see, that didn't work too well. My only solution now is welding. I have enough experience with gas, MIG, and arc welding, but mostly on a 1/4'' metal and not on a car body. At the moment I don't own any welders, but I can easily get my hands on an arc welder. Here are the pics of the rust holes. Any advice on how to patch them up would be greatly appreciated.
03-14-2008, 08:06 PM
#2
dude, from what i hear, an arc welder is crap for sheet metal. see if you can get one of the others.
the body filler held in the rust, and allowed it to "grow" more than if it were left untreated. the best thing to do is cut the cancer out completely, past the rust into good metal. the rocker pannel would be easiest, because it will not be seen as much, and any possilbe distortion of the metal from welding/heat will be unnoticed.
the fender will be hardest.
if only that were a front fender, id say replace it, paint it. depending on how much a front fender costs in your area, you may consider getting one, if its the same gauge as where the other places need patching. it should have the right shape as the patch needed in the top pic with enough scrap left over for the other spots.
the body filler held in the rust, and allowed it to "grow" more than if it were left untreated. the best thing to do is cut the cancer out completely, past the rust into good metal. the rocker pannel would be easiest, because it will not be seen as much, and any possilbe distortion of the metal from welding/heat will be unnoticed.
the fender will be hardest.
if only that were a front fender, id say replace it, paint it. depending on how much a front fender costs in your area, you may consider getting one, if its the same gauge as where the other places need patching. it should have the right shape as the patch needed in the top pic with enough scrap left over for the other spots.
03-14-2008, 09:10 PM
#3
I donno if I can get MIG, but would oxyacetylene gas welder work? Also, I heard that reversing polarity on the arc welder would give it much less penetration, which is good for thin metal, but I'll have to look into that. But what about the shape of a patch for that hole above the wheel well? Should I just cut it out as a square? Well, anyhow, that's the last time I use body filler.
03-14-2008, 09:53 PM
#4
I donno if I can get MIG, but would oxyacetylene gas welder work? Also, I heard that reversing polarity on the arc welder would give it much less penetration, which is good for thin metal, but I'll have to look into that. But what about the shape of a patch for that hole above the wheel well? Should I just cut it out as a square? Well, anyhow, that's the last time I use body filler.
Sheet metal= Mig
03-15-2008, 02:13 AM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: EU Scandinavia
Posts: 4,323
Whatever is done, rust will pop out next year. Contrast that with: "Oily iron never rusts."
After welding the patches, do 'some' spray, check this page
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/748507/17
After welding the patches, do 'some' spray, check this page
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/748507/17
03-15-2008, 09:35 AM
#7
Alright, so I've had some rust on the rear driver side wheel well before, but this winter seemed to do a number on it. Now I actually have some gaping holes there. A year ago I patched the one above the wheel well with some body filler, but as you can see, that didn't work too well. My only solution now is welding. I have enough experience with gas, MIG, and arc welding, but mostly on a 1/4'' metal and not on a car body. At the moment I don't own any welders, but I can easily get my hands on an arc welder. Here are the pics of the rust holes. Any advice on how to patch them up would be greatly appreciated.
No matter what amount of rust you THINK you have, you can pretty much double it and call it a conservative estimate.
In order to effectivly remove rust you have to cut it ALL out. That includes inner panels as well as outer panels. You may be able to buy new fenders or quarters, but patches for the inner panels you'll have to make.
As for welding, body work requires a good MIG or TIG welder. OX/Acy is not gonna cut it because it will require to much heat to get good, grindable penatration. Which brings up another point. You'll need access to an exremely good air compressor (read large capacity) to drive the grinders and die grinders you'll need to dress the welds. Your looking at a couple hundred dollars in welding & dressing materials alone to fix that much rust. That's not including replacement panels, filler, paint, etc. Oh, and BTW, your time.
Bottom line is drive your car as is. Every month you can do so, put a car payment in the bank. Save up until you can buy a car (perferably from outside the rust belt). You could even buy another Gen3 Max if you want. But the one you have looks to have terminal cancer. Let it pass.
03-15-2008, 10:39 AM
#8
Whatever is done, rust will pop out next year. Contrast that with: "Oily iron never rusts."
After welding the patches, do 'some' spray, check this page
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/748507/17
After welding the patches, do 'some' spray, check this page
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/748507/17
I've lived in various parts of MI for nearly 40 years (now in NashVegas, TN). One thing I learned is that rust is insidiuous. It is like a cancer. The only way to really beat it, is to never get it.
No matter what amount of rust you THINK you have, you can pretty much double it and call it a conservative estimate.
