Spacer for 4th gen?
Spacer for 4th gen?
Is there an engine spacer for the 4th gen max? My friend has one for his g35 and it seems to give decent gains especially for the price. Is there anything like this for the 4th gen?
Again, totally different concept. The spacer for the non-revup G35/350Z works because with the stock IM design the front two cylinders are starved for air. Increasing the plenum volume via a spacer alleviates this problem. You WON'T see similar gains from this, especially with a USIM. Might get some low end torque, but you won't be seeing gains throughout the rev-range like with RWD VQ35's.
Again, totally different concept. The spacer for the non-revup G35/350Z works because with the stock IM design the front two cylinders are starved for air. Increasing the plenum volume via a spacer alleviates this problem. You WON'T see similar gains from this, especially with a USIM. Might get some low end torque, but you won't be seeing gains throughout the rev-range like with RWD VQ35's.
I know it's a totally different motor, but on my old Accord we had the choice of 3 IMs: the stock F22A (aka the USDM VQ30), the 2 stage F22A6 (aka the MEVI) and the 2 stage H23A/H22A (aka the 2KIM).... they made power in that order, and the H23A IM was the best solely because of the additional plenum volume it had over the F22A6 mani. In fact, the runners on the A6 and H23 manis were interchangeable; the only difference between the two were TB bolt patterns and the significant volume increase of the H23...
I personally think the USDM VQ30 IM could use some more plenum volume. I would bet, besides all the logistics issues, that that's the only diff between the MEVI and the 2KIM, which accounts for the 2KIM's power advantage...
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,572
From: Middleboro/Carver, Ma
Again, totally different concept. The spacer for the non-revup G35/350Z works because with the stock IM design the front two cylinders are starved for air. Increasing the plenum volume via a spacer alleviates this problem. You WON'T see similar gains from this, especially with a USIM. Might get some low end torque, but you won't be seeing gains throughout the rev-range like with RWD VQ35's.
PS: Increasing runner length typically boosts lower end torque, hence why the USIM manifold is so punchy in the low to mid-range. It has long runners and very little plenum volume. To raise high RPM power the trend is to shorten runner length and increase plenum volume. Furthermore, the USIM is not resonance tuned so it wouldn't be affected in the same way. Low end torque would be increased but you wouldn't see any top-end gains since plenum volume would not be increased.
I will respectfully disagree with that. In any case, that's NOT the reason why the spacers work so well particularly with the 350Z/G35 IM. Check the original post. RWD VQ35 spacers add torque throughout the rev-range unlike spacers in other configurations. Their front two cylinders are starved for air from the factory. Apples and oranges.
PS: Increasing runner length typically boosts lower end torque, hence why the USIM manifold is so punchy in the low to mid-range. It has long runners and very little plenum volume. To raise high RPM power the trend is to shorten runner length and increase plenum volume. Furthermore, the USIM is not resonance tuned so it wouldn't be affected in the same way. Low end torque would be increased but you wouldn't see any top-end gains since plenum volume would not be increased.
PS: Increasing runner length typically boosts lower end torque, hence why the USIM manifold is so punchy in the low to mid-range. It has long runners and very little plenum volume. To raise high RPM power the trend is to shorten runner length and increase plenum volume. Furthermore, the USIM is not resonance tuned so it wouldn't be affected in the same way. Low end torque would be increased but you wouldn't see any top-end gains since plenum volume would not be increased.
I do know from experience though that all things equal, increasing plenum volume will boost top end w/o affecting low end at all. From what I remember, the VQ IM is split right at where the runners start... so a spacer would only increase plenum volume, unless I'm wrong.
I really wanna just get the 2KIM... but it looks like it's hard to get working correctly...
I'm trying to see a picture of a disassembled VQ30 IM...
I do know from experience though that all things equal, increasing plenum volume will boost top end w/o affecting low end at all. From what I remember, the VQ IM is split right at where the runners start... so a spacer would only increase plenum volume, unless I'm wrong.
I really wanna just get the 2KIM... but it looks like it's hard to get working correctly...
I do know from experience though that all things equal, increasing plenum volume will boost top end w/o affecting low end at all. From what I remember, the VQ IM is split right at where the runners start... so a spacer would only increase plenum volume, unless I'm wrong.
I really wanna just get the 2KIM... but it looks like it's hard to get working correctly...
I don't know what you're remembering but it's not the design of the VQ30 intake manifold - the VQ30 intake manifold is all one piece. You can't increase the volume of the plenum unless you were to take a sawz-all to it and saw it in half and then add material, reweld, etc. Obviously that would be completely retarded. All you could possibly do would be marginally increase the length of the intake runners by installing a spacer between the lower intake manifold and upper intake manifold which would - if anything - increase the low-mid range and further decrease the top end.
The 350Z intake manifold spacers work on the concept of increasing plenum volume so that the front two cylinders get the airflow they need. The VQ30 IM isn't designed like that.
