Ok, here goes... I have been wondering for a long time now about the supercharger $tealin makes. In my quest to save money I have come up with a few questions. Of the 5 thousand etc. members that we have on this board, I know there has to be some smart people. Now, with this combined knowledge surely we can come up with some way to fabricate the kit that is available and save everyone a big chunk of money. I know the rubber connectors are sold at various other suppliers. Can the piping be easily reproduced? What originally sparked my interest was reading awhile back on the forums about someone who new the supercharger itself was around a grand from wherever $tealin get's theirs. I dont have any feasible means of doing this myself, but perhaps this thread may spark someones interest and they can fulfill the deed. Let me know if this idea has any potential or if this is an outlandish dream. I know I'm really hangin out on a limb here, but think of the possibilities for 1/3 of the price and the group buys! Probably just wishfull thinking, but some wishes do come true!:

 

You're a one man research and development team over here.

 

I like where you are going with this... it would require a lot of work

 

i like your idea, unless we can get someone to donate their kit to us, we would have to pool money and buy one kit. with the kit in hand we could disect it completely and find the cost of each piece of the kit, IE: the charger the pullies the tubing. if the work was done this would be easy to do for less then 1500 and it could make whoever did this alot of money , 3600 bucks is a single investment but if you and your friends (or me) could make 200 to 300 bucks of a sale instead of thousands like stillen then everyone would win and in short the original investors money would be refunded. if anyone in the New England area is interested in doin this let me know. if anything this could mean a supercharger for each person for like 1500 bucks even if we didnt sell them as kits to others
lemme know what u think , and good idea dude
maxse98

 

I'm willing to do it.

 

This is a very good idea. There are members here who are willing and very capable of doing this. And if this gets done, it will be a BIG hit, and tons will be potential buyers (including me).

Dont give up on this idea, ive thought about it too, but never posted on it.

I like your way of thinking. Keep it up.

 

im willing to go all the way with this , if anyone has a big garage or alot of tools , their place would be the best place to work on this , we would need alot of people in order to make it fair to everyone. im only 19 and coming up with funds is tough , but like i said im willing to go all the way , i think i know enough about cars to be able to put a kit together with some research , and one of the people maybe whoever puts the most down could keep the stillen kit , we should do this the right way though ie: buying or making air fuel meters too or a gtech so that we can compare the cars that mods are done to. if all goes well we could feesibly make the kit better too. unfortunately though i lose motivation unless im around motivated people (some ADD crap) but if we got 10 people thats 400 bucks a person almost , not too shabby for one kit. if we were to spend 1000 per kit and sell them for say 1500 bucks and we sold 50 kits thats 25000. i think im missing something in the math here , but if anyone can help me that would be great. i worked all day and i have a nazty headache so thinking sucks
-maxse98

 

i'd be interested in helping out.

 

wheres everyone from ? how much would you be willing to put down and who has tools , soon im buying some air tools and a big ratchet set but thats all im gonna have for a while. i do have access to a nissan dealership ( i work at middletown nissan) so that might be of help. anyone have more ideas? ill be watching this thread for about an hour, idea seems to be somewhat popular... we gotta make sure the original thread post guy gets a piece of the action.
maxse98

 

Believe it or not Stillen does not mark this kit up a lot. I whould be suprised if Stillen made more then $300-400 a kit. The SC unit it's self may only be a grand but then add in the Vortech fuel pump, Custom piping, Custom SC to engine braket + a ton of other things that are custom, this type of stuff costs a LOT of money to produce! I know every single part off the top of my head and it whould be really hard to custom make them all and beat Stillens RESONABLE price.


It short your idea is never going to happen... Sorry

I say make a type II wing!

