Hey all,

I probably have written about this problem two or three times before. I converted my 90 auto to a 5spd with a 92 VE setup. After installing it with an aftermarket Spec clutch setup, the input shaft seal proved to be bad, and made my clutch slippery with fluid. At this time, a bearing noise started to form, and I assumed it was the ISB considering the symptoms (described below).

I tore it out, replaced the seal and bearing, replaced the clutch with a newer aftermarket one without the race friction disk, and put it back in, only to have the same noise re appear. The throw out bearing was replaced too, even though the other one was brand new.

The noise came back within 100 miles, and after 1000 miles it is very loud. There is no alteration in performance of anything.

The noise is most pronounced with the clutch pedal up, in low rpms, BUT I can hear it with the pedal engaged when I let off of the throttle.

There is no chunky feeling in the shifter, and I put some Lucas gear oil in (as per the recommendation of an old SAAB technician who told me it will clear up any bearing chatter quite well) with no change in the sound at all.

SO, the best I can figure it is not inside the transmission, and it doesn't make sense as the bearing are brand new.

My two theories are that it could be the throw out bearing somehow rubbing the clutch teeth erratically, or it could be the pilot bushing jumping around in the crank.

** I did not know this, but apparently the input shaft does not touch the crank on the VE transmissions, and I installed a pilot bushing that I got from courtesy for the transmission. I had to widen the hole in the crank, so I am thinking that it is loose, BUT I don't see why it would make this much noise.

If you have any other diagnostic techniques I could use, or any input, please help me figure this out before I tear it down AGAIN.

I will try to take a video with a camera that can record audio, my old one proved to be mute....

 

Subscribed.

 

No one?!

I didn't think all the gurus were gone already. I am willing to pay for the answer!! There are no qualified transmission technicians in my area to consult, especially for a standard FWD import.

Hope we find out what the deal is so I can warn any other VE 5spd swappers what to look out for.

Thanks for the BUMP Chris, I hope all your projects are progressing smoothly.

 

having the same problem in my 90 se replaced the clutch throw out bearing trans fluid resurface the fly wheel still same noise its not and loud as it was before but i can still hear it

 

Well at least I'm not the only one. I imagine it has something to do with the pilot bushing if you did all that and I have replaced just as much plus the ISB......

How long have you been experiencing the sound?

Any tech guru's with some knowledge they wanna drop on us?

 

I like to hear the video with the noise. I have heard TOB's and ISB's.

 

Cool, I will try to take one with a decent microphone. Maybe i can get my friend over here with his camera that cost more than all of my junk combined.......

We should both record ours and see if they are the same noise.

 

Could it be the bearing itself spinning in its groove or race

 

That's what we suspect, to a certain extent, though we both replaced all the bearings that would make noise in these conditions. The pilot bushing, my suspected cause, is just a cylinder that sits between the Input shaft of the trans and the crank guide bore, BUT they do not touch in this application, which leads me to believe the pilot bushing is wobbling around until the centrifugal force is so great that it picks a side and shuts up.

Know wha'I'm sayin?

 

Its possible although I would incline more towards that front bearing since it does it in gear and low rpms. If its bore is bigger than the actual bearing by now there's no easy fix. Any bearing misalignment over .005" is going to cause extreme heat and just more labor. Hopefully your right partna. I'm thinking new case to say the least lol

 

One more thing. Did you do job yourself.? If all looks intact and good as you left it.
Bell housing alignment will also contribute to premature bearing damage. I want to say its .005" as well I can't recall off the top but its not much. Make sure your numbers are close.

 

Front bearing? Do you mean the ISB (input shaft bearing)?

I did all the work, and I am anxious to have a visual inspection of the easily accessible components like the pilot bushing, flywheel mount, the friction disk springs, the clutch surface, and the throw out bearing (plus it's linkage).

The bellhousing was never removed from the case, and the alignment of it to the engine should be no more than .005" out of alignment, as there is only one way to put it on, and I torqued it into place very slowly in equal amounts around the 8 bolts holding it on. I don't imagine that has much to do with it, but I may be wrong.

