Our factory brakes SUCK!!
01-07-2005, 10:43 AM
#41
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,555
Tires are the key to good braking. Period. Summer performance rubber is far better at stopping than your typical all-season tire. IMO, the best "street" setup for the normal Maxima owner is:
1) A good set of performance street front pads ($30-70)
2) Front Brembo blank rotors ($45 each)
3) Motul fluid
4) Good tires
You'd be amazed at the difference in brake feel.
1) A good set of performance street front pads ($30-70)
2) Front Brembo blank rotors ($45 each)
3) Motul fluid
4) Good tires
You'd be amazed at the difference in brake feel.
01-07-2005, 11:13 AM
#43
Originally Posted by Dave B
IMO, the best "street" setup for the normal Maxima owner is:
1) A good set of performance street front pads ($30-70)
2) Front Brembo blank rotors ($45 each)
3) Motul fluid
4) Good tires
You'd be amazed at the difference in brake feel.
1) A good set of performance street front pads ($30-70)
2) Front Brembo blank rotors ($45 each)
3) Motul fluid
4) Good tires
You'd be amazed at the difference in brake feel.
01-07-2005, 11:14 AM
#44
Dunno Dave. How much hp is best for a "street" maxima? 200hp? 280hp? 350hp? Don't you think some of these boys should be upgrading the brakes as much as they upgrade their hp? And why not have big brakes? Huge stopping power never hurt anyone? 
Never can have too much hp or too much brake.
Never can have too much hp or too much brake.
Originally Posted by Dave B
Tires are the key to good braking. Period. Summer performance rubber is far better at stopping than your typical all-season tire. IMO, the best "street" setup for the normal Maxima owner is:
1) A good set of performance street front pads ($30-70)
2) Front Brembo blank rotors ($45 each)
3) Motul fluid
4) Good tires
You'd be amazed at the difference in brake feel.
1) A good set of performance street front pads ($30-70)
2) Front Brembo blank rotors ($45 each)
3) Motul fluid
4) Good tires
You'd be amazed at the difference in brake feel.
01-07-2005, 12:07 PM
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,308
my silvia is experiencing front break bias problems with the front supra kit and 13" rotors. the stock rears are absolutely dwarf size in comparison. i will either switch to Z32 brakes all around or try a higher mu rear pad. the pads are currently axis ultimate ceramic all around. does anyone know of a pad that has the highest coeficient of drag that i can use to add more rear brake bias? it's true. bigger is not necessarily better. better balance is better.
01-07-2005, 12:21 PM
#47
Originally Posted by TopElement
Maybe you missed it, even though you singled out that part of my post. I never typed "bigger is better." 
I'm not trying to convince anyone our brake systems are the best, they speak for themselves.
I'm not trying to convince anyone our brake systems are the best, they speak for themselves.
01-07-2005, 12:29 PM
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,883
Originally Posted by njmaxseltd
Maintained properly, the Maxiam has good brakes right from the factory.
You can upgrade to larger brakes, but you will not stop any faster then the rubber your running allows you to. Most people think bigger brakes will stop you faster but never think about the last thing that keeps you connected to the road, your tires. They play a huge role in your stopping power. Bottom line is if you can lock them up now, larger brakes will only lock up sooner.
If you track your car or are very hard on the brakes, upgrade to a performance pad and a slotted rotor to eliminate brake fade.
You can upgrade to larger brakes, but you will not stop any faster then the rubber your running allows you to. Most people think bigger brakes will stop you faster but never think about the last thing that keeps you connected to the road, your tires. They play a huge role in your stopping power. Bottom line is if you can lock them up now, larger brakes will only lock up sooner.
If you track your car or are very hard on the brakes, upgrade to a performance pad and a slotted rotor to eliminate brake fade.
01-07-2005, 12:56 PM
#49
we also need to consider that 2000-2001 maxima run the 4th gen brake components but is overall a heavier vehicle. The stock brakes are insufficient in terms of performance from the factory. Yes rubber is the main component, but brake design in terms of pad size and clamping force also play a factor, which is definitely one area where our one piston calipers come in behind.