 

what are u a stillen rep or suttin, anything is possible , if parts are in hand manufacturing isnt tough. ive seen a turbo NX2000 motor thats got over 300 to the wheels , hand built by two guys one with the funds and the car the other with the tools and the knowhow, nothing is impossible trust me ive proven it tons of times. i may be cocky but i am poor so i need to use my brain to make up for a lack of funds. and alot off the time it works out for the best. IE: my own special intake and Exhaust. Ask anyone whos raced me in their max. And realize so far ive spent maybe 30 bucks on everything i needed , might not be as pretty as stillen but it works and my car is faster then stock , i drive them every day at the dealer trust me
-pete
maxse98

 

 

also , if you think that this isnt possible. if u help and in the end this works out, ill give u 500 bucks cash in hand , but u gotta help out. if someone with the kit already wants to help then that cuts expenses for everyone a whole lot. And this person who choses to help by supplying their car and kit for a few hours maybe once a week they could stand to make some serious dough. i may be delusional but i dont see why we need a vortech blower , other companys make blowers. a braket is easy to make if u have a welder , hell if people help me with the funds and the tools ill make the first kit myself. and help anyone who wants one make theirs , i like helping people but i can be a total D**K if people tell me i cant do something thanks for reading my schpiel my aol name is peej410 if u wanna help out IM me
maxse98

 

I like your idea too. It won't be easy to say the least, but if you're willing to all the way, that'll be some accomplishment. I never say nothing is impossible, so if you want to give it a shot, go ahead. It'll take a lot of work, time, money, and most importantly, patience. Good luck.

 

Surely you can make a ghetto SC kit or Turbo charger out of 1/2 *** used parts but arent we talking about recreating a Stillen SC kit? In short, I am simply saying if you wanted to make a Stillen SC kit with the same parts it whould not be worth the savings. Like I said before the SC kit is not marked up a lot and that I know for a fact.

BTW did you make your exaust and intake yourself for $30? To do that kind of stuff you have to have ascess{S?} to welding tools nad a crimper and probably other stuff.

 

I don't think you guys understand what goes into these kits. The blower is the easy part. Everything else has to be fabbed. The mounting bracket would be a ***** to make. From what I've seen, the Stillen plate is billet alumninum. The tolerances have to be VERY close. You will need:

SC ~$1200
FMU and wiring ~$500-600
custom cut billet mounting plate ~$100
mandrel piping ~$50
BOV ~$100
random hoses, wires, oil return line, random screwups ~$200
custom SC idler pulley $150
Belts $30

Right there you're looking at $2350-$2450 and this isn't assuming all the screwups you will encounter. I'd say for $2800 you could finally get it done right, but by then you'll wish you had spent $3600 from Stillen. As you can see, Stillen doesn't make much off these kits. Overall, they might make $300-400 when all is done. That ain't much. From what I remember, it cost them $8K in R&D for the setup (man hours, fab, and materials). Remember that when you try to attempt this.

Dave

 

E-mail me when your ready. I will help donate some funds.

tifosiv122@hotmail.com

I also have 2 mechanics that can spend some time helping out.

Erik

 

Thanks! Someone who agress with me.. BTW you forgot the Vortech Fuel pump and the oil feed line & T fitting.

 

well u guys can laugh it up but i found a same diameter MAF adapter with the holes in the wrong places so i drilled it and put it on, found a K&N and cleaned it up, bought a rubber adapter from the hardware store 3 bucks bought one of those ring clamp thingys with the screw for 2.25 maybe i dont remmeber. For exhaust i removed the muffler (not illegal in CT ive come to find out) and replaced it with the bracket and elbow from the stock pipe mated to a piece of tubing from pepboys pinched with a muffler clamp used muffler mount bracket drilled two holes in the stock heat shield to mount the bracket. its solid doesnt leak anywhere (no carbon deposits) and it sounds pretty damb good for what it is. soon to come is more exhaust work , unfortunately i cant make my own y pipe so ill buy one. as for the SC kit, we wouldnt buy the custom parts we would take the parts give them to a machinist and see how much it would cost to get the parts made in bulk. its not completely thought through and the numbers i gave are rough but its worth trying. another idea is Turbo. If people pooled money and assets and time and brain power and sweat. a turbo setup could be had by summer. the problem with that is exhaust manifolds and the fuel system.
anymore ideas???
maxse98

 

Just giving my $.02.

But out of curiosity, how did www.camryman.com manage to do a group deal on superchargers for Camry's, Solara's, and Sienna's (Toyota 3.0L V6) for only $2200 a piece? These are the TRD units are that CARB (smog) certified, bolt in, and don't even specifically void the factory Toyota warranty. Additionally, they have special features that dump SC boost during shift points (on autos) so that you don't stress the transmission as much.

-V

 

I think you guys are all nuts the stillen kit gives you brackets and all the hardware and hoses which you would have to have custom made. If you are thinking of this maybe you should try it on something a little easier. I installed a turbo on a 83 rabbit GTI which I had to custom fab. and it was a b*tch. I would never attempt this on a max.

