stanltod

iTrader: (2)

I have a '97 SE 5 spd manual with 161k miles. It has always driven great and I've had no tranny or enging problems. I recently replaced the axles and then a couple of months ago 5th gear started popping out of gear while driving, especially at speed on the highway and more specifically when accelerating. Then I noticed gear oil leaking under the car and topped it due to low fluid. I was thinking maybe the seal was damaged when we put in the new axles. Yesterday, disaster struck. It popped out of 5th and wouldn't go back in. I pulled off at a ramp and stopped to see if I could go thru the gears. I could so I got back on the highway. This time when I hit 5th gear it went into gear but there was no power, the engine just revved like it was out of gear in neutral. I limped home in 4th on non-highway route. Now, it will always go into 5th but just revs like in neutral and it will barely go into Reverse, I really have to force it. It seems like 5th gear was going, going, and is now gone?? I have seen people say that Reverse is same shaft as 5th so maybe it is going soon too? Any thoughts or advice? Is it synchronizers that went first and now took the gears with it? I haven't torn anything apart yet so I don't have pictures or an assessment. I haven't had a chance to check clutch master and slave cylinders or the clutch disc, pressure plate, and TO bearing.

I've had it since it was new and I have never done any clutch or tranny work on it.

Thanks in advance for any help or thoughts.

EDIT: 10/25 - edited title for others searching to reflect that broken shift fork was found to be the cause

njmaxseltd

iTrader: (19)

I guess your going to do some tranny work now.
Check the linkage, if that's ok, your looking at a tare down and rebuild.

Hewta

5th and reverse are both on your mainshaft IIRC. My guess is your 5th gear synchro is toast. When it just revs the synchro isnt engaging the gear and just the shaft is spinning and not 5th gear.

reverse has no synchro though, so its not going anytime soon unless u have catastrophic tranny failure. I would check your linkage first. No reason R should be so hard to engage. When my linkage bushing was shot 5th and R were hard to get into, and i had to double clutch most of the time to get into reverse.

is your linkage is fine then im sorry to say its time for a big juicy rebuild. Youll probabaly have to rebuild reguardless because of 5th gear.

Where is gear lube leaking from? if its not the striking rod seal where the linkage meets the tranny, then its either your diff seals or input shaft seal, which usually means theres a bad bearing causing the seal to leak.

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

the 5/r hub and sleeve are on the input shaft, not the main shaft. this behavior could be caused by a broken or extremely worn 5/R sleeve or shift fork, or the roll pin in the shift fork being broken and sliding on the rail. i think the sleeve being bad is unlikely, usually that happens to the lower gears, 2nd most common, then 3rd, then 4th - happens often from banging gears and not timing shifts correctly.

i'm leaning towards a problem with the fork (or linkage).

drain the fluid into a clean drain pan and if there is significant amount of shimmering metal flakes in it, the fork is probably worn to hell.

stanltod

iTrader: (2)

I guess I can only hope it's the fork and not something more significant. The part of this whole thing that worries me most is the fact that I can get it into 5th but it acts like it's in neutral. I guess that could be the fork not pushing the actual gear train into meshing even though the stick seems to be in 5th. The linkage could have been bent in the process somewhere so I will check that first but I think either way I am destined for a tranny pull. I just hope the collateral damage is minimal.

My next decision is to pull cross member or not. Lots of opinions both ways on that. Thank goodness for the how-to section.

I looked at the service manual and 5th and reverse actually share some important components. The most telling to me is that the 5th and Reverse bracket is on the opposite end of the 5th fork rod from the 5th shift fork. So...if the 5th shift fork is worn/broken it could be hanging up enough to keep reverse from properly engaging. Perhaps the shift linkage also got bent once the 5th gear fork went because maybe, just maybe, my daughter forced things too much before she told me she was having problems with the car. Pics and more info to come...

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

i forgot there is no roll pin on the 5/R fork, it uses c-clips. I guess it's possible a c clip could have come off, but pretty unlikely, i can't envision a scenario where that would occur. so it's not a broken roll pin as i suggested it might be earlier, because there isn't one there.

stanltod

iTrader: (2)

Here is the tranny diagram showing the potential area of damage. The synchronizers and actual gears are, of course, also suspect.

stanltod

iTrader: (2)

Got the tranny pulled last night and things don't look good. Two issues...
- I cannot get driver's side axle separated from trans with any amount of prying, yanking, tapping. The retainer ring just won't slip past the groove.
- more troubling is small parts of metal, probably gears, in the tyranny fluid. These are larger than just metal shavings. Ouch!

