What Would Wait in the horizon, if ECU pin 43 would go high at WOT, over 3k rpm ... low loss / maximized air intake.

[simultaneous multiport injection EF&EC-19]

 

hmm....yep. you have always had a special way of confusing the crap out of me

what, specifically, is pin 43 used for? and how could one make it "go high"?

 

Jumper.

pls .read. [simultaneous multiport injection EF&EC-19]

GND = low
+12V = high

ECU pins, peek here...
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/748507/15

I am not giving an answer. I am asking. One has to study, not to be fed - or just know the issue as own pockets to be able to answer.

 

I have no idea what's going on.


Isn't pin 43 the diagnostic check at startup that gives the "all ok" to the starter?

 

Starter activates via ign sw. Starter itself is not directly affected by this signal...

However, this signal is true during [simultaneous multiport injection EF&EC-19]

Thus, I am asking if ECU was dumb enough to apply [simultaneous multiport injection] when this signal is pulled up, say at 3k rpm? Would give a nice blk boost?

 

I don't now man.

If I had to design that starting system I would disable exactly this simultaneous multi port injection soon as revs reach something like 1000rpm (to me 1000rpm would indicate that the ignition and fuel system is able to make the motor run) .................. is this perhaps currently the case with the Max too?

If I had to design the ignition system I would also ensure no ignition advance while starting - if you now switch to simultaneous injection mode you may force the motor to drop all advance that may be required based on MAF/temp/speed measurements - is this perhaps the case on the Max currently?

Also - while you may be able force simultaneous injection mode (perhaps?) via that pin, you may very well find that the simultaneous pulse's duration to be limited to some low value by design so that it can prevent flooding in normal starting conditions - if you now switch to that mode during high power engine operation you may find that although you have simultaneous injection happening, the total amount of fuel delivered is fixed at a volume way lower than what the power operation requires .................. ie - switching to simultaneous injection this way gets you a drop in power/stumble at exactly the point where you need/want/expect more.


Guess if you want to know what will be the result of your suggested mod you will have to experiment and then report back here

 

Used to volunteer...

There is a chance the factory project name for the pin43 was [simultaneous multiport injection ON/OFF]

 

In which case your report will be short and sweet - ie - "This is a sure way to get all you can out of the motor"

 

...or to clog BMW windscreen & filters - and win.

 

lol, i was lost as to what was going on....and was only trying to find myself on the same page as you. but..i'm still, not suprisingly, lost

 

I try my best to guide the lost, but some cant, some wont, some just refuse to hear. Sometimes its it good to rely on readers self-responsibility to seek... Those who wont, will stay lost ... The biggest sieve of humankind.

Well, this issue I deliberately made as hard as FSM...

 

i'll catch up soon, i'm sure.....but i've never done any research or anything involving the ECU whatsoever.....yet

 

Hey, u took the challenge

The pin is ↑up↑ at least during startup ---> Causing [simultaneous multiport injection EF&EC-19]

I am interested if this feature could be leashed out also on purpose, on some other convenient brief seconds... The ECU might just be stupid enough.

Tst implementation either by inserting +12V to that pin at convenient time, thus pull it up (like ign key sw does at startup) -or- take starter solenoid out as engine is running, and then use ign key at say 3000rpm. Caution & Co: Tester is responsible of all his/her deeds...

 

so do you suspect some sort of power or efficiency gains, or is this strictly "just to see what happens"?

 

All pwr comes from burned gas. If air is plentiful [=non stock], then getting momentary "2s" overdose would not hurt. I'll check someday this multiport issue with my rust bucket, at the moment nogo...

My goal is to figure out how to wake up sleepin WOT horses by any non$ means. I've heard em snoring, so I am certain they exist...

 

so basically you want to find a way to cheaply unlock the higher RPM power that the VE owners enjoy, amirite? I think that a wideband 02 sensor that is just hooked to a display (not tied to ECU at all) for driver monitoring would be a good tool to have here. The closer to 14.7 you can get, the more power you can make. So i think the billing here is to tame the rowdiness of closed-loop WOT. If it goes rich and sticks to a set mapping at closed loop WOT.. then maybe reduce fuel pressure by a half a PSI or so until the AFR comes back to normal... and the closed loop status will figure itself out when the 02 sensor fixes your afr. If fuel pressure is low it'll bump up the pulse durations. But once it stops adjusting at WOT/closed loop, you'll have to match it yourself.

1 problem i see with this: open loop during warmup will be starved for gas. Maybe use a solenoid or something to control the FPR manually? Or by RPM switch? Or something?

 

- VE? eh. My veggie is currently far above -and- w/o clacking valves. My goal is humble, just to double the stock VG N/A hp ...just a mind game.
- Why would going dirty over 14.7 hurt? Be dirty and just pump in using all capacity there is... All non burnt leftover would be the problem of BMW filters ...I am speaking of utilization at brief WOT.
- after that experience, back up little by little until max gain vs. blk smoke has been materialized. That could be done by pulsing - if the signal works like that.
- My guess its always open loop after 3-3.5k rpm.