I don't know what you're remembering but it's not the design of the VQ30 intake manifold - the VQ30 intake manifold is all one piece. You can't increase the volume of the plenum unless you were to take a sawz-all to it and saw it in half and then add material, reweld, etc. Obviously that would be completely retarded. All you could possibly do would be marginally increase the length of the intake runners by installing a spacer between the lower intake manifold and upper intake manifold which would - if anything - increase the low-mid range and further decrease the top end.
The 350Z intake manifold spacers work on the concept of increasing plenum volume so that the front two cylinders get the airflow they need. The VQ30 IM isn't designed like that.
The 350Z intake manifold spacers work on the concept of increasing plenum volume so that the front two cylinders get the airflow they need. The VQ30 IM isn't designed like that.
IIRC it has been discussed to try and alleviate some of the MEVIs mid range loss....But then again adding a little more low end to a MEVIed max wouldnt be to bad...I think spacers would really only help the MEVI-00VI guys though...
All adding a spacer between the LIM and UIM would do (regardless of which manifold you are referring to) is increase runner length, improving low and mid-range torque. In the case of the MEVI, if you added a spacer between the manifold itself and the resonance chamber cover then you might improve top-end power.
As far as improving the MEVI's mid-range torque, making the butterfly valves flush with the runners would do the trick IMO. Someone needs to try this.
As far as improving the MEVI's mid-range torque, making the butterfly valves flush with the runners would do the trick IMO. Someone needs to try this.
All adding a spacer between the LIM and UIM would do (regardless of which manifold you are referring to) is increase runner length, improving low and mid-range torque. In the case of the MEVI, if you added a spacer between the manifold itself and the resonance chamber cover then you might improve top-end power.
As far as improving the MEVI's mid-range torque, making the butterfly valves flush with the runners would do the trick IMO. Someone needs to try this.
As far as improving the MEVI's mid-range torque, making the butterfly valves flush with the runners would do the trick IMO. Someone needs to try this.
All adding a spacer between the LIM and UIM would do (regardless of which manifold you are referring to) is increase runner length, improving low and mid-range torque. In the case of the MEVI, if you added a spacer between the manifold itself and the resonance chamber cover then you might improve top-end power.
As far as improving the MEVI's mid-range torque, making the butterfly valves flush with the runners would do the trick IMO. Someone needs to try this.
As far as improving the MEVI's mid-range torque, making the butterfly valves flush with the runners would do the trick IMO. Someone needs to try this.
Or would it involve repositioning the BF valves?
Last edited by bigpulve+; Nov 13, 2007 at 02:43 PM.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,572
From: Middleboro/Carver, Ma
But I still disagree with you that there is no resonance effect taking place that can be altered
OK, since no-one has mentioned this yet, I geuss I'll be the first to point this out-
The primary benefit of aarons 3rd & 5.5 gen spacers is in the reduction of temps, which they do an INCREDIBLE job at.
Last edited by KRRZ350; Nov 13, 2007 at 04:18 PM.
I should've said it's not resonance tuned for high RPM power like the MEVI or 00VI. It is tuned for mid-range torque since that is where VE is at its highest. At least we can agree that adding a spacer between the LIM and plenum would be counterproductive as far as top end power is concerned.
Oh crap, I just realized my 'typo', ok it wasn't a typo, I realized I was thinking about it all *** backwards. Wow. Yeah, I got it now, duhr. Longer = more time for the resonance frequency to return to the valve, better for when the interval between intake openings is longer. Duhr.
But I still disagree with you that there is no resonance effect taking place that can be altered
OK, since no-one has mentioned this yet, I geuss I'll be the first to point this out-
The primary benefit of aarons 3rd & 5.5 gen spacers is in the reduction of temps, which they do an INCREDIBLE job at.
But I still disagree with you that there is no resonance effect taking place that can be altered
OK, since no-one has mentioned this yet, I geuss I'll be the first to point this out-
The primary benefit of aarons 3rd & 5.5 gen spacers is in the reduction of temps, which they do an INCREDIBLE job at.
If we have the ability to expand the MEVI's plenum that would prob. put it on equal footing with the 00VI. Though, with the abundance of the 00VI why get the MEVI?
Wouldn't the plastic 00VI already do a much better job resisting heat than the other generations' aluminum manifolds? Is this part of the reason Aaron has not made a spacer for the de-k?
Just to let everyone know, NWP Engineering is currently designing a Phenolic Intake Spacer Kit for the VQ30DE Maxima. It is a completely different concept than the 350z and G35s.
We currently have kits for the 3rd gen (VE and VG motors) and VQ35DE FWD appplications such as the Maxima, Altima, Murano, Quest, and I35.
