okay guys, just cause i havn't given up on the ecu yet i went down to g-force today. they took apart the chip and what do you know, they said that it was running the stock program. they said that there was a third program in my ecu that was stock and unmodified that the car was running off of. whatever. so, they did the mods to the ecu and i was off hoping to feel some gains.

what happened? the car wouldn't go past 3K rpm, was jerking in gear, the fans went on continuously, and the check engine light went on. oops. so i go back. they said that a bad chip caused the ecu to go into "limp home" mode.

okay. so they put in a new chip. i drive around the block and the car runs fine but guess what. feels the exact same. i go back again. the programers pull out a techom and a timing gun. after bout 20 minutes they diagnose my car as running 5 degrees retarded from the factory. they claim that my car is supposed to be at 15 degrees but is actually at 10 degrees. they tell me that the computer cannot control the timing and that i have to mechanically advance the timing. so now it's the cars fault.

now, according to daniel b. martin, whom i consider to be very knowledgable, there is no mechanical adjustment for the timing. so, because i'm still trying to be fair, i'm heading out to the track on wednesday to see if there are any gains.

also, i asked both robert and the programer if it makes a difference that i have no modifications and they both told me that it would not make a difference. they said that since the timing is where the power is really being made that intake or exhaust mods wouldn't matter.

so, any opinions? it's nice to know that murphy's laws are still very much in effect.

 

I searched my factory service manual and found a crisp clear answer on page EC-44:
"Only check the ignition timing as the timing is not adjustable."

 

hey daniel..
i went to get a smog check earlier today..and the guy told me i failed..cuz the ignition timing was off. was this bogus info ? i'd love to go back..and tell them the timing cant be changed in the first place..

 

i thought for 95s that timing could be changed due to the timing belt, compared to timing chain with the later years?

im prolly wrong. so i wont go further than that..

--Cheston

 

'95's have timing chains. At least mine always has.

 

Hold on!!! Wait a minute!!! I thought the gains with the UPRD ECU was that it ADVANCES TIMING and plays with the fuel tables!!! Now they are saying they didn't do anything to the timing because the computer doesn't have anything to do with it? So much for the "when you add mods it will work" idea. You guys heard it from the programmers themselves. 95greenSE, good thing you are near G-Force so they can play with your ECU. I feel sorry for the poor sack who gets a hold of bad ECU somewhere other than LA and has to be without a car for a week or has to go to the junkyard to get a replacement ECU.

BTW according to Chilton's, all VQs use a timing chain.


Dave

 

some1 answer my q.

can the igition timing be tampered with?....

i just found out the place took my gas cap!
my gas cap!...omg! those bastards!

 

about the timing, it IS the timing that produces the power. i was told that maxima's are severely retarted in the high rpm range. they said that the ecu is changed to something very similar to the ecu program of a NA 300zx. the guy that told me this was the japanese programer who did my ecu. pretty nice guy. unfortunately, he's also the one that checked my timing and told me to take it to a mechanic to get the timing advanced back to stock specs. he's also the one that left the stock program in my ecu. he said that the timing was adjusted mechanically and by the ecu. while the ecu adjusts timing throughout the rpm range, the engine timing can be set for a specific base line timing mechanically.

since i'm returning the ecu to get my money back i thought i'd mention this for the last time. take my experience with a grain of salt. my experiences with the ecu and g-force may definately be different from yours and with a 30 day refund policy it couldn't hurt to try. i'm not against the ecu but i am frustrated by my time and money being wasted trying to get this thing to work right. from the number of posts praising the ecu i can almost certainly say that i'm most likely that one freak bad example that almost all tuning shops have.

 

I searched my factory service manual and found a crisp clear answer on page EC-44:
"Only check the ignition timing as the timing is not adjustable."

 

95greenSE-

I guess other peoples results await to be seen at the track.

With your money left over, I recommend buying a y-pipe and a Courtesy B-pipe. You will be more than happy with the gains, especially the torque. BTW, have a shop fabricate the extension pipe that goes between the cat and B-pipe. The Courtesy provided extension completely negates any gains you will see with the B-pipe. Hell, tell them to keep the piece because you'll make it yourself. The piece is just a 6" 2.5" pipe that goes between the cat and B-pipe. The Courtesy part is knuckled and bent which kills airflow.