In order to effectivly remove rust you have to cut it ALL out. That includes inner panels as well as outer panels. You may be able to buy new fenders or quarters, but patches for the inner panels you'll have to make.
As for welding, body work requires a good MIG or TIG welder. OX/Acy is not gonna cut it because it will require to much heat to get good, grindable penatration. Which brings up another point. You'll need access to an exremely good air compressor (read large capacity) to drive the grinders and die grinders you'll need to dress the welds. Your looking at a couple hundred dollars in welding & dressing materials alone to fix that much rust. That's not including replacement panels, filler, paint, etc. Oh, and BTW, your time.
Bottom line is drive your car as is. Every month you can do so, put a car payment in the bank. Save up until you can buy a car (perferably from outside the rust belt). You could even buy another Gen3 Max if you want. But the one you have looks to have terminal cancer. Let it pass.
No matter what amount of rust you THINK you have, you can pretty much double it and call it a conservative estimate.
In order to effectivly remove rust you have to cut it ALL out. That includes inner panels as well as outer panels. You may be able to buy new fenders or quarters, but patches for the inner panels you'll have to make.
As for welding, body work requires a good MIG or TIG welder. OX/Acy is not gonna cut it because it will require to much heat to get good, grindable penatration. Which brings up another point. You'll need access to an exremely good air compressor (read large capacity) to drive the grinders and die grinders you'll need to dress the welds. Your looking at a couple hundred dollars in welding & dressing materials alone to fix that much rust. That's not including replacement panels, filler, paint, etc. Oh, and BTW, your time.
Bottom line is drive your car as is. Every month you can do so, put a car payment in the bank. Save up until you can buy a car (perferably from outside the rust belt). You could even buy another Gen3 Max if you want. But the one you have looks to have terminal cancer. Let it pass.
03-15-2008, 11:16 AM
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: EU Scandinavia
Posts: 4,323
The issue lies what is now unseen - as shoult indicated. Typically a Nissan with those rust problems in the pic, has wheel wells rusted through, seat belts about to drop on the street, drivers side strut assy swinging in the wind, fuel fillerpipe with holes ... But if theres a mig and time - its cheap to patch. Note: for the wheel well there is a lifetime US-warranty.
My son had just that problem you face. Welded all... bought a cheap spare Nissan with a plastic body-set to hide fender patches etc...
However, before starting try figure all the costs coming next 5yrs - sometimes its cheaper to swap vehicle even with a small loan.
The oil shower will stop all rust immediately. Wheel wells and other parts in direct dirt shower need smtg extra...
My son had just that problem you face. Welded all... bought a cheap spare Nissan with a plastic body-set to hide fender patches etc...
However, before starting try figure all the costs coming next 5yrs - sometimes its cheaper to swap vehicle even with a small loan.
The oil shower will stop all rust immediately. Wheel wells and other parts in direct dirt shower need smtg extra...
03-15-2008, 11:29 AM
#10
As far holding it off, as you've already found out you can cover over it and make it pretty. It WILL be back, and worse. If you're going to go through the trouble to remove metal and try and take care of the problem them do it right. Half-*ssed attempts to get rid of rust will get you short lived results. Been there, done that, got the t-shirts and scars to prove it.
The idea of just putting a car payment a month (or whatever you can) in the bank is especially important for someone facing a car that may be becoming structurally compromised and has limited monies.
But it's your decision. You can spend your limited resources trying to combat the rust as long as possible, or you can try to get a headstart on something without rust. If you had a blown engine or something mechanical wrong, but with a good rust free body I'd be more inclined to tell you go for it and fix it.
03-15-2008, 12:07 PM
#11
Well, you don't say? I never knew that.
Alright, I get what you're saying. The problem with me, and probably most people is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Until it's too late. But then, as you said, here in the midwest, rust is an epidemic. I've seen people drive cars so bad that you could literally see the asphalt under the pedals. Stuff like that usually just gets covered with a floor mat. Like if you can't see it, it's not there. But we'll see how it goes. Maybe a new car isn't such a bad idea.
Heat and speed. Electric grinders don't dissapate the heat as well as air powered grinder. As far as die grinders? I've seen very few electric ones and I haven't seen one that was worth a crap for body work. Remember, we're talking about HOURS of continual use.
As far holding it off, as you've already found out you can cover over it and make it pretty. It WILL be back, and worse. If you're going to go through the trouble to remove metal and try and take care of the problem them do it right. Half-*ssed attempts to get rid of rust will get you short lived results. Been there, done that, got the t-shirts and scars to prove it.
