figgskzoo

I've been suffering with this spin/pop/sputter/spin/nearly-stop-spinning/pop/sputter/spin/pop/..........finally start for about a year. The Mrs. wouldn't drive her Max so my Suby ended up getting the miles piled on it. I finally tired of watching my Suby's odo and searched out this thread. Let me say this - any post in this thread that suggests you do anything before running the supplementary grounds is pure, 100% bunkum. Do the grounds first! It worked like an absolute champ for me! Starts sweet now.

Ground #1 - directly from batt(-) to front of motor block, bypassing that little metal bracket it used to hook upon and detaching the mid-wire chassis bolt - original 2ga wire
Ground #2 - directly from batt(-) to where the original batt(-) hooked to the chassis near the battery tray - 19" of 4ga wire
Ground #3 - directly from batt(-) to upper starter bolt - 24" of 4ga wire
Ground #4 - directly from front of motor block (where ground #1 attaches) to 8 o'clock (looking at tranny from drivers side wheel-well) tranny-to-motor-block bolt - 19" of 4ga wire

All three bat cables acquired at Wally-World - ~$20

Want pics?

mholhut

Pics would be great... but I've already been the ground cable route. It solved the problem temporarily... then the hard starts returned. I just changed the KS because that was the only code in memory after clearing the Crank REF and MAF codes. The KS was cracked on the side. Now the car starts fine about 85% of the time. Still something wrong.

Please post your pics though... I'd like to double check my work.

mholhut

After dealing with this for over a year, I think it's finally solved. I left the car out over night and in the morning it wouldn't start... it would crank, skip, crank, yet never fire. Had it towed to a mechanic and I went over the history with him. He had it fixed that day. The car starts great now.

Even though the tranny had been replaced, additional ground wires were installed, ignition switch, knock sensor, front crank pos sensor, ECT sensor, and starter were all replaced and the car still cranked like it did in the video on youtube, it turned out to be the rear Crankshaft Position
Sensor. Just food for thought.

Thank God this is over with...

HandsonMaxima.

iTrader: (2)

where is the rear crankshaft sensor located?

figgskzoo

Please keep us posted as this problem seems to creep back on everyone, including me.

96gxe5spd

iTrader: (1)

Is that the CPS on the bellhousing or the one at the crank pulley? Or is it a different sensor that I didn't know about?

figgskzoo

good question - I was wondering that same thing myself.

cashoit

I think its in the thread somewhere. THere are 2 crankshafts...one lower pulley side and one transmission side...check the FSM for a pic. Pmhor has pics too

96gxe5spd

iTrader: (1)

I know where they are, read my post one more time. He called it the "back CPS". I just wouldn't call the location of either CPS the "back" side of the engine. Just asking which one he means.

12 pages, 450 posts and counting...doesn't narrow it down much, but nice try!

figgskzoo

does 'rear' imply bell housing side?

96gxe5spd

iTrader: (1)

Hadn't considered that. LOL. Haven't messed with enough RWD cars to line my brain up that way. But that does make sense.

figgskzoo

Prolly a total PITA to get at...esp. in this 14° weather in Michigan.

MikeJL

OK, the fellow that says you should try to add grounds first before changing anything is the best first remedy attempt for this problem. This is a long story but I think it is worth it.

In a nutshell, assuming the cause is not a sensor malfunction (or broken sensor wiring), the engine is behaving with at least two of these initial conditions:

1. Over the past few months or more, the engine cranking before start has lengthened. "It doesn't start like it used to"
2. The engine acts as though it is resisting the starter and actually stops the starter dead in it's tracks at times.
3. The engine runs great after it starts.
4. You recently changed out a tranny / clutch ie: you disassembled the bell housing from the engine.
5. your starter doesn't have the pep it used to.
6. The car is older (don't tell that to the car)

All or some of these conditions is caused by a weak or high resistance ground somewhere in the path between the starter and the battery. Contrary to what may seem intuitive, the electrons that flow in the battery circuit actually flow from the negative terminal to the positive terminal in a battery. The positive terminal is + Positive because it has fewer electrons than the - Negative terminal. When the circuit is completed (starter turns on) the circuit wants to go to equilibrium and the excess electrons flow to the positive terminal from the battery negative terminal.

OK so now how do these electrons get to the starter? Well in the infinite wisdom of trying to save money on car costs by manufacturers, the manufacturers decided many years ago to do away with the negative wires on cars (in many general cases like lights, horns, sensors and the like). This led to the idea for the car manufacturers to make the body of the car and engine, tranny etc) the negative cable from the battery. In essence the car itself acted as one big wire from the battery negative cable to the devices in the car. Connect a bulb to any + power wire in the car and the other terminal to any metal body part and the bulb will light. This confirms that there is a direct connection to the negative terminal of the battery.