Dave

 

The ECU handles the advancing of the timing. If the ECU that they gave you does not advance the timing, then there is something wrong with the ECU they sold you, or at least the re-programming they performed.
A JWT ECU gave me tremendous gains in performance in my 95 GXE. You should try JWT and see. It was well worth the $545 I spent for it.
I picked up 5 mph in the 1/4 mile, although my et's remained exactly the same. (15.1) Reason: Poor traction. I ran 15.1 @ 90 mph with a 2.2 60' time without the ECU, then a 15.1 @ 95.96 mph with the ECU, on a 2.5 60' time. The JWT ECU works, that's a promise.

 

Maybe I don't understand your post. Maybe you are admitting your $545 bought you nothing. If your Elapsed Time is the same, you are still losing to the same cars you lost to before changing the Engine Control Module.

 

daniel: i think he said that the reason for no change in E.T. was poor traction. my question is, if he did have the same traction as the prior run without the ecu, would his MPH have gone up some more with the resultant decrease in E.T.? if so then the JWT would definately be worth the 500+ dollars.

 

Maybe, but that's difficult to predict. Better traction means less wheelspin means his engine would be turning at lower speeds, and that means less horsepower. I'm not disputing his "seat of the pants" dynomometer, merely pointing out that winning is winning and all the rest is excuses.

 

The et simply showed me what I realized. While driving the car on the strip, there was no hope at hooking it up in any type of fashion. It was in the mid 30's that night, and running on underinflated smaller tires (215/60/15's instead of my regular 225/50/16's) wouldn't allow me to better my 60' times one bit. Hence the 2.5 60' as compared to the 2.2. Losing .2-.3 in the first 60' will hurt you by about .3-.4 on the top end. No matter what I tried I couldn't hook up on the starting pad. Launching at idle, then burying the throttle once rolling, resulted in wheelspin, squeezing the throttle like a trigger gave me a decent 0-20, but once the throttle was wide-open, I got wheelspin. The 2.5 60' was launching at idle and flooring the throttle at 4000 rpm.
Prior to the ecu, (and on the street) I had no problems with launching. Reason I stopped trying: on the above mentioned trip to the track, I destroyed my recently rebuilt transmission. That being the 2nd transmission in 6 months, I decided to give racing a rest.

 

About 2 years ago Biomax did back to back dyno testing of a 95 JWT ECU and his stock 97 ECU. He gained over 7hp/10lb-ft average from 3000-5000rpm. Looking at the chart I believe a max gain of 10-12hp came at 4500rpm. Cattman can get you the ecu for $545 I believe, which is better than JWT's $595.

 

[I have recieved some email at Gforce concerning this post so I decided to register and post a response just to clear up any past and potential mis-understandings.

95greense
okay guys, just cause i havn't given up on the ecu yet i went down to g-force today. they took apart the chip and what do you know, they said that it was running the stock program. they said that there was a third program in my ecu that was stock and unmodified that the car was running off of.

Gforce
Just to clear up this situation 95greense had one of the if not the newest program we have seen on the 1996 cars. The factory program contained a second Ignition timing map that was apparently being accessed that was not seen on earlier programs. this is very common with most cars such as Mitsu, Toyota, and Nissan. Some programs like the D33 eclipse use 6 different timing maps. Most Toyotas use at least 2 for Igntion timing.
------------------------------------
95greense
what happened? the car wouldn't go past 3K rpm, was jerking in gear, the fans went on continuously, and the check engine light went on. oops. so i go back. they said that a bad chip caused the ecu to go into "limp home" mode.

Gforce
Considering that the car came in with an ECU upgrade and running fine it had to be an EPROM burning problem. We reinstalled the "new" program on a Toshiba EPROM with no problems. sorry again 95greense.
------------------------------------
95greense
okay. so they put in a new chip. i drive around the block and the car runs fine but guess what. feels the exact same. i go back again. the programers pull out a techom and a timing gun. after bout 20 minutes they diagnose my car as running 5 degrees retarded from the factory. they claim that my car is supposed to be at 15 degrees but is actually at 10 degrees. they tell me that the computer cannot control the timing and that i have to mechanically advance the timing. so now it's the cars fault.