The idea of just putting a car payment a month (or whatever you can) in the bank is especially important for someone facing a car that may be becoming structurally compromised and has limited monies.
But it's your decision. You can spend your limited resources trying to combat the rust as long as possible, or you can try to get a headstart on something without rust. If you had a blown engine or something mechanical wrong, but with a good rust free body I'd be more inclined to tell you go for it and fix it.
As far holding it off, as you've already found out you can cover over it and make it pretty. It WILL be back, and worse. If you're going to go through the trouble to remove metal and try and take care of the problem them do it right. Half-*ssed attempts to get rid of rust will get you short lived results. Been there, done that, got the t-shirts and scars to prove it.
The idea of just putting a car payment a month (or whatever you can) in the bank is especially important for someone facing a car that may be becoming structurally compromised and has limited monies.
But it's your decision. You can spend your limited resources trying to combat the rust as long as possible, or you can try to get a headstart on something without rust. If you had a blown engine or something mechanical wrong, but with a good rust free body I'd be more inclined to tell you go for it and fix it.
03-15-2008, 12:26 PM
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: EU Scandinavia
Posts: 4,323
There is, some limits of course ... I dont know but check this:
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/1146109
If you are not in love with the current vehicle [dangerous] make that 5yr plan. Check the wheel wells, thinkabout axleboots, shocks exhaust etc...Calculate what u probably have to put in to keep this rolling, then compare something better available with 5yr scope. There might be a very cheap, low mileage maxima with tranny, engine or whatever just broken... that u may swap. Compare. Anyhow the 5yr plan is sound with tight budget. Whatever u do, put the money into a vehicle that will last that 5yrs. Your work has always value, dont be pessimistic about that.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/1146109
If you are not in love with the current vehicle [dangerous] make that 5yr plan. Check the wheel wells, thinkabout axleboots, shocks exhaust etc...Calculate what u probably have to put in to keep this rolling, then compare something better available with 5yr scope. There might be a very cheap, low mileage maxima with tranny, engine or whatever just broken... that u may swap. Compare. Anyhow the 5yr plan is sound with tight budget. Whatever u do, put the money into a vehicle that will last that 5yrs. Your work has always value, dont be pessimistic about that.
Last edited by Wiking; 03-15-2008 at 12:32 PM.
03-15-2008, 02:24 PM
#13
Well, you don't say? I never knew that.
Alright, I get what you're saying. The problem with me, and probably most people is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Until it's too late. But then, as you said, here in the midwest, rust is an epidemic. I've seen people drive cars so bad that you could literally see the asphalt under the pedals. Stuff like that usually just gets covered with a floor mat. Like if you can't see it, it's not there. But we'll see how it goes. Maybe a new car isn't such a bad idea.
Alright, I get what you're saying. The problem with me, and probably most people is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Until it's too late. But then, as you said, here in the midwest, rust is an epidemic. I've seen people drive cars so bad that you could literally see the asphalt under the pedals. Stuff like that usually just gets covered with a floor mat. Like if you can't see it, it's not there. But we'll see how it goes. Maybe a new car isn't such a bad idea.
)
03-15-2008, 03:35 PM
#14
I would like to see the number 3rd gen maximas left with NO rust at all. There has to be some way to fix it. Yes, that car has a little more rust than most would like to deal with, but on this forum, someone gets a paint bubble and is told to ditch the car. Yes, rustproofing is the best way to deal with it, but it can't be impossible to fix rust. If it was impossible, cars from the 60's would not still be around. Sure it takes work and money, but if we all dumped maxima's because of a paint bubble, there wouldn't be many left...
03-15-2008, 03:36 PM
#15
There is, some limits of course ... I dont know but check this:
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/1146109
If you are not in love with the current vehicle [dangerous] make that 5yr plan. Check the wheel wells, thinkabout axleboots, shocks exhaust etc...Calculate what u probably have to put in to keep this rolling, then compare something better available with 5yr scope. There might be a very cheap, low mileage maxima with tranny, engine or whatever just broken... that u may swap. Compare. Anyhow the 5yr plan is sound with tight budget. Whatever u do, put the money into a vehicle that will last that 5yrs. Your work has always value, dont be pessimistic about that.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/1146109
If you are not in love with the current vehicle [dangerous] make that 5yr plan. Check the wheel wells, thinkabout axleboots, shocks exhaust etc...Calculate what u probably have to put in to keep this rolling, then compare something better available with 5yr scope. There might be a very cheap, low mileage maxima with tranny, engine or whatever just broken... that u may swap. Compare. Anyhow the 5yr plan is sound with tight budget. Whatever u do, put the money into a vehicle that will last that 5yrs. Your work has always value, dont be pessimistic about that.
