Dave B

Yes, I'm saying he is wrong. Mercedes doesn't use turbo-chargers except for their turbo diesels overseas. Running twin-turbos is nothing special, but it's not a Mercedes thing. As for "dual" superchargers, that's probably the most rediculous thing I've heard a dealer say and only shows how ignorant this guy really is. Mercedes and AMG has been running superchargers for years now. However the supercharger they use is a "Roots" style blower. These units are relatively large and they take the place of much of the intake manifold. Where in the world would they be able to run a second blower? And why in the world WOULD they run a second blower? Why not just up the boost with a better blower, smaller pulley, etc? The amount of parasitic drag from the two Roots blowers would suck out ~20% of the power of the two blowers assuming you could figure out how install a setup like this.

The only way to run two blowers would be to run centrifugal blowers like what Vortech or ATI use. These blowers are much smaller and resemble turbos. HOWEVER, there's a reason no one is running centrifugal blowers for OEM.....they're very unreliable. The Roots blower is bulletproof, have very few parts, doesn't require a rebuild until 100-120K miles, and it builds instant boost. Running two Centrifugal blowers would make for laggy performance down low and then a huge boost after about 4000-5000rpms. This is not Mercedes' style nor is it a good performance setup for their 4000lb+ sleds. Mercedes likes useable torque and that's why they run Roots blower. They can keep thier engines small yet have the performance and gas mileage of a motor 30-40% larger.

I have never heard of a Pro-mod dragster running TWO Root-style blowers. If they want better performance, they upgrade to a bigger blower or smaller pulley. I highly doubt Mercedes is going to pioneer this dual SC setup.

Believe what you want, but some of us know better. I'm not calling you a liar, I'm calling the Benz dealer a liar.


Dave

MAX2000JP

Actually Dave, you are more wrong than the other guy that posted..

-Mercedes offers a Twin Turbo V12 in the S600 and CL600 along with the Maybach.
-Mercedes DOESNT use a roots type blower, rather a Lylholsen(sp?) type, which is more efficient than a roots.

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (1)

Dave -

I wish I could find the video of the stingray vette with TWO....yes TWO roots blowers strapped onto it's 600ci beast of an engine...something like 1200hp....and it was running in the video too.

Dave B

You're right. I had no idea the new 12-cylinder Benz motors are going to be sporting twin turbos. Is AMG going to be using these V12s in their cars or are they going to twin-turbo the V8s?

As for the Benz blowers, the "Lylholsen" blower is a Roots-style blower and yes, it is much more efficent than most true Roots blowers on the market. A Roots blower in corporates a set of twin gears that compress the intake charge. Many people refer to these blowers as "screw-type" blowers. Whipple also makes a modified version of the Roots-style blower.


BriGuyMax-

I've seen twin-Roots style blowers mounted on show cars too, but they're just for show. I've also seen twin-Centrifugal blowers strapped to 350s also. Wouldn't you agree these are really just for show purposes? The engineering to cram this setup under the hood and most importantly the engineering to make it perform reliably really is cost prohibitive. Wouldn't you agree? I wasn't saying it couldn't be done, it just doesn't make much sense.


Dave

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (1)

I agree completely that it's cost prohibitive. You just stated before that you'd never seen it done...and I know I had. I believe that the vette was going to be a "strip" car..they were going for 8s or 7s...don't remember. Anyway...that motor hadn't a chance in HELL of fitting under a hood

MAX2000JP

Actually a Roots blower and Lylholsen are two completely different blowers. Wait a couple of days and check out www.autoweek.com
They had a good writeup on the E55 Kompressor, which explained the differences.

Dave B

I guess I need to stop using "Roots" blower and just start saying twin-screw blower. I guess the reason I had Roots blower in my head is because the 2.3 Kompressor motor uses a Roots blower. The Lysholm-type SC is still of a twin-screw design, but you're right, it is far more complex than the simple Roots blower and the Lysholm can generate really big boost 14psi!?!?!?!?!? The Roots blower uses vacuum operation to disengage when not in use and the Lysholm uses an electro-magnetic system to disengage. The only real differences I visually see between the Roots and Lysholm is that the screws on Lysholm are very aggressive and the electro-magnetic disengagement pulley.