 

you two obviously know more about this then i do but i learn quick. If both of you knocking this idea wanted to help then it would be alot easier , and by the way. when u buy one thing for 50 bucks its always gonna be 50 bucks but if u say i want 10 of these now , if everything works out i might want 50 more or 100 of these , price drops dramatically. if we were to use smaller companies to manufacture stuff and offer some sort of advertising reimbursement. maybe we could get people to help. just cause u guys have chargers and can afford them doesnt mean u have to knock someone trying to do stuff the cheap way. and i dont mean to be a D**K i hope u guys are just trying to save us the trouble instead of making sure u guys are the only ones with chargers u know??
pete

 

Im not trying to be a d**k but my friend owns a performance shop and he just got done doing a turbo on an altima and he said the best way to go is getting a kit design for the car rather then trying to make one yourself. He did a turbo on his VR6 GTI and it was a kit that included everything (320hp at the wheels without the nitrous) If you can get a kit and copy everything I guess It might work but youll probably end up spending just as much.

 

also a big advantage is support when big companys give the little guys support it makes them look sooo good. imagine a vortech sticker on every max that we make one of these for , thats maybe 5 -10 in short term but if they can really help 100s, imagine what happens when a mustang or camaro gets whooped by a maxima with a vortech sticker on it , if vortech doesnt wanna help. tons of companys make superchargers of comparable size and im sure they would jump at the chance to show up vortech. i need some support here guys , i know a few are interested. but we need numbers to make this work. plus once one or two are done , then we can make 3 - 4 and 5 - 50 much easier.
pete

 

Neither me or Dave have a SC, I had one for a few months and sold it. BTW I am in no way shape or form laughing at you in the slitest, infact I salute your ideas! The only custom parts that whould be difficult to make for the SC is the SC mounting braket and the piping, other then that it is just a bunch of parts you can buy with the exception of a couple of pullyes. Believe it or not but I thought about making my own SC kit a while back too and I thought it out and relized it was not worth it. I whould love for you to prove me wrong though{honestly}, good luck!

 

thank you for the encouragement, like i said the first one would be tough , and i dont want anyone to think that im gonna get everyone to pitch in to buy a kit and put it on my own car and take off. thats the least of my concerns , i think there is money to be saved and money to be made , plus i dont intend on going out and spending everyone elses money. everything would have to be listed itemized and evaluated before anything is bought. we need a list of what the SC kit includes a thorough one and then we can start investing money. if anyone can scan the directions or anything for the SC install that would be awesome. im gonna check out maximadriver.com right now to see what there is there
-pete

 

I just went way out of way for you and dug up a old email off of my old comuter from 6 months ago. This info was emailed to me by accident and is not supposed to be available to the public. In short you better thank me for this . This is really long and in depth so enjoy.

Bill of Materials
Packing Check-off Sheet
Stillen Super Charger 95-99 Nissan Maxima
P/N 407000

oAssembly person _________________________
oDate: _____/_____/_____
oSales Order # ____________________________
oSupercharger serial number:________________
o Instruction sheet with pictures and schematics
o STILLEN SUPERCHARGED Plaque 100505 Assembled
by__________________ Date ___________

Materials supplied:
(1) Air Filter Assembly Assembled
by__________________ Date ___________
(1) Silicone Hose, Blue - Æ3 ½” air filter to
supercharger 407000-11
(1) Steel Insert-air filter to supercharger 407000-02
(2) Hose clamp, #56 407000-14
(1) Blow-off hose nipple 407000-61
(1) Air filter with holes drilled 407000-10

(1)Vortech Supercharger assembly. Assembled
by__________________ Date ___________
(1) Supercharger 407000-01
(1) Supercharger adapter plate assembly 407000-07
(1) M12x50mm Flat head bolt 407000-74
(1) Idler pulley 407000-26 (2) M12x70mm Flat head
bolt 407000-36
(1) Supercharger drive belt 407000-29 (4) 3/8-16 x
4 ½ Flat head bolt 407000-37
(1) ½-20 x 1 ½ Hex head bolt 407000-72 (1) M12
Flat washer 407000-73
(1) Fitting, -4AN Male – 1/8NPT male 407000-56 (1)
3/8-24x1 Flat head bolt 407000-76