And another important factor: brake pedal travel and feel. Performance brake systems feature much more improved brake pedal feel and distance travel, which in turns give way to better performance with more responsive and predictable braking. Hence properly designed bbk's take into consideration a multitude of factors for the specific vehicle
I don't have any squeals or noises with my APs. I tend to disagree that tracking the car with only upgraded pads and rotors would reduce fade by much. Your still using the same surface area and volume of the stock rotors with a more aggressive compounds for the pads which would heat them up quicker
And another important factor: brake pedal travel and feel. Performance brake systems feature much more improved brake pedal feel and distance travel, which in turns give way to better performance with more responsive and predictable braking. Hence properly designed bbk's take into consideration a multitude of factors for the specific vehicle
I don't have any squeals or noises with my APs. I tend to disagree that tracking the car with only upgraded pads and rotors would reduce fade by much. Your still using the same surface area and volume of the stock rotors with a more aggressive compounds for the pads which would heat them up quicker
if someone with useable knowledge could please provide input about the brake pad with the highest mu it would be greatly appreciated.
01-07-2005, 05:00 PM
#54
Well I knew that they were both affiliated with the company Top Element Tuning, and I had noticed they both had Enkei RPF1s, but I didn't realize they were the same guy until I saw some of the quoted messages in this thread quoting "slammed95" with TopElement's words. I was wondering where slammed95 had gone lol.
01-07-2005, 05:50 PM
#55
Originally Posted by TopElement
It has been thoroughly expleined to you many times. I believe through both PM's and AIM. We have tried to resolve the situation, but it's out of our control. Again, you'll receive the parts as soon as it's possible.
01-07-2005, 05:53 PM
#56
Originally Posted by Nealoc187
Am I the last one on the board to have just made the connection that TopElement = slammed95?
which I find strange, I thought you would have been among the first
01-07-2005, 06:03 PM
#57
Originally Posted by TopElement
Maybe you missed it, even though you singled out that part of my post. I never typed "bigger is better."
I'm not trying to convince anyone our brake systems are the best, they speak for themselves.
I'm not trying to convince anyone our brake systems are the best, they speak for themselves.
Originally Posted by TopElement
We use the "better is better" philosophy
. You are clearly quoting posts from a privileged forum, which is against forum rules.
01-07-2005, 06:20 PM
#58
Originally Posted by MrGone
which I find strange, I thought you would have been among the first
Even if I win I might have a mysterious vacation...
Congrats!
VQ > VE 4Eva
01-07-2005, 06:33 PM
#59
Originally Posted by TopElement
Unless I'm missing something very obvious, i have no idea what you're reffering to. I said "better is better", and your telling me i said "better is better." Same exact thing, i don't see where the discrepancy is. I didn't edit my post, i simply deleted the old one to remove a separate sentence, which i decided shouldn't be posted for good reason, yet a mod decided to bring it back to stir things up.
. I still do not understand when you said..
Originally Posted by TopElement
However, you gotta get over your "f/r bias" issue that you seem to bring up in every thread now that you upgraded the rears. It may feel better in a straight line, but try it on a high speed sweeper or on a road course, and you'll probably spin out.
Originally Posted by TopElement
I have inquired several times about sponsoring the forums, but with no intent to advertise. Basically just a large donation, but no response was received. So, i have donated through other members, which is why I have access to the forum you speak of.
I just did not see you on the sponsers list 
. However, donating or not, there is still a clear violation of the forum rules.
01-08-2005, 12:06 AM
#63
Originally Posted by TopElement
I fail to see any sort of personal attack, it was a broad statement.
Originally Posted by Triple8Sol
Weak sauce. You should get a real kit from TET with AP Racing brakes. .
Here is another reference bad mouthing the Cobra rotors. Even though Neal has tracked his rotors with absolutely no problems. And since they come factory on 300hp+ cars that have to backed by a factory warranty..
Originally Posted by Triple8Sol
Cobra rotors are a joke.
Originally Posted by TopElement
I don't recall ever even trying to sell one of our brake systems,
Originally Posted by Triple8Sol
You should get a real kit from TET with AP Racing brakes.
Originally Posted by TopElement
or saying that you should use them just because they can be found on the leading teams in all motorsports categories.