Gforce
Since its really unusual not to feel "any" difference after an upgrade, our programmer decided to grab an MDM-100 (we dont own a Consult)and check the IGN timing output signal. It was right on the spec. The ECU output IGN timing signal was on the "new" map. Our progammer then decided to grab a timing light, no consult, and see what we could read. He said the Spec was 15 deg, the decal under the hood spec anyway, but the 'base' timing, remember not the ECU otuput signal, was 10 deg. We thought it was strange. There are times when you really need a consult.

------------------------------------
95greense
now, according to daniel b. martin, whom i consider to be very knowledgable, there is no mechanical adjustment for the timing. so, because i'm still trying to be fair, i'm heading out to the track on wednesday to see if there are any gains.

Gforce
True. The fact that the timing isnt adjustable doesnt mean the base static timing cannot be out of spec ( not to be confused with the ECU IGN output signal).
------------------------------------
95greense
also, i asked both robert and the programer if it makes a difference that i have no modifications and they both told me that it would not make a difference. they said that since the timing is where the power is really being made that intake or exhaust mods wouldn't matter.

Gforce
Yes the upgraded timing map with or without an untake and Exhaust is basically the same one we have run on the dyno countless times during testing and R&D. It works!

Sorry for all the problems 95greense and thanks for all the patience.

 

"I thought the gains with the UPRD ECU was that it ADVANCES TIMING and plays with the fuel tables!!! "

All ECUs upgraded by Gforce feature revised and upgrade Ignition timing maps and fuel maps.
VQ30DE ECU programs assume that the base static timing is in spec sending out the appropriate advance or retarded signal. The ECU program doesn’t control the base static timing its simply mechanical.

"You guys heard it from the programmers themselves. "

This is not correct, just because you read it on the Internet doesn’t make it true. Unless some one from the actual company responds pleas don’t take it as fact until you verify it for yourself, that is if you care to know the truth.

"95greenSE, good thing you are near G-Force so they can play with your ECU. I feel sorry for the poor sack who gets a hold of bad ECU somewhere other than LA and has to be without a car for a week or has to go to the junkyard to get a replacement ECU."

95greenSe's ECU problem was a simple programming problem, and in the case of the bad "chip" we could have simply sent out a new one for user installation to save time since the upgraded ECU worked fine when it was brought to us, the ECU was never damaged or made unusable.

I wish more people would put this type of negative energy into putting some of the fraudulent "chip" companies out of business instead of slamming legitimate companies that are providing a good honest product for the auto enthusiast.

 

When can we expect an ECU upgrade for 98-99 4th gens?

 

Robert:
Just wanted thanks and I am very pleased with ECU from G-force.. Check out my post on the General Forum about the G-force ECU upgrade..

Fernando Cuco

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by robert@gforce
[B][Just to clear up this situation 95greense had one of the if not the newest program we have seen on the 1996 cars. The factory program contained a second Ignition timing map that was apparently being accessed that was not seen on earlier programs. this is very common with most cars such as Mitsu, Toyota, and Nissan. Some programs like the D33 eclipse use 6 different timing maps. Most Toyotas use at least 2 for Igntion timing.

Considering that the car came in with an ECU upgrade and running fine it had to be an EPROM burning problem. We reinstalled the "new" program on a Toshiba EPROM with no problems. sorry again 95greense. [QUOTE]

So then is it safe to assume that if I have a 95 SE, 6/94 build date, that I wont have problems with my car's ECU after it gets re-programmed. I live in Florida and can't afford to be w/o my car for too long. It'll be a sacrifice just for the week or so that is expected. Where can I get a spare ECU and how much?

 

i'm glad to see that robert is putting in his input. although i'm not a believer in the product yet the customer service is always good.

so it was the static timing that was off. how would one adjust static timing. i'm assuming static timing would be the same as timing as read off the engine. also, given that the timing was off before and after the ecu install wouldn't the gains still be there relative to the timing?


i haven't had a chance to go to the track yet but i'm hoping to next wednesday.