(1) Intake tube w/blow off mount, Æ2 ½” with STILLEN
decal 407000-03 Assembled by__________________ Date
___________

(1) Modified thermostat housing assembly. Assembled
by__________________ Date __________
(1) Modified thermostat housing 407000-05
(1) Thermostat housing gasket 407000-63
(1) Crankcase breather hose assembly Assembled
by__________________ Date ___________
(1) 36” Æ5/8” ID Crank case breather hose 407000-15
(1) 90° Æ5/8” OD Plastic vent line adapter 407000-66
(1) 45° Æ5/8” OD Plastic vent to air filter 407000-65
(1) 2” Æ5/8” ID Crankcase breather hose NEED P/N

(1)Oil feed line, -4 S.S braided line 407000-25
Assembled by__________________ Date ___________
(4) Adel clamps, Æ5/16”, w/Æ1/4” bolt hole 407000-51
(1) Oil Tee adapter assembly 407000-56,57,58
(2) M6x1.0x30MM HHCS 407000-46
(2) Aluminum spacers, ƽ” OD x Æ ¼” ID x ½” Long
407000-17

(1) Blow off hose to air filter Assembled
by__________________ Date ___________
(1) Æ1” ID x 20” Long 407000-62
(1) Fuel pump assembly Assembled
by__________________ Date ___________
(1) FMU (Fuel Management Unit) – Comes from Vortec
assembled
(1) Bracket, Auxiliary fuel pump 407000-09
(2) Rubber Insulators – Fuel pump bracket 407000-67
(2) Adel clamps fuel pump holder 407000-87
(2) ¼-20 Male stud/Female rubber isolator 407000-27
(2) ¼-20x1/2 Flathead cap screw 407000-85
(2) ¼ Flat washer 402991
(2) ¼-20 Nylon locking nut 407000-40
(8) Mini Hose clamps 407000-75
(4) 5/16” F/I fuel line 24” long each 407000-64
(2) Isolator to assembly bracket 407000-68
(1) FMU Bracket 407000-47
(1) –8 female AN to –4 Male AN, fitting 407000-59
(1) Electrical nuts to fuel pump (packaged from
Vortec)
(2) M6x1.0 HHCS w/washers


1) Auxiliary Fuel Pump electrical assembly
Assembled by__________________ Date ___________
(1) Fuel pump relay electrical assembly (Bosch relay
from Vortec, Stillen Assembly Dept. to wire)
(1) Fuel pump pressure switch 407000-49
(1) Blue 3M splice NEED P/N
(1) Hobb/boost switch bracket 407000-55

(2) 48” Blue silicone hose each 407000-16
Assembled by__________________ Date ___________
(1) Power Steering oil cooler-Stillen (1999 models)
See P/N 407100
(3) Adel clamps SG-6 (1999 models) Part of BOM of
P/N 407100
(3) M6 x 1.0 x 10mm Flange bolt (1999 models) Part of
BOM of P/N 407100
(1) M6x1.0 Nylon locking nut (1999 models) Part of
BOM of P/N 407100
(1) Back strap 18” long (1999 models) Part of BOM of
P/N 407100

(1) Coolant bottle relocation bracket 407000-50
Assembled by__________________ Date ___________
(1) 48” 5/16” hose, radiator overflow to coolant
bottle 405030-9
(2) Spring clamps, overflow radiator hose 407000-70

(1) Fuse box mounting brackets (teardrop) 407000-31
Assembled by__________________ Date ___________
(1) Fuse box relocation mounting bracket 407000-30
(2) Flat head 10-32 x 5/8 451070-4
(2) 10-32 Nyloc nuts 407000-42

(2) 90° 3” OD tube w/Air temp sensor hole & crankcase
vent Assembled by__________________ Date
___________
(push in type and bolt in type air sensor) w/nipple
(407000-20)
(1) Modified oil drain back plate 407000-06
Assembled by__________________ Date ___________
(1) Blower oil drain back hose-preformed 407000-32
(2) Hose clamps, # 10 407000-23

