Ceasars Chariot

iTrader: (16)

1997 Nissan Maxima SE - 5 speed
( Warpspeed Y Pipe vs Cattman Headers ) track runs

This information will not be accurate like a dyno, but this is some track data I have kept since having the ypipe and having the cattman headers.

To Date: my best et is with a Warspeed Ypipe (aluminized mandrel bent) but as you can see by the chart I snagged a 14.161 in cooler temps, lower humidity, and with higher BP. So all the conditions were great for me to lay down a 14.1 with the ypipe.

Maybe putting up information like this in unfair due to so many factors at a dragway being different, but it is some sort of information you could look at and base a theory on, lol ! Again, dyno information would be much more accurate.


Key Facts:

1. The temperature was + 18 F, and + 21.6 F warmer when I ran the 1/4 mile with headers versus best et with ypipe.

2. The humidity was +10%, and +34% more when I ran the car with headers versus best et with ypipe.

Post up your thoughts on any of the topics below:

1. Headers vs Y-pipe

2. Is "The Chariot" actually a faster Maxima now, and on a day with the same low temps and humidity, do you see the Max running a lower e.t. than 14.16?

3. Judging by the hotter temps and higher humidity, do you think the temps were drasitic enough to effect et's ? We know cars dont perform as well in the heat.

97GLE

1. Well it certainly doesn't make the Y pipe look bad! The rest I'm hardly qualified to comment on.

Ceasars Chariot

iTrader: (16)

your right about that 97GLE, i also wanted to say im looking for honest thoughts , no sugar coated stuff where you think folks with headers will get upset. lets just have an open discussion

A Flood99

iTrader: (6)

it further shows w/ an NA car, the Y is just as good as having headers

i'm sure with similar weather conditions, both would still come out pretty equal

Zack342

iTrader: (89)

very nice..... alot of free time i see

JClaw

iTrader: (17)

Headers are only worth getting on a VQ35DE, where they give nearly 30WHP instead of 15.

Ninos_Maxima

iTrader: (5)

do you have a dyno analyisis

Caracicatriz

iTrader: (3)

I would think after the corrections for Temperature and humidity the times would be just about the same. My conclusion is that Headers are not worth the money. The only reason for them would be the sound. just my .02

NYC_Maxima97

Well I wouldn't bash the headers, you got the highest trap speed with them even though it came out to the lower time. But to me it means the car is making more HP with the headers. If you also consider the weather conditions, the header seems to be a good choice.... if it was only the same price as the y-pipe.

Ceasars Chariot

iTrader: (16)

im very interested in what the hotter temps could possible be doing. i think we are talking moderate changes in et but not sure. it could be anywhere in between: .05 -.2 if the weather was the same, i never had the chance to run the car in the same weather conditions.

any track regulars have some slips to see the difference in et's and mph your car makes in winter vs summer ?

NYC_Maxima97

What's coming down the pike in regards to mods? Gonna break into the 13s soon? Thats fuking tough

michaelnyden

iTrader: (15)

is there a direct correction factor or calculation for power reduction per degree F? or & humidity?

you could use that to guestimate in a way...

did you ever get your IM extrude honed yet?

I30tMikeD

iTrader: (8)

I have plenty of y-pipe/header comparison time slips. Same track, same weather conditions but the headers were not the only change so my results are not 100% accurate, but I feel they paint a good picture. I ran no faster with the headers...I actually ran slower.

Ceasars Chariot

iTrader: (16)

well, same here mike, i dont want to be to negative about the headers, i expected a wee bit more, out of them, the car just felt very strong, but 14.2 is 14.2.

So the next step of thought was maybe i was asking to much out of them since the weather condtions were not as good. But then again , how much different does the weather have to be ( hot vs cold) to make a difference.

im still really new to the whole drag racing thing and was just about to make a complete year, until the car had some problems and then i had to prepare to ship the car and move.

im wondering if with ypipe setup the car runs 14.4 in the summer and 14.2 in the winter. I have only ran 14.1 three times and only once at a NHRA track the other was a backwoods track. i need to dig deeper in the timeslips box and then do another check at underground weather to look for times in the same hit and match up a 2.1 6- foot.

Ceasars Chariot

iTrader: (16)

no dyno information. months ahead i had it all planned out, but when faced with getting the money up after purchasing and installing i just didnt have the money. once i get the chariot running again over here, im going to do a dyno for the fun of it.