If it were the ISB, the lucas gear oil I added would have made a difference of sound, and it did nothing to it, so it must be outside of the transmission.

I read somewhere on a Toyota Truck forum that a loose pilot bushing caused similar symptoms, and the guy simply took it out even though the input shaft had a noticable amount of play. He continued to drive it after and said it worked fine........

I can't relocate that link, but it may show up soon.

If the input shaft doesn't even touch the crank, it's probably doomed to have bearing issues......

 

No doubt. Input is just gonna wobble around as you explain.
If the tranny don't granade let us know how it comes out. I wouldn't drive it though.

 

1 - you didn't need to enlarge the hole in the crankshaft...the bushing is a tight fit...but you could hammer the bushing in. you enlarging the pilot bushing fitting "may" now cause some issues but i doubt it.

2 - i'm not sure if you actually changed the input shaft bearing or not. i see that you replaced the throw out bearing but input shaft bearing? if the bearing is bad no amount of miracle in a bottle will help you...if you have a mechanical failure..lucus is not going to help you.

3 - the input shaft is riding on the clutch...so it's ok to not have it in the crank.

my guess...input shaft bearing.
time to crack open the case.

 

Thanks Dan

I think we tried hammering in the bushing, and it was a no go. It is a VE 5spd on a VG engine, so that may be why the bushing I bought wasn't right. It is still a tight fit, but not an even roundness anymore for sure........

I did replace the ISB after this noise occurred after first installing the transmission. The seal was obviously bad and caused some slippage, and I diagnosed the sound as an ISB gone bad, but now that a brand new TIMKEN bearing is in there, so I question the other possibilities.

Just trying to figure it out before I tear into it again. I'll have a high quality recording this week for ya to check out.

Thanks again

 

Can the input shaft seal be replaced without splitting the box?

 

now keep in mind i'm referencing the VG5spd so it might be similar to the VE5spd...but did you shim the bearing correctly/properly when you reinstalled the ISB?

this is a 4th gen set up..but ours is pretty similar..
http://www.motorvate.ca/node/59

 

No shimming done by me, so maybe that has something to do with it...... There was a very minute amount of play in the input shaft, but I don't remember in which direction........

I suppose that is a typical procedure on these transmissions?

 

ISB problems are common on the VE transmissions. My original went out. There were chunks in it and not only did it make noise, but the chunks sometimes moved around and prevented me from using gears. I swapped in a completely different trans.

Did you check all of your transmission and engine mounts? If they go bad, it has a tendency to move things around and change geometry. These cars at this age can have bad mounts, which will push bearings into uncomfortable positions, making them louder and wearing them out faster.

 

That's a bummer, I hope I don't experience that.....

I put some new mounts either on the engine or trans, and the rest are some good used ones. I have a box of mounts, I pulled the best looking ones out and painted them for no reason.

What is an ideal way to test for an improperly mounted transmission?

 

check to see if there are cracks in the rubber of the mount itself?

 

I definitely did check the mounts thoroughly. There are no cracks or tears for sure.

I finally got a recording of the sound, so here ya go!!

Click on THIS Thing To Listen

I am leaning on the pilot bushing, or the ISB as I guess I messed up by not shimming a darn thing..........

 

After listening, I had to go back and re-read your initial post. So, are you saying here that the noise is present BOTH with the clutch disengaged AND engaged?

Maybe my ears are mistaken, but that doesn't sound like any bearing (ISB or TOB) noise I've heard. I may be completely off, but when I heard the video, my first thought is that you've thrown a rod bearing.

With that said, I'd think if it is tranny related, my perception is it is not a bad ISB, but one that was not installed properly or maybe wrong bearing for tranny casing. In my experience, bad bearings make more a "whhhhiiiirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr" noise (friction type noise) rather than your "latt - latt - latt - latt - latt" noise (physical movement/ seperation then contact noise).

 

Thanks Chris,


I do believe I can hear something with the clutch engaged (pedal down), but it is much more faint than when it is not engaged (pedal up).