Hardware – Intake tubes Assembled
by__________________ Date ___________
(1) Silicone hose, Black - 90°, supercharger to cross
over tube 407000-13
(1) Silicone Hose, Blue - MAS to 90° Ø 3.00 tube
407000-12
(1) Silicone hose, Blue - 90°tube to Throttle body
407000-12
(4) Hose clamp #48 Hard pipe/Mas/Throttle body
407000-19
(1) Blow Off Valve Assembly with adapter 407000-24,
-08
(4) Cable Ties, 11” Black 405030-6
(2) Aluminum spacers – Stand off to valve cover
407000-17
(1) M8x1.25x40mm Flange Head CS 407000-69
(1) M8x1.25 Prevailing Lock Nut 407000-86
(8) M6x1.0x55mm Hex bolt 407000-45
(8) M6 lock washer 318109
(2) M10x1.5x60mm Hex bolt 407000-33
(2) M10 flat washer 407000-34
(6) M6x1.0 Nyloc nuts 402993
(12) M6 Flat washers 318110
(6) M6x1.0x25mm Hex bolt 402990
(2) M6x1.0x40mm Hex bolt
(2) Hose Clamp #40 – Supercharger to 90°hose
407000-18










Vacuum line assembly Assembled
by__________________ Date __________
(3) Vacuum Tees, 3/16” 407000-28
(5) Cable Ties, 6” black 505053
(5) Vacuum lines, 3/16” ID 503215-6
(1) Air-bypass adapter 407000-78

(1)Cam sensor retainer 407000-84 Assembled
by__________________ Date __________

(1) C.A.R.B. Decal EO#D436-6
(1) 92 Octane Label WARNING
(1) Stillen SuperCharged Decal STISUPER

 

Now you see just how compicated it really is!

 

thank you much ill be saving this and printing copies , but notice how many of these small parts are 30 cent - dollar items , i mean hose elbows and washers .. planning and patience is needed. thank u though dude its nice to know that people do like to help out there
-pete

 

damn ethan, you just posted delio's parts list.

minus the bolts, cept the nasty m6 x 55mm one..

 

I posted a tread on this a couple of days a go here it is: http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?threadid=55423, what I wanted to do is get a SC from a Junk Yard and install it on the max. Maybe that will be cheaper than buying a new Vortech SC?

I have a SC from a 90's T-bird, I just need some more info on how to hook the SC up to the car, on how it works.

Just one other thing, I spend allot of time in Mexico, and getting custom mounting brackets is cheap down here, so maybe we can get them fabricated here.

Good luck guys, and I think this is a great idea.

Thanks!

 

I believe the SC in a T-Bird SC was an Eaton and the one that's included with the Stillen kit was a Vortech. One's a roots type and the other, a centrifugal type, different methods of pressurizing the air. The Eaton SC are OEM in cars such as Ford Thunderbird SC, Mercedes Benz SLK and are used by aftermarket people such as Jackson Racing for the Miata and Hondas. From what I've read, the roots design has less spool up and lag, but less peak boost.

One thing with using the SC from a T-Bird is I don't know where you'd mount the thing because of the dimensions. You may need to fabricate some mounts for bearings and a rod similar to the way some SC were installed on some Taurus SHO models.

I think doing a search for Supercharged Taurus SHO on the web will help everyone see two different ways this was accomplished in that car (since the engine compartment configuration is somewhat similar to our cars.)

-V

 

hmmm i'd be down to help out... but it would extremely hard... well to make a custom one yourself wouldnt be absolutely out of it if you find someone to form everything for you but making them for other people... and alot of them... thats expensive... hopefully it works out and i'll save some big money! haha

 

finally some more support. i biggest challenge i see is the FMU like these guys suggested last night , the pulleys the bracket and the tubing . tubing isnt as hard as you might think , dynomax stuff isnt too expensive if anyone has a mig welder i can weld, that would work if not i might be able to score one in order to do welding. we could also pipe a CAI into the kit, more power hehehe. Does UDP make a pulley kit for guys with the supercharger? cause that would solve the pulley kit right there , i dont see how it would be so hard to find a pulley the right size or close to the right size. what was suggested about geting an SC from a junk yard. for my own purposes and in my own car id opt to save the dough if i could find a centrifugal blower, but if these kits are going in other peoples cars too id buy something new with warranty. another benefit of this system is, you have to be somewhat educated about what yer doing to get it in yer car , its not gonna be as installation friendly as stillen but it still wont be hard. meaning that if something does break you can order parts from us , we will have sourced them out and you could fix it yourself. plus everyone seems like a nice person that ive talked to i dont see me or anyone refusing to help someone with a problem we're all buddies right???. anyways i had more stuff to say but i gotta go to work , ill try and check on the thread later, everyone post ideas !!!!!!! and have a good day
-pete

 

I all for it. I do think that the very first one completed may be about the price of a Stillen kit,but I think it will become cheaper to make once all the ground work is laid. I'm down!!