 

running mad-rich doesn't really add power... you can only make as much power as you have air for, and you can only make as much power as you have gas for. adding extra of either won't make more power. if you've ever run an lawn mower around the yard in "choke" you'll notice that you don't really have a whole lot of power..

best option of course is to properly tune the ECU for best possible output, but next best thing to that is general tuning.. i just don't get how dumping a profuse amount of fuel into the cylinders will help anything.


and was the majority of your added power coming from the intake smoothing you did? or something else that you're keeping a secret? i've seen where you said you have 230BHP, from 160BHP stock, and a 0-60mph of 7.0s

 

For some reason there is lots more air... and my guess (?) is that on some point not enough fuel. In this kind of situation there is a window of opportunity. Just an idiot way to make sure theres enough fuel... Yes, there is the right way to do things, this is the wrong way (at least when money speaks). To buy tunable ECU etc widgets would surely get neat results. I am speaking here no $$.

Yes, choke chokes. Doesnt apply here as chokes were thrown to sea... Tuning is not new to me... (but, no turbos in my life)

The hp is a guess - just butt dyno If this size vehicle gets 7s 100km/h, then power has to be there. Had briefly a T80 volvo A/T, gets 6 sec with 280hp.

 

with your intake you may have too much air... but are you SURE that a stock VG doesn't go rich in WOT open loop? I could have sworn that someone with a wideband told me that it always went rich (like 11 or so) at WOT open loop. Not to nag but do you have proof that there is too much air? And if there were too much air, wouldn't the MAF read the air and give it fuel accordingly? I'm looking for some input here from anyone that runs 1/4 miles and has a wideband O2 monitor. Aaron has one, but he has a VE so the ECU tuning is different, not to mention eleventybillion other differences between VG and VE.

 

I dont know - in such case theres no use giving more. Testing briefly with injecting more, wont harm ... here I am mapping if smbdy here knows about that stock ECU feature.

"someone ...wideband"... but was that stock N/A intake?

No proof. The accel time tells there is 'some' real change... I wont buy/have real equipment, so such empirical test may produce smtg. Or may not.

I guess MAF is already topped out at 4k? ... and then ECU relies on the std map with std airflow estimate?

 

i was pretty sure the MAF was relied on 100% of the time. b/c when you get to 4000rpm and you use more or less throttle, at more or less RPM, then the ECU won't just put out the same amount of gas at 25% throttle 4000rpm as it would at WOT 4000rpm... unless it relies on the variable TPS loop. But i was pretty sure that the MAF was read from at all times, which is why it won't let you go above 2000rpm when you unplug it.

 

That can easily be checked with a multimeter = check signal rise. If rising stops somewhere before 6.5k rpm, then MAF cant help after that point, ECU table and open loop is the only answer. I dont really know how it is, also MAF units are 'individuals' (thats why the learning -phase).

The safe-mode ceiling is against unknown errors possibly capable in damaging engine.

Heres an interesting aussie link, I guess Greeny brought this site up: http://autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0637

 

i once had plans of running dual MAFs.. one to the ECU, the other to a gauge. Maybe this is still doable, and maybe will shed light on where the power is hidden. What say you to this idea?

 

But u get the same info when u stick multimeter to MAF signal? ...steal the signal from MAF with long wire, or pita ECU pins...
http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/n...MAFmeasure.flv

I'd use the two MAF's in two intake pipings attached to TB = dubbel air (also two filters). How would t hat monster burn rubber?

 

2 mafs and 2 filters... but the thing can only take in so much air n/a. esp if the TB ports don't get any bigger.

and yea i don't have all that fancy stuff to measure with. How did you hook it so you could get those readings while still having the MAF connected to the ECU? the back of the harness is rubber-jacketed. i see you had something extra there on the top of the MAF though, with the LEDs on it. besides doesn't the multimeter take some of the current away from the MAF signal, thus making it a little bit inaccurate?

 

What you really want!

Voltmeters are high impedance instruments requiring effectively 0 current to operate so any voltage measurement taken while the ECU is even in closed loop will not affect the MAF signal to the ECU

 

1) that looks pretty cool. i assume it requires wideband correct? which means you are adding an 02 sensor rather than replacing the stock narrowband? or can the stock ECU 'read' a wideband just not take advantage of it?
2) ah ok. good to know.

 

Have to comment to this before bedtime: Yes, even my blk&decker electric lawn mover has been spirited, no chokes anymore. the 600square meter mover works 1200 square meters on one charge (same guts) and one annual sharpening against once per month. All double - why not my deer maxim...? Tougher to achieve, but all these tuneup gains based on poor design

Is this the real VE-story?
Nissan executives told to design dpt: one 160hp car, another 190 sporty. The design dpt then mixed accidentally the engines ... ... as a result, they had to choke the VGE, so they took their poorest designer to make its intake - voila' theres the choked one we have... Then they spent years desperately hammerin to get the whiny 190hp horse from VE, finally, in the end of -92 they managed to pack that out...