How about this?
Originally Posted by Triple8Sol
:You should get a real kit from TET with AP Racing brakes. Used by 95% of the JGTC cars.
Originally Posted by TopElement
Yes, you have "hounded" me about this. If you're in such urgent need of some data, why not contact the masters at Stoptech? They apperently know everything since they use Brembo calipers, yet try to pass them off as their own, and hype up rotors they don't even make.
Here's a quote regarding Brembos and AP:
Originally Posted by Cattman
Its not a matter of "trying" to make the Brembos look better than the AP brakes, because they are.
Brembo owns AP and the AP calipers and rotors are a second tier brand. The most significant differences between the AP and Brembo kits include:
1. The Brembo kits are completely engineered and manufactured for the specific application by Brembo. The AP kits include Brembo's generic AP calipers and rotors, but Stillen assembles all the other kit pieces (I'm referring to the AP kits sold by Stillen, but whomever is putting them together, they're only getting the calipers and rotors from AP) - hats and brackets are made by a Stillen subcontractor, i.e. an unknown third party - so the kitcomponents have not been integrated by the same party (Brembo) and I think that matters. The kit lacks Brembo's comprehensive design capabilities, and I would not have the same faith in a third-party's quality control process that I would in a kit totally designed and fabricated by Brembo. These are brakes after all, your life depends on them, why take any chances? I would note that Stillen didn't design the braking system you refer to on the Ferrari - if they use the 6-piston AP caliper, there would still be some very sophisticated design/engineering talent applied to that system that is not involved with the Maxima AP kit sold by Stillen.
This matters, and the difference is made evident by the feedback I get from customers who buy them. Great pedal feel and balanced front/rear proportioning seems to be the universal response from Brembo GT owners. This is not the reaction I hear from owners of many other brands. They are plagued by vague pedal feel, and proportioning issues between the new front big brakes and the stock rears - no one mentions these issues with the Brembo kits.
2. I don't know if this has changed, but AP has traditionally used a fixed system, but the Brembo rotors are floating to prevent internal tensions from the differential heat expansion between steel/iron and aluminum, which is a significant advantage.
3. As far as pad size goes, the key factor is the torque available to press them against the rotor, and that's a function of piston area. Brembo's 4 piston F50 caliper has a 10% torque advantage over the AP 6 piston caliper (55.5 cm2 VS 50.1 cm2).
4. The rotor material on the Brembo GTs is superior (more durable and better heat dissipation) to the AP rotors, obviously a key factor.
5. Parts availability (and backup in case a liability issue arises) - Brembo has been around for 35 years and is a $500M/year company.
6. I don't know if if this is a difference between the two brand names or not, but Brembo also mentions that their brakes will not affect the factory warranty, and they have a lifetime warranty against defects (and they don't get claims).
Brembos are more expensive, but they remain a good value for anyone who demands the best, particularly at this sale price. In this case, you really do get what you pay for.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
Brembo owns AP and the AP calipers and rotors are a second tier brand. The most significant differences between the AP and Brembo kits include:
1. The Brembo kits are completely engineered and manufactured for the specific application by Brembo. The AP kits include Brembo's generic AP calipers and rotors, but Stillen assembles all the other kit pieces (I'm referring to the AP kits sold by Stillen, but whomever is putting them together, they're only getting the calipers and rotors from AP) - hats and brackets are made by a Stillen subcontractor, i.e. an unknown third party - so the kitcomponents have not been integrated by the same party (Brembo) and I think that matters. The kit lacks Brembo's comprehensive design capabilities, and I would not have the same faith in a third-party's quality control process that I would in a kit totally designed and fabricated by Brembo. These are brakes after all, your life depends on them, why take any chances? I would note that Stillen didn't design the braking system you refer to on the Ferrari - if they use the 6-piston AP caliper, there would still be some very sophisticated design/engineering talent applied to that system that is not involved with the Maxima AP kit sold by Stillen.
This matters, and the difference is made evident by the feedback I get from customers who buy them. Great pedal feel and balanced front/rear proportioning seems to be the universal response from Brembo GT owners. This is not the reaction I hear from owners of many other brands. They are plagued by vague pedal feel, and proportioning issues between the new front big brakes and the stock rears - no one mentions these issues with the Brembo kits.
