Oh, you mean like the HVAC controls in the Acura MDX

 

Typical American build quality is not as good as the typical Japanese build quality. One only has to review the consumer report reviews for a taste of how each make/model fairs. Have you ever seen as many SOLID BLACK DOTS as you see on the GM camaro/transams? Sheesh. Although USA makers really are making a better effort to build better cars right out of the box, they had the "let's fix the problem along the way" attitude for WAY too long. The Japanese take much more care in trying to build a trouble free car from the first model on. American car consistenly have much more recalls than Japanese cars further reinforcing the above quotation.

As far as ergonomics, American cars just got out of the dark ages in regards to decent interior design/style. I mean low long did they have that fake wood paneling in the dashes(and I don't mean those fake wood dash kits either ) Sit in ANY Honda and you immediately know they probably make the best seats in the business across the model line. That includes everything from their cheapest to most expensive Acura. The Europeans also pay much more attention to interior detail than the American car builders. But they are different than the Japanese. They seem to typically put controls in different spots than the Japanese. Different view I guess.

 

I just disagree with your general contention. NAVI systems have brought senseless complication to a lot of vehicles, primarily Japanese ones who think a bunch of functions should be integrated in.


Mercedes and Bimmers look like someone threw a bunch of buttons at a piece of plastic and whereever they fell is where they stayed.

 

I say stick to what you know or think you know you can whip up on. I hate to see the Maxi embarrased like that although it was just for fun, it migh tgive people the idea the Maxi is a dog.

 

Well said man. My dad has been in the Automotive biz for 30+ years and has always told me the same thing. The Japanese Automotive business is based entirely on the American system. Just look at your history books, who helped heavy manufacturing after WW2. All the Jap companies did was refine the manufacturing process for better quality. I do agree that American companies are coming a long way in quality and I would say from statistics I see now and then that GM, Ford, and Chrysler will be almost equal in quality to the Japs in less than 5 years from now.

 

THe mustang interior is horrible. Maybe not the new cobra never seen it, but all the other ones it is horrible. The gear shifter is way to close to the cd player/radio. The black bottons on ford radios wear off and turn white. Everyone ive been in rattles like crazy. The seats unless leather are very cheap lokoing and feeling. The dash board is made of hard plastic, along with all the other paneling. When you take off paneling in fords the panels dont line up very well afterwards. Poor quality control. The engines are flat out junk and the automatic trans are trash. My friend had a 98 GT and had to replace the engine in early 99. He even admits the car is a piece of crap and he doesnt even rag it. Foreign cars by far have the best interiors. The interior of my 87 Supra is far better than any american car and most new foreign cars. Just because its european doesnt make it a good car. Only really good european cars are the german cars. Peugoet, Renault, saab, volvo, fiat, and the many others are not all that reliable. KNOW YOUR FACTS! The finish on most european cars is quite nice. Japanese cars are probably the best cars you can buy for the price. Sure BMW and Merecedes are awesome but are the interiors much better than a Lexus? No not really.

 

Jeff, I expect a flame for this.

 

I don't disagree with anything that has been said so far, my complaint is that some believe the Japanese makes to be more ergonomic than others. Not just more so, but "leaving others in the darkages". Don't be blinded by the fact that you own a Japanese car ... like I have said ... I have owned cars from every major market and I agree with everything you have said with the exception of the ergonomics. My 99 Cougar fit me like a glove ... doubt I could find a more ergonomic car for me with the exception of the new 350Z, which looks somewhat similar (vents and other items).

As for build quality, perhaps you could explain to me why the brakes where warped on the 2K2 Maxima that I test drove with only 124 miles on the odometer? Not everyone is perfect and if they are, they are too expensive to own. I personally am looking forward to test driving the 350Z and the G35 Coupe & Sedan.

 

What? That well have been true right after the Hicks got done lobbing two nuclear warheads at Japan. But if the Japanese manufacturing system is soley Hick based, then why did the big 3 VISIT JAPAN IN THE LATE 80'S-EARLY90'S TO STUDY THE JAPANESE AUTO MANUFACTURING? Ie.. advanced automated manufacturing and their quality control???? Sorry if anything, the Hicks are using more of a JAPAN system than the other way around.