As a car ages, the connections to the car body or engine or transmission degrade and become corroded. This corrosion impedes the flow of these powerful electrons from the battery to the device being operated (sensor, starter, light, horn, etc). Couple that to the inherent properties of corroded, poor conducting aluminum and you have the beginning of a slow but ever increasing problem.

Now the best part: The car runs fine but the engine has a problem only during starts and sometimes intermittent at that....This 'only during a start' tells you that the starter is involved in the problem - but it is not the cause. You see when the starter cranks it draws a relatively enormous amount of power (amps) through the ground of the starter through the motor of the starter through the positive battery cable. In most cases, the path of electrons is from the negative battery cable to a point on the engine block through the bell housing seam on the engine to the flange of the starter motor (bolts included). Just think, if I were to place an electrical insulator between the engine and the bellhousing joined to the engine would there be a negative path for the electrons to flow to the starter? No not at all (excluding bolts).

So, when your starter is acting sluggish or burns out (because it was designed to operate with a full clean connection to the negative terminal) it makes sense that the reason is a poor connection to the engine - the place where the connection to the negative battery - electron source is made via the engine block to negative battery terminal.

Phew! we are almost there hang in!

Now with a poor or highly resistive connection to ground (through the engine block to bell housing to starter motor flange), the starter "hogs" all of the available electrons to turn the starter motor over. So what about the sensors? What is left for them to tell the ECU when to fire or which cylinder to fire or which cylinder to inject, or when to inject, or when is Top Dead center? The answer: too little. It gets even worse in cold weather when the engine is stiff and the starter takes even more power to turn the engine over. Even more power is robbed and the sensors have even less to work with.

It's like trying to do 50# curls while running uphill...the curls and the speed of the run both slow down.

In an engine system, the sensors typically detect around 0-5 volts. But as the poor connection 'robs' the sensors of say 6 volts, it makes it much harder for the ECM to "see" the intented signals from the sensors resulting in wrong signals. This is the voltage loss in the starter circuit.

It is like two people taking a shower in a house from the same hot water tank. The fellow with the bigger pipe or closer to the tank (first floor) gets all the hot water while the other on the top floor freezes because his shower is too far away.

What happens when the first floor shower is shut off? Does the guy on the second floor get hot water? Of course he does. And just like our engines, the moment the car starts and the starter is shut off, all returns to normal and there are plenty of electrons / voltage for the sensors.

Have you noticed this problem often happens after a tranny or clutch job? What happened? Easy: the engine to bellhousing / tranny joint was not properly cleaned and reconnected to make a good electrical contact and chances are cleanliness was not even on your mind when you bolted everything back together! Tell me who cleans their hands under a tranny!

OK OK enough already I believe you got the picture. So how do we solve this?

I would do this in this order (do one at a time) and try each step to see if it works before going to the next:

1. Put a new negative battery cable in the car. If the battery cable is highly resistive due to green corroded crimped ends it may 'rob' the engine block of electrons needed to operate the sensors and the starter simultaneously. Put the cable in - in 2 sections: from the battery to the body ground then from the body ground to the engine block.
2. Run a ground to the larger bolt of the starter from the body ground in step 1.
3. Run a ground from the body ground above to the Bell housing bolt at about the 10 o'clock position looking at the rear of the engine. Stay away from the Crank POS sensor becasue of EMI (another long story not for now).
4. So now you have four wires under the bolt at the body ground - no problem - be neat and make sure they are all laid flat against one another.
5. Lastly, run a smaller wire - say 12 ga to the engine sensor / ECM ground on the air intake collector (FSM 118 and 119 grounding points) where there are 4 black wires under 2 screws - 2 each screw). This shouldn't be a problem but it is easy. Connect this right to the negative battery terminal bolt.

OK, so this should work if you have a grounding problem due to old age. In fact, what you just accomplished is a one, two, three or quadruple bypass surgery for grounds. In each case you "bypassed" the original ground path - but who is counting?

Of course the best way to solve the problem is to completely disassemble the engine, tranny, bellhousing, starter, alternator, etc etc, clean and reassemble - but com'on who does this?

Remember: Aluminum is a great conductor but only when new and bright clean! Aluminum oxide does not conduct and this is the root of the problem that we need to deal with.

I have run out of words....good luck!