Nismo87SE

Here is what I get, your WSP Y pipe runs had a DA' (Density Altitude) of -914ft and the engine makes 106.9% relative hp (SAE = 0.935). Now for your 4-28 run the DA' is 721ft while the engine makes 102.4% relative hp (SAE = 0.976). The 5-8 run has a DA' of 894ft engine makes 101.5% relative hp (SAE = 0.985).

What do these numbers mean, well your best with the Y was with great racing conditions. That day the engine was making an extra 4.5-5% power vs the best with the headers. There is no doubt that the headers are making more power than the Y pipe is. The problem is that the weather is pretty much removing any advantage, unless you correct for weather.

Chickan

iTrader: (12)

but even correcting for weather it doesn't seem like there is enough gain to justify the extra $600

BigLou93SE

iTrader: (10)

This is interesting

Ceasars Chariot

iTrader: (16)

Nismo87SE - can you correct for weather and see what you come up with ? maybe that is one complicated calculation, lol !

Even More Info:

Elevation: 15 ft
Car Weight: 3059 lbs with driver.

bgcease92

iTrader: (5)

well if the the headers are big difference from the y pipe on the 1/4 mile would guys still think it is a good investment for those who are s/c i was plannig on getting those purely because i saw someone else on another post mention there was like 20hp difference to the wheel with a sc than a sc with a y pipe i remeber this a couple monhs ago i called brain at cattman and he said there only two left before the will be on back order until he finds a new manufactuer in cali . i was going by these headers but for 832 plus shipping i was hopping for a n/a difference in the 1/4 times with them

Ceasars Chariot

iTrader: (16)

you may be right, im just trying to see if the car is actually faster with headers vs ypipe, but this track data has many variables. again a dyno would be the best bet but i didnt have a dyno with the ypipe setup so im not sure what i could compare ? lol


I believe the headers are in the 800 dollar area , and about 360 to install.
800
+360
______
$1160 - OUCH !

Ceasars Chariot

iTrader: (16)

its a tough call ? im trying to squeeze some power out of them, lol, looking over these 1/4 mile runs. it appears the car is faster, but a run of 14.0, or seeing more runs of 14.2, and 14.1 would have made me more confident. Again, the weather could be the main factor (hot vs cold) in holding the car back. So there is really no way to tell (at the track) unless the same temps, humid, bp, and 60ft is matched. Even then you have shift points to consider, lol !

deezo

iTrader: (3)

I don't have any time slips anymore but the difference is huge. When I was stock running at a track in Maryland, I ran 16.XX all day long. The temp was in the 80's and humid. My fastest track time was run in 45 degree dry weather.

bgcease92

iTrader: (5)

i hope we could straighten this out so i dont waste my 832 buckson them but i going sc anyway but i wanna makw sure i wasn't mistaken but the dyno numbers a saw when it was dyno with the sc

deezo

iTrader: (3)

The headers as well as the VI have greater gains with boost than with NA. I guess it all depends on your future projects.

bgcease92

iTrader: (5)

yeah i wish u were ny to go to the track in are weather its freezing in ny i would see some decent numbers hopefully when i get mine i post my number when i go to the track i plan on going next week end if it stops snowing

bgcease92

iTrader: (5)

i have the vi and i ported and polished my lower manifold i cant wait to get this s/c and see what i could do

bgcease92

iTrader: (5)

i post numbers as soon as i am up and runnig with it

MaximA StyLeZ

iTrader: (11)

so u ran 14.1 just with a ypipe ? everything else stock ? if so, thats really good

I30tMikeD

iTrader: (8)

No, the y-pipe is just the comparison. Many other mods were involved. It is not possible to run a 14.1 with just a y-pipe......one would need to pull like a 1.6 60 foot to do that.

I30tMikeD

iTrader: (8)

That was a SC maxima which is a whole different situation. So you bought headers for an NA car based on what a SC car did with them. Not to bright.

Ceasars Chariot

iTrader: (16)

Mod List Here:
http://www.ceasarschariot.com/modslist.html

just swapping ypipe runs with header runs all other things the same on the car.

Ceasars Chariot

iTrader: (16)

agreed, we are not talking about much for the money on n/a. the ypipe is still the best bang for the buck, also everyones car may be set up a little different. I was just looking at my max and this track info to see what some other people thought.

bgcease92

iTrader: (5)

no you misread what i said i am going supercharged i didn't buy the headers yet but i saw the results the sc max did that the only reason i wanted those headers becuase of the results of the s/c max with headers vs s/c max and y-pipe.

