Well, I do know a few things about SC and turbo'd cars and 4 PSI on a stock engine with only fuel upgrades and minimal intake/exhaust work *SHOULD NOT* give an increase of 91 hp. That is just amazing that it does. They dyno proves this, but its still really high compaired to what 99% of cars gain with that PSI.

Kirk

 

So how do you explain it?Is it just a greatly designed turbo?

 

I cant explane it. The only thing that comes to mind is the fact that some engines take to being blown better than others. Take Mustangs for instance. The 4.6's LOVE boost and gain very well up to about 13-15 PSI. The 5.0's do ok early on but continue to gain well past 15 PSI. Different engines react differently. Im guessing that Nissan just did a great job building the engine and when you dont add the extra belt to turn the SC they dont lose much power compaired to PSI. Im interrested to see how the #'s drop off as the PSI increases. Hopefully they'll drop slowly.

Kirk

P.S. Im not flaming, I've ridden in Nigels car and I was amazed. Im just trying to answer questions.

 

can I be a member of the Elite Dual Exhaust Club? if so please give me my memeber number and you can mail me the certificate

 

You are member #3. Just add what I have to your sig and your member #. I dont have a certificate, but you have my congratulations on a dual setup

Kirk

 

Why thank youso is there only 3 so far with the dual setup? (sorry to change the subject of the thread , but only for a sec)
I actually have 2 mufflers though what about you? straight pipes or mufflers?

 

As Kirk said, it's highly irregular. 60hp is considered a spectacular gain when adding boost at low levels. 90hp is like spearing a rolling Cheerio from 500 yards away. Sure, under the right circumstances, it can happen, but it's very very rare. I've never seen or heard of such gains out of so little boost. Again, I'm not raising the BS flag, just sharing my experience.

My first thought is boost spike or creep. If the wastegate isn't up to the task of holding 4psi, it can actually start to open up further and increase the boost up to undesired levels. I have to assume there's a boost gauge in this beast, though, and that would have already been caught.

There are also always variables in terms of the dyno, or the correction factor, etc., etc. I don't know enough about the physical setup on that car nor was I there when it was dynoed either time. I'm guessing at this point. It's just that to me, when A + B equals G when it should just equal C, I start to wonder what the hell B ate for breakfast.

 

Yeah, we were truly amazed at the gains and can't explain it either! I do not have a boost gauge right now, but when we did the Dyno, we did it six times and with two different boost gauges because we didn't believe the results. You have a valid point about boost creep, the Tials don't have nearly the same problem as the Deltagates, thanks to Turbomax amongst others, they convinced me to get the Tial with very little creep. Everyone is suspicious, even I am, but I can't question the numbers, they are in black and white! While there is no boost gauge at this very moment, there will be one in soon ... it would be stupid to go for too long without one.

Nigel

 

Very very cool.

SuDZ

 

Great job Nigel!

Im glad everything worked out well for you.

BTW-Nice drop, what kinda springs?

 

There are more than 3 .org members with dual exhaust. I believe there are about 10-15. Only 3 in the club so far though....Im not really advertising it much. I did mine mostly for the sound and looks. It has a single muffler but an even flow out of the tips(this took some designing to ensure, but I live in Colorado and didnt want 80% out the stock pipe and 20% out the other side when its cold). I believe there is only 1 or 2 .org members with true, from the exhaust manifold back, duals. There are only 2 that I know of that have 1 muffler. There are about 4-6 with 2 mufflers(I think).

Kirk

Hey YDRSBTR - You GTP guys want to come to bandi when it opens? We were thinking of having our next CO meet there on that date.

 

Kirk why'd you let him in w/o consulting me first

GTR, It was actually 2 members, me and Kirk, because we have basically the same exhausts, with mine being modified to my personal tastes.

That's why it was elite, becuase our setup was unique to everyone else.

So if you have 2 mufflers it is more like a Bigsadler club...but what the hell your in bro.