2. I don't know if this has changed, but AP has traditionally used a fixed system, but the Brembo rotors are floating to prevent internal tensions from the differential heat expansion between steel/iron and aluminum, which is a significant advantage.
3. As far as pad size goes, the key factor is the torque available to press them against the rotor, and that's a function of piston area. Brembo's 4 piston F50 caliper has a 10% torque advantage over the AP 6 piston caliper (55.5 cm2 VS 50.1 cm2).
4. The rotor material on the Brembo GTs is superior (more durable and better heat dissipation) to the AP rotors, obviously a key factor.
5. Parts availability (and backup in case a liability issue arises) - Brembo has been around for 35 years and is a $500M/year company.
6. I don't know if if this is a difference between the two brand names or not, but Brembo also mentions that their brakes will not affect the factory warranty, and they have a lifetime warranty against defects (and they don't get claims).
Brembos are more expensive, but they remain a good value for anyone who demands the best, particularly at this sale price. In this case, you really do get what you pay for.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
Originally Posted by TopElement
Obviously you are well versed in the field of brakes, yet you still question hard facts. The biggest issue about braking power centers around the most important issue in braking: release. That you can "lock them up anytime I want" is NOT a good test of a braking system. Quite the opposite. The real issue in performance braking is not the ultimate clamping force, but release and how quickly and precisely you can take the force OFF the rotors to keep that knife edge of balance of grip. That's why six-piston calipers are more precise than four-piston ones, given the same installation design. We have a 6 piston and a 4 piston caliper that use the same piston volume, therefore increasing precision, while maintaining the same fluid displacement. The result translates into lots more finesse. Going back to the number of pistons and why it's important, piston calipers equal more braking force controllability, which equals greater ability to feather your brakes. ABS on some maximas make this even more useful. I have shown customers how the ABS pulsing is nearly imperceptible, compared to the harsh pedal-pounding felt with stock or other calipers. Also, I'll point out that our radial-mount calipers enhance this intent compared to lug-mount calipers, but some wheel configurations don't allow for radial mount, and lug-mounts are definitely less expensive. First, because the radial mounts that are perpendicular to the diameter of the rotor allow for more leeway in where/how you need to mount them, and second, because the wider the gap between the mounts, the stiffer the caliper. Most of the calipers we use have a 152mm (6"), which again affects how evenly the clamping force is delivered to the pad.
And to continue another point(s)
Again under Patricks name: Note 3rd party reference
Originally Posted by Triple8Sol
BTW, upgrading the rears won't do much. Confirmed by the gurus at TET.
If this the case, then why are you developing a rear bbk as we speak?
Whole thread for reference:
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....ight=cobra+bbk
01-08-2005, 02:14 AM
#65
AP is owned by brembo??
and how come AP Racing is the choice of professional racers? JGTC, F1, Stock Cars among others? How would they be the choice of professionals if they are old inferior brembo designs?
just not sure I understand where that came from, from what I know AP is an independent 30yr old company based in coventry england... even if it was owned by brembo, if they were inferior, why would everyone use them?
and how come AP Racing is the choice of professional racers? JGTC, F1, Stock Cars among others? How would they be the choice of professionals if they are old inferior brembo designs?
just not sure I understand where that came from, from what I know AP is an independent 30yr old company based in coventry england... even if it was owned by brembo, if they were inferior, why would everyone use them?
01-08-2005, 05:43 AM
#67
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,883
Originally Posted by Armelius
Well I don't have any real issues with my brakes that would justify an upgrade. If anything on these cars need upgraded it would be the intake and starter.
01-08-2005, 09:30 AM
#68
A good bbk system would benefit a maxima more than an intake would
Originally Posted by Armelius
Well I don't have any real issues with my brakes that would justify an upgrade. If anything on these cars need upgraded it would be the intake and starter.
01-08-2005, 11:05 AM
#69
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,327
Originally Posted by Jeff92se
A good bbk system would benefit a maxima more than an intake would
Probably not mine. My intake is all ratty and deteiorated. If anything I would like to do to my brakes is add stainless steel lines. For the money of a brake upgrade I could probably get an engine rebuild and/or a y-pipe.