Dave B

NismoSE's calculated DAs are correct. On 4/28 your VQ was working as if it were at 700' above sea level vs the run at 2/18 where it was at -900' below sea level. That's a 1600' swing in total DA elevation. So utiltizing the NHRA correction factor chart for 1600' above sea level, we get the following:

ET
14.299X.9822 = 14.05

MPH
98.05X1.012 = 99.22mph

So there you go, a corrected run to a 14.05@99.22mph which is fractionally quicker and somewhat faster than your 2/18 run. Keep in mind this is only a correction factor and it isn't the Gospel. Correction factors are usually a bit optimistic.

Seeing that Mike is also an avid racer and good driver and he saw no improvement with the headers, I'm left to assume that headers do little or nothing for these cars until proven differently on the track or dyno.

I30tMikeD

iTrader: (8)

Sorry. You will love them with a SC! StephenMax was the one who went to the dyno with them on his SC max and he is a very, very reliable source.

Ceasars Chariot

iTrader: (16)

dave thats some good stuff, but i know exactly what you mean, until i run something to beat my PB, then its all just small talk. while i havent beat the pb with headers, it just looked like something might be going on in my favor with the new setup, but no proof so to speak.

and as agreed on, for the money, these headers are not doing a whole lot. they sound great, and look good, I like them, but when comparing to a ypipe , it just doesnt make sense to go this route (N/A) unless you are loaded with cash , or you just want to be different.

dave thanks for those calculations and mike thanks for your input as well.

krismax

iTrader: (15)

I think that its to open for the hp the 3.0 is pushing ,now if you go up higher rpm put a VI on and get some good cams im sure there would be a noticable gain.

Theres a V W drag car in sport compact with a vr 6 in it. The guy who owns it said that going from 2.5 inch exhaust to 2 1/4 gained them 8 whp . So this shows me to much flow can hurt.

I just think that you'll need alot of air flow to see good gains over our stock.
Like a 3.5 with many good mods

Torgus

iTrader: (10)

and i got crap in the hotshot header thread for saying they are worthless. ha ha ha. lame.
Small NA engines gain little with headers...at least from what i'v seen i thought that it is a known fact...i wonder why people would think differently...

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

Ceasar, I believe the main difference you are seeing in track results is due to weather. Humidity and especially temperature play a big role in the power your car makes. On a N/A VQ30, Cattman headers seem to make about 5-8 hp/tq over a y-pipe, depending on the car and other mods etc. This is coming from my own dyno results--comparing headers vs stock--not versus y-pipe unfortunately, but as far as I know, a y-pipe usually doesn't make more than 15 hp/tq on most N/A VQ30's.

The following are my dyno results (headers vs stock). The numbers (taken from the run file) basically break down like this:

Max gain (HP/TQ): 20/20.1
Gain at peak (HP/TQ): 19.4/16.0

Avg. gain from 2000 to 4000 rpm (HP/TQ): 3.9/6.6
Avg. gain from 3000 to 6000 rpm (HP/TQ): 12.0/13.3
Avg. gain from 3500 to 6000 rpm (HP/TQ): 13.4/14.3
Avg. gain from 4000 to 6000 rpm (HP/TQ): 15.3/15.9
Avg. gain from 4500 to 6000 rpm (HP/TQ): 17.1/17.1

That was before adding intake, catback etc... opening up things even more.

Let's say it's only 5 hp/tq at most over a y-pipe. That's probably not worth the extra cost for most people with N/A VQ30's. I got mine for $695 and installed them myself so it wasn't overly expensive but I realize that won't be the case for everyone.

The bottom line, I think, is that a 5 hp/tq difference is observable on a dyno but on a track with all the other variables coming into play it's a negligible difference. I believe the headers are a much more worthwhile investment if you have a larger engine (ie. VQ35) or with mods like a VI and cams (as krismax mentioned) and possibly if you're using FI (ie. S/C). So Ceasar, *technically* your car is probably faster, but you may not really notice it much in the 1/4 mile as there's just too many other variables that can quickly cancel a 5 hp increase.

PS--I just posted this quickly but if anyone wants to see the above run files I can post them later