The concept behind our spacers is to reduce intake manifold temps along with lengthening the intake runners, which provide a gain in low end and midrange power. By lengthening the intake runners, in theory, that will shift the torque band lower resulting in less top end power. But due to the fact that our spacers are port matched and provide a 40+ degree temperature drop, top end power is not hindered at all! In fact, in the VE, top end power is greatly increased because of eliminating heat soak.
We still have a lot of testing to do on the 4th gen to make sure there is an overall power gain. We won't release a product unless it produces honest performance gains.
We currently have kits for the 3rd gen (VE and VG motors) and VQ35DE FWD appplications such as the Maxima, Altima, Murano, Quest, and I35.
The concept behind our spacers is to reduce intake manifold temps along with lengthening the intake runners, which provide a gain in low end and midrange power. By lengthening the intake runners, in theory, that will shift the torque band lower resulting in less top end power. But due to the fact that our spacers are port matched and provide a 40+ degree temperature drop, top end power is not hindered at all! In fact, in the VE, top end power is greatly increased because of eliminating heat soak.
We still have a lot of testing to do on the 4th gen to make sure there is an overall power gain. We won't release a product unless it produces honest performance gains.
But I can say this much, the 4th gen kit will have a functioning EGR system or the kit will not be produced.
The EGR system will be functional or these spacers won't be developed. The reason being is that most areas in the US have OBDII emissions standards. It would not be worth making this product unless people can pass emissions with these spacers.
We have already gotten around the EGR tube problem. This kit is looking very hopeful for the 4th genners that have been so patient. I can't say much more on the actual design, but the costs are going to be kept at a bare minimum. So far, this kit does not appear that it will cost more than the VQ35DE kit. Even though this kit hasn't been easy to design, we are trying to keep the costs the same if not below the VQ35 kit. One thing that is certain is that quality will not be sacrificed at any cost!
We have already gotten around the EGR tube problem. This kit is looking very hopeful for the 4th genners that have been so patient. I can't say much more on the actual design, but the costs are going to be kept at a bare minimum. So far, this kit does not appear that it will cost more than the VQ35DE kit. Even though this kit hasn't been easy to design, we are trying to keep the costs the same if not below the VQ35 kit. One thing that is certain is that quality will not be sacrificed at any cost!
We haven't done any testing just yet. But we expect the gains to be similar to the VQ35DE kit. Even though the 4th gen has a thick rubber UIM gasket, the UIM still gets VERY hot. In fact, the 4th gen UIM is among the hottest intake manifolds I've ever tested! So there should definitely be worthwhile gains with these spacers!
What about the 00VI? Will its plastic construction get as hot as the 4th gen aluminum?
Originally Posted by mowgli29
What about the 00VI? Will its plastic construction get as hot as the 4th gen aluminum?
The main prototype design is complete. The drawings for the actual spacer design is still in the works. We are probably looking at 2 months. If there are no further delays in the design process, we hope to have the prototype fully tested by the end of this year! Then it will only take about 2-3 weeks to complete the production batch of spacers. So mid Jan 2008 is my best guess.
The plastic 00VI definitely doesn't get as hot as the aluminum 4th gen manifold. But it's still possible that the 00-01s can see gains from spacers due to them being port matched and eliminating the stock IMs. I can't say if there will be a gain or not with the 00-01 Maximas until all dyno and temp testing is complete.
The plastic 00VI definitely doesn't get as hot as the aluminum 4th gen manifold. But it's still possible that the 00-01s can see gains from spacers due to them being port matched and eliminating the stock IMs. I can't say if there will be a gain or not with the 00-01 Maximas until all dyno and temp testing is complete.
The biggest gains are the decrease in temps and improving airflow by eliminating the stock gaskets and putting in a port matched spacer. So, these spacers should definitely show noticeable gains with the MEVI.
Yes I do. The intake runners are only increased by a 1/4". That is the current plan for the VQ30DE. The torque curve is not shifted by more than 50rpm strictly due to adding a 1/4" spacer. It wasn't on the VE30DE or VQ35DE.
The biggest gains are the decrease in temps and improving airflow by eliminating the stock gaskets and putting in a port matched spacer. So, these spacers should definitely show noticeable gains with the MEVI.
The biggest gains are the decrease in temps and improving airflow by eliminating the stock gaskets and putting in a port matched spacer. So, these spacers should definitely show noticeable gains with the MEVI.
Yes I do. The intake runners are only increased by a 1/4". That is the current plan for the VQ30DE. The torque curve is not shifted by more than 50rpm strictly due to adding a 1/4" spacer. It wasn't on the VE30DE or VQ35DE.
The biggest gains are the decrease in temps and improving airflow by eliminating the stock gaskets and putting in a port matched spacer. So, these spacers should definitely show noticeable gains with the MEVI.
The biggest gains are the decrease in temps and improving airflow by eliminating the stock gaskets and putting in a port matched spacer. So, these spacers should definitely show noticeable gains with the MEVI.
I would love to gain some low-mid range power and be able to keep the top end the same without having to change manifolds.