The Hicks have been trying to play catch up to the Japanese quality control/design ever since the mid 80's when the Japanese car sales started dominating the Hick car sales. The Hicks to well in truck sales but the Japanese are entering that market too. Toyota Tundra w/ a Lexus V8? Wow. Since 5 YEARS is only about ONE production cycle, I VERY much doubt the Hicks will have any chance at closing the gap in that short of time. Try maybe 10 years. You have to remember that the Japanese are still improving their quality. It's a moving target so to speak.

excuse the Hick remarks. i have to take issue with the insenstivity to how "jap" was used. you wouldn't want americans being labeled as rednecks or hicks right? Same for the word Jap

 

Not true. You call me a hick all the time.

 

Well I come from a family that bought Fords. I preferred Nissans when I grew up. I have driven/worked on both. I've done major engine work on all of my cars, Datsun 510, Merkur, Maxima, family's Fords etc. It's been my experience that the Japanse cars have had consistently better ergonomics than the American cars. Both in interior and logical placement of engine parts for service/replacement. You cannot just take ONE car and have that car represent the whole Japanese car maker industry. It's not logical nor does it make sense. You really want to compare Consumer Reports reliability charts for American vs Japanese???

In 1967, the Datsun 510 had better ergonomics than most \american cars in 1997. Big guages for rpm/tach, good steering feel, IRS, tension rod front suspension, Struts/shocks, OHC aluminum head 7,000 rpm engine etc...

 

If you re-read my post.....I said that the Japanese refined the American manufacturing system to improve quality. Yes the American did "steal" some of the quality methods from the Japs. Overall the Japanese companies ARE USING MOSTLY DOMESTIC MANUFACTURING TECHNOLOGY. You have your facts wrong. Maybe you should actually tour the manufacturing plants and compare them before you make incorrect statements.


I might have been a little optimistic on my American quality prediction, but you seem to forget that GM is pushing out a lot of redesigned models. In the next 5 years many new vehicles will be out now that Lutz is in charge.

 

I would have to say at least Nissan looked at Europe for their designs right after the war. After all Japan doesn't fair very well for what the Hicks were building at the time. Very big cars. The Hicks didnt' steal anything. The big 3 asked to go to Japan to see why they were getting their ***** kicked by their own game. Plus the Japanese were kicking the Hick's ***** despite the import tariffs imposed on all Japanese cars at the time and now(I think). So who do you think is using more of each other's technlogy? Japan using more Hick automation equipment or Hicks using more Japanse automation style equipment? And how exactly do you know that the Japanese are even using ANYTHING remotely resembling what the Hicks showed them over 50 YEARS AGO? It's like saying the Japanese use bascily the same computor chip manufacturing processes because the Hicks gave them that technology.

I'm not 100% sure but I believe Lutz(Mercedes??) said their aquisition of GM was one of the poorest business mistakes they made. They are getting killed by GM's inefficency. Just something I remember reading. If you can shed some light into this, that would be great.

 

Going from memory, I thought it was an American involved with the rebuild of Japan's industry that brought in the quality control ideas that have resulted in the tremendous reliability of the Japanese cars. IIRC, the name was Denning (but I'm not sure.)

If you look at the Consumer Reports reliability reports, it's my perception that the domestics are fairly close to the Japanese for the first couple of years, but don't hold up as long. I hope they do get to the same levels, as it will certainly be a lot cheaper for all of us, as well as giving us more choices for quality autos.

 

Damn he did it again!



FLAME ON JEFF!

 

[/]

If that was so, the Americans sure didn't practice what they preached. Up to the late 80's, the domestics only built their cars to last for length of time the typical consumer kept the car. Something like 7-8 years. To me that's a **** poor attitude toward the American consumer.

Quote:

[bIf you look at the Consumer Reports reliability reports, it's my perception that the domestics are fairly close to the Japanese for the first couple of years, but don't hold up as long. I hope they do get to the same levels, as it will certainly be a lot cheaper for all of us, as well as giving us more choices for quality autos.

I'll take a look again, but from what I have seen, the first years of any American car relability is BETTER but still poor as compared to the typical Japanese first few years of relability. Of course overall, the Japanse cars are consistantly better.