03-15-2008, 04:23 PM
#16
I would like to see the number 3rd gen maximas left with NO rust at all. There has to be some way to fix it. Yes, that car has a little more rust than most would like to deal with, but on this forum, someone gets a paint bubble and is told to ditch the car. Yes, rustproofing is the best way to deal with it, but it can't be impossible to fix rust. If it was impossible, cars from the 60's would not still be around. Sure it takes work and money, but if we all dumped maxima's because of a paint bubble, there wouldn't be many left...
Mine is rust-free and has over 250K miles. Never seen the salt either.
03-15-2008, 04:32 PM
#17
Yes, if the rust is within 1 cm of the seat belts anchors (i think) they have to cut out and replace the metal due to the safety compromizations (is that even a word?). If its not within 1 cm they will just add a support brace or some bs. Iv ebeen reading a couple threads about this (search) and it seems theyll buy your car back if it costs more to fix it than its worth too. Either way they have to fix the rust or buy your car, and if they buy it they have o give ur fair market value, altho you'll most likely spend months haggling with them. I also live in the midwest (chicago) and have a great extremely reliable 3rd gen, but i have much more rust than you I know i have a good amount of rust by the seat belt anchor since it basically moves if u push it, and ive been contemplating going to the dealer to get it fixed/bought but i dont want to spend months arguing with the dealer but when it gets warmer i think il go for it. The recall applies to any 3rd gen, 89-94, not only specific vins like theyll try to tell you. Its a lifetime, unlimited mileage recall.
I know i have a good amount of rust by the seat belt anchor since it basically moves if u push it, and ive been contemplating going to the dealer to get it fixed/bought but i dont want to spend months arguing with the dealer but when it gets warmer i think il go for it. The recall applies to any 3rd gen, 89-94, not only specific vins like theyll try to tell you. Its a lifetime, unlimited mileage recall.
03-15-2008, 04:47 PM
#18
I would like to see the number 3rd gen maximas left with NO rust at all. There has to be some way to fix it. Yes, that car has a little more rust than most would like to deal with, but on this forum, someone gets a paint bubble and is told to ditch the car. Yes, rustproofing is the best way to deal with it, but it can't be impossible to fix rust. If it was impossible, cars from the 60's would not still be around. Sure it takes work and money, but if we all dumped maxima's because of a paint bubble, there wouldn't be many left...
There IS a way to deal with rust. It takes time and money. LOTS of both. You have to remove ALL the afflicted metal and replace it with new, weld, grind, fill, prime and paint. Done right it can look better then new and never rust again. Done wrong or half-*ssed it'll look bad or worse, you'll have only covered it up and it will return with a vengence.
When you try to patch up a rusty car the right way, you quickly come to the realization that rust, much like an iceberg only reveals a small portion of itself. The rest is hidden, waiting to bite your hind end. For example, that little rust spot above the wheel well in the original picture will proably require removing a 4-6" wide strip (maybe more depending on what you find) all the way around the wheel well. You also need to rebuild the inner fender wheel, parts of the rocker inner and out panels, probably the entire bottom of the rear fender and inner.... and it never ends.
I wasn't saying abandon the car. I WAS saying that he should enjoy driving this car while he saves for another. He could EAISLY sink $1000 into repairing the VISIBLE rust that he's shown us. That doesn't even include finish paint work. That $1000 would go a LONG way to finding a better, rust free car, even a better example of a Gen3 Maxima.
BTW, with 50s & 60s vehicles selling for $20K to $1.5M it is MUCH easier to justify the time and money to repair the rust. But you can buy a low mileage, rust free, SE, 5spd for WAY less then $20K if you look. I've seen restoration shops replace almost every panel except the VIN plate on a supossedly "solid" car.
03-15-2008, 05:08 PM
#19
If the only area(s) you have that are rusted are the ones in the picture, it could be worth doing the work.
If there is a lot more,then what these guys are telling you is sound advice. Unless you are deeply attached to your car, or it holds some sentimental value, it is not worth the money to fix. I bought a completely rust free '90SE with high miles for $1500. If yours is mechanically sound, you should be able to find a similar deal, or even better for a non running shell. Then spend your time on swapping drivetrain. You will be much better off in the end.
If there is a lot more,then what these guys are telling you is sound advice. Unless you are deeply attached to your car, or it holds some sentimental value, it is not worth the money to fix. I bought a completely rust free '90SE with high miles for $1500. If yours is mechanically sound, you should be able to find a similar deal, or even better for a non running shell. Then spend your time on swapping drivetrain. You will be much better off in the end.