Yea, if that is a bearing, it sounds like it's about to explode, but it doesn't get worse exponentially as I drive the car.

It couldn't be the rod bearing, as the noise does go away a lot when I depress the pedal, and I may just be hearing things, which makes me think the noise is there at all clutch pedal positions.

It could be an improperly installed bearing, as it was my first time tearing into a gear box of that proportion, and I didn't shim anything. Bicycle geared hubs are much easier, and my moped doesn't even have gears.............

Anyone else have a clue as to what the terrible noise is?

Thanks for checking it out Chris.

 

Bump?

 

i can't tell b/c you're revving the motor.
at idle does it make the noise? does it sound like BBs rattling?

my trans does that too...it's the ISB. only happens when i lift off the clutch. when the clutch is in it doesn't make the sound...or maybe it does but i don't hear it.

 

Any chance you can get a video with it? It's hard to visualize the engine speed/clutch pedal position and whatnot with just an audio clip. Either way, that type of sound doesn't sound like any tranny noise I've ever heard in a 3rd gen.

 

When your transferring torque your going to hear it.
When clutch is engage bearing is not being loaded.
Open it up n share already

 

How long has it made that noise? How do you know it's the ISB?

That clip was made with a mic a foot away from the engine, and a video would be too much work for my friend who helped me. This recording was done with no clutch activity, so imagine the sound going away when the clutch is engaged, but a small bit of sound in the 2-3k rpm range. The sound diminishes a lot. The engine is at idle most of the clip I believe, if that helps....

Thanks for checking it out!

The sound is rather odd. Both you and Chris say it's sounds like nothing related to a trans noise, but it has to be considering the clutch changing the noise presence......

Yea we all get the typical diagnostic for a bad ISB, but as both James and Chris said, it sounds like something other than a trans bearing....

I am all about crackin it open, I just wanted to ask as many questions prior to getting dirty since I have done this before. Twice in fact.

Thanks you guys

 

it's been a while (1 yr?)...but i don't drive too much.

i did a 5spd swap...the clutch and everything up front is all new OEM (aftermarket clutch).

the second i fired it up it made that rattle. after a little driving the noise would soften...but still there. i assume the fresh gear lube got in there and helped things out but still rattles.

i checked with a few techs and read on the forum and it all points to ISB (maybe another bearing but it's definitely something that requires the case to be cracked open)

one person said that it might be the slave/master cyl that there's air in it...but i bled the system a few times already and noise is still there.

 

Yea, I have experienced this for about a year as well, and that's with two different ISB, clutches, and TOBs.........


Did you swap a 5sp from a VE engine onto a VG engine like I did?

Well, at least I feel better now that I'm not the only one dealing with this problem.......

 

VG trans to VG motor

 

Hmmmm

Maybe we both made a fatal error in the installation process.

Does your sound as loud as mine? It's pretty obnoxious.

Anyone ever talk about the pilot bushing when you were asking around?

 

my motor was a 5spd motor.
when i did the turbo set up i had an auto trans. i swapped out the smaller bushing with a bigger one so the tc can ride in it.

when i did the 5spd swap i didn't swap back the bushing since the shaft is on the clutch...i checked around and ppl said it's ok to leave it.

mine is not THAT loud. i can hear it...but it's no way as loud as yours.

 

Eero, you're just going to have to drop the tranny, check for play in the main shaft. If none, then I would start the car without the tranny and see if the noise is present. If it is, then you know where to refocus. If no engine noise, then crack the tranny.

 

Well this helps me disclose further that I should suspect the pilot bushing.

Thanks for the input.

I didn't know it was possible to run it without the trans, never thought of that.

Your not helping my procrastination at all Chris.

: )

 

Yeah, why not, just be safe. Will need to support the front of the engine briefly by oil pan or above by a rope. Really just for stabilization since the 3rd gens don't have a torque mount. I'd suggest suporting from above with rope. Just need to run for a few seconds to determine presence of noise.

 

I have the same thing dose it sound like a super charger i work at a parts store and i get similar complaint's but hey as long as my 3rd gen is still chugging along like a champ im ok with it