 

I am talking about Automotive Manufacturing, not design. Like I said the Japs came over here and studied our system of manufacturing. They still use it and over the years have implemented new technology to increase quality/efficiency. They are still using our technology whether you believe it or not. Many of the reasons that the Japs are more efficient IMO can be blamed on the UAW. Many of the advanced welding and robotic technologies that could be further implemented into American plants are held back because they take the place of humans, which the UAW doesnt like. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that all the Japenese/European plants opperating in the US arent union.

 

Hasn't all the Hick machines been replaced by now by advance automation equipment? So what part of the hick manufacturing process still exists in the Japanese plants? Yes you are correct, in the USA, Japanese auto plants have strongly resisted union representation(and for good reasons). Most of those reasons you have already stated. It would seem the only ones using Hick tech are the Hicks

 

Dear heavens.....

 

I know for a fact that the Japenese plants use our Hick machines. Go to the Nissan Smyrna plant where our beloved Maxima will be built very soon and look on one of their lines(dont remember which one). You will see a giant Danly stamping press that my dad sold them. Like I said before you are basing your statements on incorrect info. I get my information straight from visiting various plants and reading trade publications such as Automotive News. Now if you point out that the Japanese are more efficient and have better quality standards I will agree with you anytime. In the future this might not be the case, but we will have to see what the future holds.

 

Good info. I wonder how much equipment is Japanese/European/American?

 

I'm a hick.

BTW....Russ would NOT have lost to the 03 Cobra. He is a better driver, even in his automatic.....would never happen.

Russ = Andretti

 

My 2000 Maxima started rattling well before 20k miles.....not to mention the 2 check engine codes before 30k, the crappy paint, the horrible shaking from the rotors and the rattling from the engine when it is parked on a hill facing upwards and then started.

Oh yeah, then there is the fuel cut problem with the 5speed (and the sloppy shifter).....cruise control problems....where does it end????

--Ray

 

Exactly!! Furthermore, compare the 99 SC400 vs 02 CLK430. The CLK is about the best German car to date when it comes to ergonomics. However, it falls short when compared to the SC400. The SC feels as though Lexus built the car around your body on the assembly line. It's more like wearing a tailor-made Armani suit rather than driving a car.

 

personaly to me any import weither it be nissan, honda, etc... has a better overall build quality not necasarily performance. My last car was a 98ford contour(huge mistake) it had more probs than the law allowed.... problems include: 9 new water pumps, 3 radiators, replaced head gasket one time, finaly a complete new engine and tranny.... before that i owned a 97F150(very reliable)however after 65k miles the steering pump fell out in the middle of the interstate... after that the water pump went out and then the thermostat went out. Now i have never owned a chevy veh so i realy cant say any thing about then but i know others who have owned them... then they saw the light and bought a nissan... im not saying that nissans are better than ford, chevy etc... but i am saying that overall imports(japanise, german, england) have a better build quality than domestics IMHO... example aunt owns 88 BMW 200+K miles on it no problems at all, friend has a 93 nissan pu with over 300k on it still runs like it was brand new....

ok im off my soapbox now

 

I knew this would happen...

I know most of you hate American V8's just like I hate imports, except the Max. I can appreciate a car like the 350Z, or G35, or a Lexus 430. Why can't you appreciate what SVT, not just another Ford, .. has built. Is that too hard for you guys to do.

 

kloogy i forgot to mention the ONLY ford i like are the mustang V8's the V6's from what ive heard have alot of problems with them... but yes ford had done something amazing with the new cobra and also the lightning(gotta luv those trucks)

 

I agree with you. The Americans certainly didn't practice what was taught to the Japanese. American auto quality went down out with the trash, probably starting in the early 70s.

I don't feel like going to the other room for the Consumer Reports, but I think you'll find that several, maybe even many, domestic cars are near or at the level of Japanese cars (as far as problem incidence, which is what those reports are about) for the first couple of years.

 

Kloogy, please rename your thread to "debate on quality control: Japanese vs. American" and forget the race completely.