I keep looking at my '87 pathfinder intake and wonder how come they couldn't put a similar cold air intake stock. The air boxes sure take up a lot of real estate in the engine compartment and it's cheap ole plastic.
To topelement: No, I don't drive like a race car driver on the road. I stay at least two seconds behind the car in front of me and there are always people pulling in front of me to get in my lane so they can tailgate. I used the brakes in the snow going downhill (ice) not fun. Sometimes it felt like there was a problem with the brakes. My car with 240k miles getting 27.6 mpg doesn't seem like it needs the brake upgrade. Would much rather wait until the engine or automatic transmission goes then replace or fix that.
01-08-2005, 11:12 PM
#71
Oh... I guess I wasn't in on the joke. Looks like a serious enough of a conversation to me.
Originally Posted by TopElement
Jeff: Those quotes under Pat's SN are taken out of context. It's an inside joke about conversations we had when he was down here. Not at all serious.
For those who say stock maxima brakes are fine, you probably don't drive like many other people who mod their cars. I suppose some brakes may be regarded as status symbols, but if they perform as great as they do, what's wrong with that?
But I've been wrong all along. My brake systems suck and all brakes are the same. Game over.
For those who say stock maxima brakes are fine, you probably don't drive like many other people who mod their cars. I suppose some brakes may be regarded as status symbols, but if they perform as great as they do, what's wrong with that?
But I've been wrong all along. My brake systems suck and all brakes are the same. Game over.
01-09-2005, 11:07 PM
#72
I read that Matt93se played around with different rear pads to try to get more bias in the back. I for one was lucky enough to just be able to run a 1" larger rear rotor and a custom bbk bracket. Matt93se also has developed a custom bbk for the 4-5th gen guys.
I will guess that even though you could get the rears to bit slightly more with different pads, I doubt it would make that large of a difference vs a rear bbk setup.
I will guess that even though you could get the rears to bit slightly more with different pads, I doubt it would make that large of a difference vs a rear bbk setup.
Originally Posted by VQdriver
so is upgrading the rear pads to a higher coefficient set a valid theory to adjust brake balance slightly?
01-10-2005, 01:18 AM
#73
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,308
Originally Posted by Jeff92se
I read that Matt93se played around with different rear pads to try to get more bias in the back. I for one was lucky enough to just be able to run a 1" larger rear rotor and a custom bbk bracket. Matt93se also has developed a custom bbk for the 4-5th gen guys.
I will guess that even though you could get the rears to bit slightly more with different pads, I doubt it would make that large of a difference vs a rear bbk setup.
I will guess that even though you could get the rears to bit slightly more with different pads, I doubt it would make that large of a difference vs a rear bbk setup.
01-10-2005, 04:31 AM
#75
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,327
Originally Posted by VQdriver
so is upgrading the rear pads to a higher coefficient set a valid theory to adjust brake balance slightly?
Like I said I wouldn't do it. I could use a purchase of air tools more than brakes. Sure makes putting up a new roof a lot easier after a hurricane.
01-10-2005, 07:06 AM
#76
Originally Posted by TopElement
What data do you want? Would you like me to scan notepads with jottings of track evaluation results? Post CFD, stress and structural analysis software, and thermal distribution software screenhots with our own private data? Upload files with formulas and outcomes from the laptop? No.
Any time you're ready...
01-11-2005, 04:56 PM
#77
Read the post that contains info about proper brake bias.
Originally Posted by Armelius
That is a good question. All I know is rear brakes on front wheel drive cars get used a lot less than the front brakes. If you are using them less wouldn't it make more sense just to upgrade the fronts if you were inclined to do something like that?
01-12-2005, 11:09 AM
#80
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 236
i agreee the stock brakes suck. i dont have abs, and i have to like push the pedal down 1/4 way b4 its sticks. so i upgrade to front brembo rotors, and generic rear rotors, with akebono f/r pads. its alright, but its squeals alot. i think it squeals because of the rear rotors.........they suck. im juss gonna wait till i get some $$$$ to get the rear brakes from matt blehm....max