PS use NO-OX-ID A Special conductive grease on your ground connections - good stuff - electrical supply places should have this.

jayc

NO LUCK!!!!! i ran a 2/0 cable from strater 17mm bolt to front engine block ground and a second 1/0 cable from body ground just below the battery tray to driver side tranny bellhousing 12mm bolt sanded and clean the from battery to body ground and the one from there to the engine block also the oem ground on the tranny notice the crank sensor has a tiny file down spot on the magnetic face wire look kind of crimp the one that ran to it (sub harness) my car it just crank sputer crank sputer car was running b4 tranny swop.

figgskzoo

Did you run a new, supplementary ground to the computer grounds? Did you clean the computer grounds? They're on top of the intake/font valve cover. An ealier post in this thread outlines where they are and what to do. Assuredly, your problem is electrical. Keep on trying, you'll get it.

mholhut

Sorry for not posting back sooner...

The CPS that was replaced on my car was the "rear" one... tranny side. I replaced the front one previously (located near the pully's) because it was the easiest one to get to and cheaper of the two CPS's.

The one that fixed the hard start problem for me was, as stated, the "rear" tranny side CPS. 4 months, almost to the day, since it was changed and not a single starting problem since. Starts like a champ every time.

I agree that the inexpensive solution to one of the hard-start problems would be a good ground setup especially after tranny/clutch work. But if it returns, it's one of the CPS's. In my case it was the rear one. I don't know where it's located specifically though.

This is the pully-side CPS sensor.



This is the rear CPS sensor, my culprit:





Hope the info helps!

jayc

it want hurt to try any thing at the moment cant give up on this grouning thing. starter is turning really hot from the extended cranking that have been going on, all this problem started after a tranny swop

C MAX

iTrader: (4)

did you sand down the contacts points on the tranny and motor before installing it, the ground was broke. i would try swapping the starter if you havent already, and see if that helps, you might have just burned it out also from too much cranking. also make sure your crank sensor connector is working properly, sometimes from the pulling the wires when swapping the tranny the wires come loose inside the connector itself.

cashoit

the CPS is the camshaft position sensor.

the CKPS is the crankshaft position sensor. 2 of them, CKPS POS and REF. THe CKPS POS is the rear sensor that we are referring to. It detects engine speed. Its points toward the flywheel and can get covered with metal shavings. Remove the sensor (one bolt) and inspect it for fouling. Replace if necessary

jayc

[quote=jayc;7455128]NO LUCK!!!!! i ran a 2/0 cable from strater 17mm bolt to front engine block ground and a second 1/0 cable from body ground just below the battery tray to driver side tranny bellhousing 12mm bolt sanded and clean the from battery to body ground and the one from there to the engine block also the oem ground on the tranny notice the crank sensor has a tiny file down spot on the magnetic face wire look kind of crimp the one that ran to it (sub harness) my car it just crank sputer crank sputer car was running b4 tranny swop. in the earlier post meant the CKPS pos sensor had a tiny scar on it ?? there is a lil bracket there it goes in front or back of this 3'' bracket. now i just check my CKPS (ref) sensor pully side it is covered in oil from a leak on sensor and harness cleanede it up but starter is bummed now (toast)

jayc

did not sand down the contacts points on the tranny and motor before installing it my crank sensor connector is working properly had to take starter out and found two problem bolts one slack and one missing altogether so i will seperate motor and tranny to sand and clean any ideas o how too /spec on bolt torque tightness.

jayc

More problem !!!! on closer inspection there where two missing bolts and three slack ones and now it gets worst on doing a complete perimeter check for slack bolts notice there's a piece crack off the engine bellhousing about 2.5" in diameter its below the starter fire wall side dont think its close to a bolt hole and dont no if its the mechanic fault, i look into all of this due to the mechanic being busy and tell me to buy sensors ckps pos .after reading alot of threads on the forums, i got more insight than my mechanic wow kudos to every one here, decide to drop the tranny now to get it sanded and clean (tranny and engine bell housing) really want to know if the 2.5" hole is going to affect (1)starting (2) mobile driving (3) ground problem &(4) be an issue for debris and fluids.

CEASE225

In addition to adding grounds, remove tranny bolts, brush the bolts and tranny bolt area with a firm wire brush and wipe away dust with a rag, add dilectric tune up grease to the thread ,and where the ground wire contacts the bolt and tranny. Had this same problem for 10 months and a $3 wire brush and $4 tube of dilectric grease solved the problem 100% . Adding grounds helped the car to start quicker but cleaning the bolts made the car start like brand new!!

ps i only cleaned 3 bolts

antti

I felt I just had to come show this. Well. I had the same problem,starting was really awful,I measured every single sensor,wire,relay,everything. Changed few starters as they always went bad cause of too much starting. I added 50mm2 ground wires every where,there was like 10 of them,no use. I was desperate and ready to drive the car off the cliff. But then I took the tranny out and this is what it looked like:



http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...0026_large.jpg

Sanded it down and after that it started perfectly,that was 6 months ago,and not a single problem since.