Any advice on the axle removal? Can I separate the housing without removing it? Looks like I am in for a significant rebuild job on the gears. I hate to think about parting out because my Max is in really excellent condition otherwise but I don't want to dump a bunch of money into it either.

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

were you able to get prybars on there with a lot of leverage, or were you limited in how much pressure you could apply?

post pics of the metal pieces if you can, i can likely identify them.

stanltod

iTrader: (2)

So, I just got the axle out of the tranny using a longer prybar. I opened the case and things are actually better than I expected. As suspected (good call!) by Nealoc187 the 5th gear fork is broken and it seems to be the source of most of the metal. No other significant damage. There are a few slight nicks on a couple of the gears where the broken pieces probably passed thru after breaking.

I am planning to only replace the fork plus axle seals, clutch disk, pressure plate, t.o. bearing and put it all back together.

What is the best procedure to clean the gears and case to remove any metal filings and old grease/lube that might be remaining? I'd prefer not to tear down any further.

Anyone know of good source for the fork (edit: dealer item 32819-6M000) and also the gear position sensor that broke when I removed it?

Thanks again for the responses so far.

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

if you don't want to tear it down any further you are pretty limited as to what you can do to clean it out.

is the fork shattered into a million pieces by being pulverized as it got run through the gears meshing or did it basically just crack and break into a couple main pieces?

stanltod

iTrader: (2)

Mostly intact, one side of the fork broke off into about 3 large distinct pieces, the magnet was pretty covered with oily metal fuzz but I can mostly piece the fork back together. I was thinking a good wash down of the gears with parts cleaner and thoroughly lube everything while it's opened up. I also plan to do a drain and fill after a day or so of driving after reassembly.

edit 10/24: changed out clutch disc, pp, t.o. bearing, picked up axle seals.

edit 10/25:
Got the shift fork (32 in picture, part number 32819-6M000, about $50 from dealer) that I had ordered and ran into a problem, couldn't get the 5th / reverse fork shaft (33) out because something was holding it in at the bottom which turned out to be the interlock (26 & 28). I had removed the reverse idler gear and shaft and removed the springs and ***** (4,5 34) and retainer roll pin (1) that holds the reverse bracket (37) to the shift fork shaft (33). Couldn't get 5th fork shaft to release. If the shaft won't freely lift out then you probably need to (as I did) slide the 4th gear fork downward and engage it in the lower synchronizer and gear which then releases the interlock ball (26 & 28) . Then the 5th fork shaft just easily pops out and will slide upward through the reverse bracket so you can install the new 5th shift fork and reassemble. When removing the reverse brackets make note of the spring positions and don't lose the little ball down between a couple of the brackets. Before you reassemble you need to remove the C clips (29) from the 5th fork shaft, the to assemble you slide the new fork (32) down to middle or lower part of the shaft, engage it in the 5th gear sleeve/gear then as you hold that fork in place you slide the shaft down thru the reverse bracket and into the recessed hole. Move 4th gear to lock the shaft back in place, put the retaining pin back thru the reverse bracket and thru the 5th fork shaft. Now you can reassemble all of the reverse bracket parts and you are done.

The how-to section tranny rebuild does a better job of describing all of this but I just wanted to explain the specifics of replacing just the 5th gear fork that seems more prone to breaking than the others.

stanltod

iTrader: (2)

I have a problem, need some help please. I put the transmission back together and now it won't shift. I am pretty sure I put it back together properly. The shifter is in neutral position but when I let the clutch out it is in some gear and the shift lever won't move in any direction

How can I get the transmission feed up and moving again?

Thanks.

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

remove the gear position sensor (reverse light sensor) and stick a screwdriver in there and pop whichever shift rail that is stuck in a gear back into the neutral position. happened to me once before too and has happened to others when installing a trans.

I made the pic below for someone who was stuck in 4th, not sure which gear your car is stuck in but the same principle applies.

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

can't quite tell which rail is displaced because of the angle of the pic, but i think it's the 3/4 rail stuck in 3rd.

stanltod

iTrader: (2)

I now have it moving thru all gears. I took the interlock ***** and springs out while I worked on getting the rails all back in their proper places. Now, on to filling with gear oil and going for a drive. Thanks for the help.