 

I honestly don't think you would be able to fab a kit for cheaper than Stillen makes it. I would love to see someone come up and take a bite out of Stillens marketshare in terms of boost, but you have to remember as far as aftermarket tuning goes Stillen is one of the bigger names out there. And if they are paying one thousand dollars for a blower can you imagine what you would have to pay.

I am the owner of a V1 and just for giggles I called Vortech and inquired about their V2 trade in program. What Vortech does is takes 1 thousand dollars off the price of a new V2 if your V1 works. And that leaves you the end consumer saddled for about 800 bux. So as an everyday guy it actually costs about 1800 bux for a new blower alone. Now if you are a wholesaler you usually get 20% off the prices right? So that still leaves you paying 14xx for a blower alone. Right there you are at half the cost for a Stillen kit. The FMU is not cheap...even if you went with another Adjustable FPR you are still looking at at least a couple of hundred dollars. Factor in the mounting plate... which has to be PERFECT... there can be no flaws in this bad boy or belts won't line up etc...and figure in a method of Fuel Delivery, be it additional fuel pump or new in tank pump. You are already pushing 2k. And that is before you get into any of the miscellaneous stuff like relocation brakets, oil and fuel lines, power steering lines, pulleys, etc.

Stillen has as big a name as just about anyone out there... their buying power is unparalleled by a little consumer. If they only make 3-400 dollars per kit at an average price of 3500 bux I don't see the average guy pulling it off. Not that I wouldn't love it. But I don't see it happening.

If you guys want cheap boost, I would hang tight and wait to see what Brian Catts comes up with. It sounds extremely promising, and seems like it **may** be cheaper than the Stillen setup.

Later,
Del

 

Sorry, I haven't had a chance to post yet, but I've been real busy. First, thank you all for your comments. I really want to try and make this work some how. I do believe that this would be a very difficult project. Having the tools and the connections to get the parts made is the most important step next to the finances. I guess that I'm just tired of Stillen dominating the market for our cars, charging out the a$$ and treating everyone like crap. If we could come up with a way to complete this project, we could cut out that "middle man" all together. Then Stillen would have to do something drastic to sell their supercharges. Which would mean lowering their prices. Which they could do if they wanted, but why when you have a monopoly going! I know they make more off their kits that what people are saying. Hell, their kit was around $3,000 when it first came out. Now it's at $4,000. That's a grand right there. In short, I am willing to do what is necessary to make this happen. It would have to be a combined effort. Just keep those ideas coming! Someone's got the answers. Where you at (keeping fingers crossed)? Btw, I live in Kansas.

 

I still think you guys are biting off way more than you can chew.

IMO, we should be focusing on making the 5th gen variable intake runner work on the 4th gen. An honest 200-205fwhp 4th gen that weighs only 3000lbs will easily hang with or out accelerate the 260hp Maxima. The intake manifold will give atleast 15fwhp. I don't see why 13s wouldn't be attainable with this setup. With this setup, you would still have perfect driveability and no potential headaches like slipped belts, broken pulleys, or oil leaks.

As for the Roots blower on a 4th gen Maxima, it won't work. You would need to custom make a lower intake manifold plus there is nowhere for the SC drive belt to be run. The AC lines, timing chain cover, engine mount, power steering pump, and coolant hoses are all in the way. Another problem is that the engine sits very close the firewall and the Roots blower would most likely hit the firewall on engine movement.


Dave

 

The Stillen SC was about 4 grand when it was new{not 3K}, I bought my SC new from Stillen a few months ago for $3,300{not 4K}.


Dave B, I am extremly interested in the variable intake you just mentioned. I did a search on this subject and it seems a little complicated. If someone with more knowledge then me{like you probably} could actually do this and give instruction to less experienced folks that whould be great! Are you planning on doing this any time soon?

 

So, what can I do do to help? I know you live in Ks as well so, where do we start?