Gary Mastro

Great thread, folks -- thanks for all the info.

My problem now, several months after I replaced starter, ig switch, ig relay and a couple other things I've forgotten, is that the starter spins continuously and does not engage. It continues spinning with the key in the off position requiring battery disconnection.

Does that sound like a bad ignition switch?

Thanks again.

96gxe5spd

iTrader: (1)

If ignition switch were bad, starter wouldn't do anything. I had the same thing happen weeks after I put a new starter in. As it turns out, these came with two different tooth counts on the gear. I think 11 and 13 but can't be sure off the top of my head. Anyway I got an 11 tooth when I needed a 13, and it worked fine till everything started wearing in, then just starter spin.

Pull the starter back out and take it back, most likely they gave you the wrong part.

Gary Mastro

Ok, but I don't think that explains why the starter continues to spin even with the key off. To me, that sounds like an issue with the switch since it's continuing to direct current even though it's in the off position ... hmmm ...

96gxe5spd

iTrader: (1)

Oops missed that bit. Could be the switch, the relay, or the solenoid. Gut instinct says solenoid, not real sure why.

mholhut

Exact same thing happened to me last month on my 91 SHO... Starter would lock while spinning. turned out to be the solenoid.

Gary Mastro

Very good, thanks. Would it keep spinning even after the key was turned off?

bobflood

If the solenoid is not kicking back and interrupting the starter circuit, it could keep spinning even with key off. I agree with previous posters that it could be solenoid, ignition switch or starter relay. Next time it hangs up, reach in and whack the solenoid and see if that stops it. If so, that's your problem. If not, any one of the three things is relatively quick and inexpensive to replace. If you have to just parts swap, start with relay because its easiest and cheapest. Then do the ignition switch, assuming hitting solenoid didn't work. You can replace the electrical part of the ignition switch without changing the key cylinder.

Gary Mastro

Got it, thanks! Will report results.

Gary Mastro

Sure enough, the starter was the culprit.

I banged on the solenoid, reconnected the battery, and it started right up. So pulled the starter and exchanged it at AutoZone. New one has been performing well ... so far.

Thanks again.

bobflood

And thank you for reporting back results! This forum works a lot better when folks close out their issues.

98maxima76

98 Maxima - exhibiting starting problems for the past 3 months. Sometimes it would start fine. Other times the started would engage but it wouldn't start right away. Replaced the negative battery cable that leads to the starter. Positive cable is clean. Went out to the car yesterday and battery was dead.

Nothing worked. No security light either. Went to get a new battery and installed it a few hours ago. Turn the key and nothing. No dome light, no security light.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

cashoit

did u have to jiggle keys in ignition. Could be ignition switch. Check relays in fusible link box too under the hood.

98maxima76

Don't have to jiggle keys in ignition. I installed a brand new battery this afternoon and the dome light doesn't even light up. I'm thinking its a grounding issue?

I will check the fuses though.

drn

This forum rocks. Have been a member for quite some time but hadn't needed to visit for several years (my 99 GXE has almost been flawless ) so forgot my user ID and password so just started over last month.

Came back to visit when the Max wouldn't start a few weeks after I replaced the starter. Seemed strange to me since I hadn't had an issue EVER.

Thought is was a fuel problem, but ruled that out. Came to the forum and searched for Crankshaft angle sensor (that was my next guess) and stumbled upon this thread about the ground issue.

So I gave it a try yesterday since this fix would be tens of dollars instead of potentially hundreds of dollars and it worked!

First replaced the two ground cables to the body and the engine but that wasn't enough. Then added a ground to the starter and that was enough.

Thanks, friends, for sharing your experiences. Saved me bunches of money. I should say you saved my youngest daughter bunches of money. She now drives the Maxima, but I still miss it.

98maxima76

Just to close the loop (hopefully)...I cleaned all of the grounds and I believe the issue was corrosion on the 2 plugs at the positive battery post. Both plugs were corroded so bad that I broke the plastic and had to cut and put on new connectors.

Ratbert90

You can add me to the list of people that got their car fixed thanks to this thread. Two 12 gauge wires from the starter -> battery -> Transmission.