But you gotta send me pics of your setup bro. Craigmack02@hotmail.com I am curious to what it looks like.

And if Yo_it's_ok starts attacking any of you it's becuase he thinks we or I am conceited about my/our duals.

 

I dont discriminate, I regulate

I think it should just be a club for the dual guys. There arent that many of us so we should band to gether to fight off the single guys.

Kirk

 

Synki; I think Nigel is riding on Intrax Springs if I remember correctly.
Ted

 

check my thread in the general forum and we can all discuss the dual theory

 

Well , if you think about it. If what Matthel said is true about the s/c running 6 (or 6.5 psi) and getting 260 HP on a 5 speed. I don't think it is unreasonable to get 267 HP at 4 psi on a turbo especially intercooled. Soooo....

About flaming GTPs, the thread never talked about GTPs to start with, this is all about the turbo and not GTP. I have respect for their torque and power! ... again this is about turbocharger.

If you don't believe the numbers, quite frankly, I don't care! I am tired of justifying the numbers. I will get a permanent gauge and verify it and prove it once again to myself.

Have a nice day!

Nigel

 

Nigel, the turbo is awesome, best of luck with all the tuning...

you should make us some more videos when everything is complete, like dyno runs, and some drive by's, so we could see more of the turbo in action

 

I am willing to get more video when the project is all good and done.
Nigel, you should email me when you are done with the exhaust and gauges and everything. We could go out and do some filming(your turbo against my lightly modded max). We could even put your max up against my friends modded A4 1.8T that spanked me, you should win though.
Ted

 

He put that much down. He did it at PFI in Fort collins. I have seen his car in person. It is legit. I know most of the guys that work there and they told me the same numbers, they have no reason to tell me different. So looks like i have some local competition. Wanna race my lumina? BTW Nigel, don't tempt fate... Keep it at 4psi!

RedZ

 

Shhh don't tell the hole world!! that takes out the fun!

RedZ

 

Just thought you might be interested in seeing one compared to a 10 psi S/C without variable intake ... you can see what the intake does!


For Torque:
The red line is mine with CAI and Y-pipe
Blue line is mine at 4 psi (now)
Black line is S/C at 10 psi with variable intake
Purple line is S/C at 10 psi without variable intake



For Horsepower
Again red line is mine before turbo
Blue line is at 4 psi (now)
Black line (S/C...)
Purple line is S/C at 10 psi without variable intake

 

Guys, a ****ing contest between GTPs ans Maxima's isn't what this thread is about. Congrats on the turbo. I'll be there (Bandi) on opening day racing my NA Maxima. It would be great to see some others show up as well. As far as times at the track go, I ran a 16.423 uncorrected at 5800 ft with only a muffler. Everything else was stock down to the paper filter. I also dyno'd at 166.3 FWHP and 189.6 FWTQ with the same setup. So with 100 more horse or so you ought to run around mid 14s or so. Maybe high 14s. But we're just ****ing into the wind by guessing all these numbers. Bottom line is that the car is running and it's a great project. I look forward to seeing you run at the track and would like to line up next to you once and see what I can do Congrats again and I'll see you at the track!

 

I would be very curious to see what your turbo could produce with the variable intake

 

I know... hehe

I sold him those In-Trax, im just checking to make sure everything is going well for him.

 

Please do not take this as a flame...

...but all it takes for a 5spd 4th gen is about 180fwhp to run low 14's. However, you will def need more power in an auto. A 5spd Max w/ 230-240hp is high 13's w/o effort (assuming he has y-pipe & catback).

I dynoed @ 215fwhp in my auto with CAI, VB, Y-pipe, Walbro FP, & Holwowed-out cat & i ran consistent 14.3's during fall & 14.4's in the summer. It does take an auto more power to hit 14's but 100 extra hp is not needed to run even high - mid 14's. When i upped to 100 shot, i was pumping down 240fwhp and that put me down on the border of 13's (14 flat).