The led bar is a teaser I made to have the info w/o gauges. I like it... graphically tells all.

 

Okay, I read up to post 10 before I was ready to kick all y'all.

1. the engine will NOT gain power if you start dumping fuel. the factory ECU runs everything just a tad on the rich side already. unless you're forcing air into the engine after the MAF, then the ECU will inject too much fuel already. you really need to lean it out to about 13-13.5:1. factory and JWT ECUs run about 12-12.5:1 to keep the engine on the safe side of the A/F curve.

Thus your initial theory to add more fuel and make more power is incorrect. you must have more air to make more power.

2. At WOT and above about 5000rpm, the injectors are already running just about as heavy of a duty cycle they can do at stock fuel pressures. in order to get more fuel out of the stock injectors, you will need to raise the fuel pressure.

3. Killing the multiport injection and going to simultaneous injection will only cause the engine to run worse since you're ruining the injector's timing and turning them on and off that fast will only cause a loss in overall flow volume since they're trying to run at an 85% duty cycle..... so if the injector was to open and close 6 times during an intake/exh cycle, it's going to have a duty cycle of less than 50%, NOT greater than 85%.

Cliff's Notes.. don't mess with it. Nissan's Engineers did their homework on that. Unless you start adding bigger power adders (big cams, higher compression, turbo, ported heads), then you're not going to need any more fuel.

 

by choke i meant the actual 'choke' setting on the carburetor. plate w/ a hole in it to richen it up at startup. lots of black smoke and stumbling but it starts the engine.

 

The real VE story involves 4 valves per cylinder. the VG story involves a fat powerband and good low end performance for a good moving car while around town.
want to give the VG more power? put some cams in it and watch it breathe. the stock manifold is plenty... if you really want, take a Z31 or a pathfinder VG manifold and stick on there. it'll help a little, but not much.

 

so then maybe a small hole in the intake tube after the maf would lean it up a bit? o2 sensor takes care of it until open loop, at which point it goes rich anyways, wherein the hole leans it back to 13.x? or is that too uncontrolled to work?

also what would a set of cams run? i've never even tried to price something like that out before.

 

1) that thing is crapola. reading their page is full of assumptions and misinformation to make people think it's worth buying.
1a) the only GOOD wideband O2 sensor are the ones made by Innovate. Buy an LM-1 and don't worry about the rest.
1b) The ECU only looks for logic high and low, not an analog range that a wideband puts out. Not to mention the calibration changes over time and the ECU must "run" the sensor calibration every time it starts to provide accurate wideband control. the price of the electronics to read a wideband quadruples because you have to put an A-D converter in the line and then talk to the ECU with a serial stream or use up 8 more inputs on the ECU to make it work. Not to mention it's more for the ECU to worry about.
The VG ECU is already pretty primitive, and couldn't do much more than what it's doing now.

 

1. that would be stoopid. reasons like that are why you install a VAFC/SAFC.
2. regrinds are $100 each. custom grinds are $600 a set. look around online. lots of people make cams for VG. (none.. YET... for VE).

 

do you mean to have a stock cam reground, or get another (beefier) cam and have it ground? i know the general idea is to open sooner close later, with quicker opens and closes, so i wouldn't rly think a stock cam could be ground to make it do stuff more/quicker.. amirite?

 

you'renotrite.

You can regrind stock cams for more lift and duration by grinding down the base circle. google base circle if that doesn't make sense.
but otherwise your theory is correct. more lift, more duration, quicker opening/closing will yield more power.

 

base circle is the circle by which the valve actuation mechianism (tappet, lifter, w/e) rests during the closed portion of the cycle. so if you grind that part down, you shim it to get it moar up? or the HLA/lifter will take up the slack for you?

also is it true that a stock VG ecu will not be able to properly run a camm'd engine?

 

yeah pretty much. grind base circle down, shim elsewhere to fit.

the stock ECU will work okay, but aftermarket ECU will do much better.

 

1. True.
- When too lean, giving more helps.
- Air: for me that is the case.
- My guess is that MAF signal flattens out from the game somewhere between 3 and 6 k and ECU drops to open loop. Havent checked the signal though... You may help me in this, is there somewhere available the signal curve through whole rpm? (next would be how to raise the 6.5k ceiling)
2. Worth trying...
3. This might be the worst issue killing his thread...
4. My message is: do mess but dont cry afterwards. 'Messing' is the best way to learn and find smtg new. Nissan engineering is limited by fast profit, like all, stock systems are always compromising.
4b. Before messing, throw the idea to lions ... then u see whats left, get feeling where the mess most probably ends.
5. The pin43 signal issue itself is still open: will it work that way?