 

LOL

Now, back on topic:

With regards to extreme cases, the 98 Contour owner's example is a great example of a lemon. These things happen and can happen to any car that comes off any line, be it BMW, VW, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Ford or GM. On the other side of the coin we have the overachievers like "my mom's 84 Volvo ran flawlessly for 300K miles". Throw all these out, the lemons and the overachievers and we have the average car. If well maintained, and I mean miticulously maintained follow the manufacturers recomendations and almost every car out there SHOULD run for 100K+ miles. In the end, it comes down to how well it holds up over the that 100K+ miles. That in part can be attributed to two basic things ... materials and fitment.

This is where the UAW comes into play ... I would care to say that they are more to blame for fitment problems and quality controll issues than all other parts of the process combined, with the exception of design flaws, which happen. More robotics and less human error will lead to a more controlled production process that will turn out more cars per hour and any human counterpart. PERIOD! This is why Japanese cars will surpass the 100K+ mile mark in better shape than their American counterpart.

Merely summing things up for those that thought this was a thread about a 2003 Cobra beeting a 2K2 Maxima. Imagine that!

 

I would say a modded 2K3 cobra , with less than 3K invested in it, would own anyone on this board ...any gen .. PERIOD...

 

I dont know about that in a couple months when kev does his 5 speed conversion, turbo, etc., etc., etc......

He'll be running races w/ ferrari's then on the highway instead of porshes's

 

Agreed.

 

Can anyone on this board run a 12.0? I think it might have everyone with it stock. They dyno over 360 at the wheels, MM&FF dynoed it at 370 or so....

 

Well with RWD, IRS, ability to run 285mm or larger tires, A SUPERCHARGED 4.6 LITER DOHC V8, I hope to anything holy it BETTER run faster than most anyone here. x 100

 

 

I totally agree!!!

Despite how my posts sound, I'm really not an American V8 hater. My personal list of favorite cars includes some notable domestic V8s:

Lightning SVT/HD 150
Cobra R
Corvette ZR1
Corvette Z06
Impala SS
Mercury Marauder

However, these are cars that I'd get only as a third car/collector's item. (Though I'd consider using the Lightning/HD as a daily car.)

 

I am going to have to disagree about American cars having bad reliablility. At least Ford motor products. I have had this 2000 Explorer XLT 4.0 SOHC V-6 for 2 years now, it has 67K Miles on it but that thing takes a beating. I race my friend's Accord up and down the street an even around turns (Now that's a bunch of fun keeping that lug on its feet around turns), and screeching to a halt when we see a cop or coming up too fast on traffic, and I can say that absolutely NOTHING has broken, or even sounds like it is going to break on that vehicle. It is rock solid. Engine pulls hard to redline, brakes work good for the 5,000 lb. vehicle it is, and yes it rattles a little, but what do you expect from a truck? I also like the interior. I didn't get the leather and could kick myself for being too cheap to opt for it, but nothing has broken off, and the radio controls haven't broken or anything of that sort that I hear people commonly complain about. The door trim does kinda suck because of the plastic, but hey, imports use cheapo plastic trim too today. In fact, I almost like the Explorer better than my friend's Accord. The Accord feels solid, but it has 1/2 the miles I have on my vehicle! I'd just like for people to realize not all American cars are bad, although I will say GM vehicles have always, and will always suck. I HATE GM!

 

i never mentioned any thing about ford of gm trucks i luv their trucks and suv's its the cars i dislike especially the ford contour(rip)...lol sure it had 150k on it when i got rid of it but hell i had 30k on it and had to replace the tranny and the water pump and the radiator, thank god for warentees, hack at 100k exactly the engine locked up and left me in the middle of the friggen interstate... also i knew alot of other people with contours with the same probs... albeit mainly water pumps...but ford and gm trucks and suvs are build very well and solid especially the 80's model ford f150 my dad still has his 85 f150 with over 600k on it and its still running strong of course hes got a 2k2 f150 too

 

I finally tore up one of these beasts today for a run. I took 4 runs in my buddy's 2K3 Cobra with his SC on it. Here are my results on the G= Tech !

12.91
12.89
12.88
All on his 17X9 Radials....

Tell me this car is notr a beast. Give me 3K and I will be in low 11's !