 

The ignition timing is controlled by the Engine Control Module. It is not adjustable. If the timing is wrong, blame the ECM.

 

Thanks!

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by plrod Black 95 SE
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by robert@gforce
[Just to clear up this situation 95greense had one of the if not the newest program we have seen on the 1996 cars. The factory program contained a second Ignition timing map that was apparently being accessed that was not seen on earlier programs. this is very common with most cars such as Mitsu, Toyota, and Nissan. Some programs like the D33 eclipse use 6 different timing maps. Most Toyotas use at least 2 for Igntion timing.

Considering that the car came in with an ECU upgrade and running fine it had to be an EPROM burning problem. We reinstalled the "new" program on a Toshiba EPROM with no problems. sorry again 95greense.

Quote:

So then is it safe to assume that if I have a 95 SE, 6/94 build date, that I wont have problems with my car's ECU after it gets re-programmed. I live in Florida and can't afford to be w/o my car for too long. It'll be a sacrifice just for the week or so that is expected. Where can I get a spare ECU and how much?

The upgrade was originally designed to work on the 1995s so no problems. We are lucky that it also fits the '96s without problems.

Cheston Chiu was trying to locate cores, we dont really have a source, try locally. Just make sure it doesnt have any visable corrosion and it that it will start the car.
Thanks,

If you have any problems contacting Cheston email me directly.
Thanks,

 

so a new ecm would do it? wonder if the timing is causing my car to lose some power? i remember what 5 degrees of timing did to my mustang. now that was a difference. how does one go about getting a new ecm?

 

Thanks again for your patience.

Yes the static base timing is read off the engine, the MDM reads the ECU output signal. The ECU is constantly making slight changes / corrections depending on sensor inputs.
You are right again, even if the timing is off it was off before so the ECU revised maps should still make a big difference down low.

I'm looking forward to seeing the track times now.

 

Dont worry about it for now.
Maybe I can try to borrow a consult and really see whats going on....we can do data log a 3rd gear pull and printout the data and see whats going on , AND the consult WILL allow you to play with the timing.

 

i'm game. just let me know when. like i said, "i wanna be a believer"

 

I've been following this thread, and since it looks like you're in the Torrance area alot, maybe we could meet up sometime and I could give you a demonstration of what the UPRD/GForce ECU will do on a Maxima (mine)...

I'm sure you'll be a believer then...

--Nabil

 

hey nabil. actually i'm in monterey park. but to be honest i'm sure that riding in your modded 5 speed compared to my bone stock auto will seem like a night and day difference with or without the ecu it was your car that was dynoed to show a 30HP difference in the mid range right? must be nice. thanks for the offer though. hopefully i can take robert up on his offer and sort the problems with my car out.

 

G-Force:

95GreenSE should be able to feel a difference with the new program which is suppose to make ATLEAST 18 fwhp and torque in the midrange and 6 fwhp in the upper range, but he feels nothing. This quoted and "dyno proven" gain should be readily felt seeing it should be a very substainal gain in a 3000lb car. I felt a big difference with my y-pipe and that only added maybe 10 fwhp. Topend power was dramatically increased.

When 95greenSE goes to the track again, the truth will be told. I have a feeling nothing will change between his last run. Sorry, but I've witnessed many aftermarket ECUs (Hypertech, JET, Superchips, FastChip) tested on late model NA cars and the gains are very minimal (maybe 2 hp which is easily within the error between dyno runs). Only the forced induction cars with adjustable wastegates seem to really gain anything. The only ECUs I've seen gain good power on NA cars are custom burned chips which are designed to make aftermarket cams, heads, and intakes work with the motor.

Dave

 

how did i become the poster child for the "anti-g-force" movement. so much pressure.

 

poster child, eh. not really. just the one with the most spoken for with problems.

see ..dave B doesn't even have one. so i dont know why he's so adament about it. but heck. i guess we need one of those here and there to keep things interesting..

i mean. hey david. u got a 96 se 5speed. that's what my Gforce engineering ecu is. u wanna borrow it for a week?

heck. my car is still in the shop. i got no use for it until i get it back.

let me know...

oh yeah. i'm trying to get you an AFC price so you can "demonstrate" and teach me a lesson that the Super AFC will kick my *** compared to my Gforce ecu.
is that cool with you?