 

We are in Colorado. No air. Max cant breath. Slow times result. I'd expect Nigel to hit somewhere in the 14's here at 5800 feet.

Kirk

 

I gotcha Kirk.

JDawg, i didnt know were talking about cars in CO. I just didnt want people to get too confused but you are right, higher elevation will def require more power to run faster time. I guess i should have mentioned i am use to running at sea level tracks in the NE.

 

Nigel, do you really belive the supercharger was at 10psi at 2500rpm??? Cmon man!

 

He was mearly trying to show which line was which. Not implying that at the point where the aarow is that the car had that much boost. Please dont read too much into the graphs. The aarows are only to distinguish one line from another.

Kirk

 

It's not a flame, it's just that you're forgetting one major component; we're at a mile high. So whatever a Max with XX mods would run at sea level, is going to be about a second slower at our altitude.

So think about it. If 240-260whp on a Max runs in the high 13s at sea level, then that same Max would be running high 14s up here. Since there's a turbocharger involved, you can be a little more conservative with the ET loss, and say .8 seconds slower, and you're in the mid to high 14 second range.

Again, no flames intended on my part; just sharing. This is still really really good news. Now you guys know what we're talking about when we say boost is where it's at.

 

He is telling the truth about being a second slower at 5800 ft, but as times get faster the difference goes down, here is the correction factor 0.9276 at 5800 feet so say he ran a 14.5 up here that is 13.45 up here but that is also for NA cars and not boosted ones, so the difference is a little smaller than .9276. So altitude does matter.
Ryan

 

Similar Horsepower at radically different Boost levels?!

Boost is a measurement of amount of air (in pounds per square inch-psi) that is going into the engine via the intake manifold.

Logically, a certain amount of extra air + fuel to compensate for it should give you the same exact engine output, regardless of the method used to push that extra air into the engine. The objective is same...pack more air & fuel into the engine, whether one makes use of a supercharger or a Turbo.

I am not second guessing you, Nigel, but please help me understand how does less volume of air produce more power!!!

 

Less congestion?

 

Remember he isn't using a extra pulley to turn a S/C so there are some gains there. Think of it as adding an underdrive pulley to a stock car, I don't know the difference it will make but it will make some difference.

 

Vid is down now, if you hadnt gotten it

 

Power is made not based on the boost pressure, but on the flow.

Let's compare two turbos. One is larger than the other. Let's say that at 4500 RPMs, set to 16psi, Turbo A flows 650cfm. At the same RPMs and the same boost level, Turbo B makes only 550cfm.

Obviously, the boost number is the same, but the flow is greater on Turbo A. The car with Turbo A will make more power (and subsequently be faster) than the car with Turbo B. Yes, we're ignoring any other variables in this case.

 

The method does matter. The SC is essentially a belt driven turbo. The belt that turns the SC robs the engine of power as it makes power. This means that you'll have to run more boost to have equal amounts of FWHP.(that is a pretty simplified explination and it varies on different types of SC's(roots vs. centrifugal) and also on the engine and how efficient it is with the belt on it....and much more)

YDRSBTR is right, it is all about flow. That is EXACTLY why Nigel's turbo is having problems after 5000 or 5500 rpms. There is too much exhaust trying to leave the turbo and the exhaust pipe isnt large enough to handle it so it is choking off his power. If the intake cant handle the amount of air the turbo/SC is pusing towards it then it will have less power than one that flows optimally at the same PSI.

I suggest you go to www.howthingswork.com and do a little It will help you understand much better

Kirk

 

Can someone repost the video... I would love to see it!

 

check your email...If anyone wants it, its only going through email for the time being. Reason for taking it down; Its my friends server you all may know him, and I dont feel like taking advantage of it and riding his bandwith sky high and making him pay for it in the end. Sooooo email only.

 

YO....its ok!