Last edited by jonmandude; 03-15-2008 at 05:11 PM.
03-15-2008, 11:52 PM
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: EU Scandinavia
Posts: 4,323
Check the wheel wells, take bright light, peek under upholstery... T-here was a long thread where mr 'Don Quixote' (who ? was he, mem fails) went through the exercise against fortress Nissan. Where is it now? ... anyways with patience you may get it fixed or some compensation. Take the money (if any) and DIY; it is costly affair to repair it decently. However, its under upholstery and I think there is no need to show it around - just weld enough add on scrap metal.
I am not pushing anybody to any direction but to do just what you suggested: 5yr plan... and that starts from evaluation. You may weld the chassis and it can serve for decades (oiled). The outside paint I have not never seen one used vehicle which will not start flowering during 1-2 yrs after most pro surface job. Rust just wont stay idle... This is because in micro level there always will be left some cavities (=moisture nests). Always means all ways... These cavities will become under enormous forces sun baking, winter freezing and whatever bumping, kicking... and burst, maybe first unseen, next...
Best job I got was with my 11½feet high RV: sandblasted the whole 6ton elephant, bought/sprayed most expensive primers, then the top ten feet stayed ok for 10 yrs... on the places that had never been welded and/or not had seams.
I am not pushing anybody to any direction but to do just what you suggested: 5yr plan... and that starts from evaluation. You may weld the chassis and it can serve for decades (oiled). The outside paint I have not never seen one used vehicle which will not start flowering during 1-2 yrs after most pro surface job. Rust just wont stay idle... This is because in micro level there always will be left some cavities (=moisture nests). Always means all ways... These cavities will become under enormous forces sun baking, winter freezing and whatever bumping, kicking... and burst, maybe first unseen, next...
Best job I got was with my 11½feet high RV: sandblasted the whole 6ton elephant, bought/sprayed most expensive primers, then the top ten feet stayed ok for 10 yrs... on the places that had never been welded and/or not had seams.
03-16-2008, 06:43 AM
#24
03-16-2008, 03:18 PM
#25
I used this stuff on my rocker panels(under rear doors) after i cut out all the rust spots, just built up the holes with it, let dry, sand smooth and paint.
03-16-2008, 03:44 PM
#26
But we both live in an area where you can pretty much leave bare metal out and it will only surface rust after two years. Geography has a GREAT deal to do with things here. Do the same thing on a car in GR MI (part of the rust belt) and it'll spit that patch out in a year or so.
03-16-2008, 03:57 PM
#27
But we both live in an area where you can pretty much leave bare metal out and it will only surface rust after two years. Geography has a GREAT deal to do with things here. Do the same thing on a car in GR MI (part of the rust belt) and it'll spit that patch out in a year or so.
, then look for another car..I simply gave him a better option that will last longer then his idea, and look a little better.
03-16-2008, 07:36 PM
#28
I realize this stuff will not last forever, especially in the northern states, but if you red the op's last post, he said he was planning on stuffing some bathroom caulk in the hole, then look for another car..I simply gave him a better option that will last longer then his idea, and look a little better.
, then look for another car..I simply gave him a better option that will last longer then his idea, and look a little better.
03-17-2008, 06:41 AM
#29
03-17-2008, 12:51 PM
#30
03-17-2008, 02:34 PM
#31
03-17-2008, 03:49 PM
#32
03-17-2008, 03:57 PM
#33
03-17-2008, 04:15 PM
#35
It took space in my garage, so after I removed the tranny (which was the only part I really needed at the time that I bought it), I butchered that thing, keeping the engine, rear disk breakes, and a whole bunch of small stuff like window motors, sunroof, electronics, wheels, interior, etc. The picture is of how it looked a week before I chopped it up and drove it to the scrap metal facility.
04-16-2008, 02:17 PM
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,042
hey deridex and everyone else....you see that rust by the front strut assembly?
i've been the the junkyard and seen a few of those where it rots out there was even one where there's a long crack.
makes me wonder bout mines....
does anyone know if thats a recall and does anyone have the crack/rotout around that area...
i've been the the junkyard and seen a few of those where it rots out there was even one where there's a long crack.
makes me wonder bout mines....
does anyone know if thats a recall and does anyone have the crack/rotout around that area...
04-16-2008, 07:31 PM
#39
oddly enough rusted out strut towers do not qualify for a recall.
if they did, chrysler would be in deep doodoo. the 96-07 caravans have been known to rust out within a couple of years.
if they did, chrysler would be in deep doodoo. the 96-07 caravans have been known to rust out within a couple of years.