--Cheston
let me know.

 

 

95greenSE-

You're not a "poster boy". The reason I use you as an example is because you actually went out and tested the ECU and the same goes for Confused. You showed no gains and Confused's et dropped .2 with the addition of the UPRD ecu, a 2K muffler, and better shifting (ie shiftlight). The reason I get so worked up about this is because people flamed the heck out of me when I disagreed with the UPRD gains and dynos. I was told that I should see lots of 5 speed Max's running low to mid 14s@97+mph and autos running high 14s@92mph quite easily with the ECU. The track info is currently showing the ECU to gain 1mph and possibly .1 at the track. Hardily what I call "bang for the buck". Many have said the gains of the ECU are felt on the highway and not the track. BS. If you can fell the gains from a roll-on in 3rd at 60mph, you're gonna feel and see the difference at the track, pure and simple. 3rd is by far my best gear and the car literally leaps hard at WOT from 3500rpms on. Ever since adding my y-pipe and B-pipe the car pulls much harder after 70mph. My B-pipe with the revised extension piece was good for .2 and 2mph at the track under the same conditions and 60 foot. I'm a numbers guy and I need to see the real-world proof.


Cheston-
No thanks on hte ECU offer. The S-AFC is on my list to do, but I want to get a rear leather seat to compliment my front Prelude seats, and then I need to get a front lip spoiler. I want all this done by May for big Nissan meet in KC, so the AFC is on hold unless I find one used. I WILL do a 1 hour dyno tune with it and I will post the results.

Dave

 

Hey Cheston, that's really nice of you to make Dave B that offer to try out your ECU for himself. But what assurances will you have that he won't get so attached to it and won't want to give it back???

And Dave, here's your chance to find out for yourself what this ECU will do on YOUR car. Hopefully you can see for yourself what we've been talking about and get off your warpath once and for all.
Heck, you can even dyno and track test your own car too.

By the way, I have had the APex'i S-AFC for a year now on my car and let me assure you that it won't give you what you're thinking it would do your car. This is especially true because your mods closely resemble mine and the path I've been taking to modify my car. So don't expect miracles with the S-AFC on a bolt-on modded Maxima.

However, the S-AFC does come in handy when you need to dial in minor fuel tweaks if you get an SC, NOS, or even a very aggressive program on a modified ECU, and this last option is what keeps the S-AFC useful in my eyes.

--Nabil

P.S. Hey Cheston, have you tested this ECU on a car since you've had it modded? Wanna try it on my car or even Hiroshi's car first? I'm saying this because I need an reason to hang out with the guys (you, Hiroshi, Martin, Jay, et al.) and talk about cars, and this is as good an excuse as any... hahaha

 

Dave B -

It is great to see customers testing products they buy and we support this 100% as this creates problems for fraudulent companies.
How customers test is up to the individual, however Drag racing is definately not a legitimate way to test the power gains a product makes.
Drag racing only shows what the car is capable of down the quarter mile, driver error and changing conditions are to way too unstable. Drag racing is fun no doubt and if you monitor engine and track temps, and you CHANGE that part right after averaging a few runs the results can tell you if your car is making more power.
Drag racing is only "real-world proof" of a persons drag racing driving skills. If you want you can do drag racing tricks like pulling the seats, wipers, side mirrors, tape body seams, remove bumper supports, tweak the suspension, add octane booster, chill the engine (or IC if equipped) with NOS or whatever, and see your ETs drop AND you MPH go up without making more power, does that mean that the car made more power??? Does that mean the car is more fun to drive through forests or canyons?? I dont think so.
If you want to see exaclty how much more power a car makes take it to the dyno.
By the way we have taken close to 10 different Maximas to the dyno for testing and tuning to develop our ECU upgrade to give customers the best product we can. Thats a lot more than most companies do. The industries standard practice for R&D is "recieve and duplicate" not "research and development".

We're doing our best for the Maxima enthusiasts.

 

On a side note, Robert there are quite a few 99 Maximas waiting for the upgraded ECU. Thanks for looking into this.

 

i am waiting too.