Here's a good article on the Lysholm. Take note of how much power it takes to run the blower at full steam (17% of the engine's power) :

http://www.autospeed.com/A_1102/P_2/article.html


Dave

Maximax2

I'm confused (never been to the track, so don't know what's normal). He ran a 13.8, and you were two car lengths behind and ran a 14.7? At that speed (~100), if you were almost a second behind, wouldn't you have been about 130 feet back (i.e. something like 13 lengths)? At 100 you should be traveling something like 146 feet per second, so...???

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (1)

That's assuming they had the exact same reaction time

Dave B

Reaction time is a biatch. I've had numerous people come up to me asking what's done to my Maxima because I've held off some LS1 F-Bodies at track Little do they know that "hole shot" I put on the LS1 F-Body was because I had a .5-.8 second quicker reaction time. It's not because my car is fast. The rate at which that LS1 is closing in on me in the final 1/8 is pretty funny too (ie really fast).


Dave

vito1281

Hey Dave,
so what's your technique for a quick launch/reaction? Any tips/hints?

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (1)

simple....hit the gas when you see the third yellow...

irvine78

iTrader: (2)

exactly~!

vito1281

I have never been to the track, but it' something I'm looking forward to doing, so if that seemed like a stupid question, that's the reason why.

If it's that simple though, why are some people not getting the best reaction times?

Maximax2

Is it? I'm not arguing, just don't understand. If his time was almost a second slower, then basically he had to come in around 125 feet back (at the 102 shown for the Merc). Even if his reaction time was slower or faster, at the end that would be the gap...? If he was closer, the time gap would have been smaller too.

Obviously I shouldn't ever go to the track

Linh

[quote]That's the NEW E55 being compared to the OLD M5. M5 is being redesigned, and they're putting a V10 in there. Once that's out (I believe in the next year), you can forget about the Benz. The M will have over 500 hp. AMG has nothing on the M division, from top to bottom. Get over it ![quote]

thats the CURRENT m5 you d!psh!t. the "new" one won't be out for at LEAST 2 years. You'll probably be seeing the "new" E55 out in the streets by February or March. Using your idiotic definition of "new," the "new" E55, the one which will out in 20 years from now, will be faster than the "new" M5. We are comparing model year to model year, not model year to car that doesn't exist yet.

quansung 2

ummm no

vito1281

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Linh
[quote]That's the NEW E55 being compared to the OLD M5. M5 is being redesigned, and they're putting a V10 in there. Once that's out (I believe in the next year), you can forget about the Benz. The M will have over 500 hp. AMG has nothing on the M division, from top to bottom. Get over it !

Quote:

thats the CURRENT m5 you d!psh!t. the "new" one won't be out for at LEAST 2 years. You'll probably be seeing the "new" E55 out in the streets by February or March. Using your idiotic definition of "new," the "new" E55, the one which will out in 20 years from now, will be faster than the "new" M5. We are comparing model year to model year, not model year to car that doesn't exist yet.

What's with the hostility? I just posted my opinion, and my definition of "new". All I'm saying is that the E55 coming out now is *probably* faster than the current M5 (I'm not even sure about that). The new M5 is not coming in 2 years, but sooner (where's your source for the release date?)--it'll probably be here in a year or so.

Anyhow, why don't you go relax, and don't sweat this so much--you don't have either car (and MOST LIKELY can't even afford the downpayment on it), so don't get so heated over it.

5.0THIS

I agree, 100%

Earlier, I was comparing the current M series cars to the current E55, not the new one... Indeed compare apples to apples, the new M5, if early predictions and tests are accurate, will wipe the floor with an E55 and make it it's *****. Besides, even if the Merc was a tenth or two faster i na straight line, just find some twisties, mercedes AMG cars have never been able to handle with M cars, and likely never will.

Oh and my bad, I thought what he raced was the SUV, not the coupe. Doh! AMGs need simpler names like the M cars

max'n out

The CLK 55 would kill a maxima, you woun't even see it anymore after 3 seconds...However a 430 you could stay behind a little bit. Be sure you talking bout the right car b4 you brag.

Dave B

I'll try and explain the best way I can. At the track there is a "tree" with a series of lights attached. You have your pre-stage and stage bulbs which tell you you're set and ready to race. Then there are three big amber bulbs followed by a big green bulbs. The ambers light off in .5 second increments and then the green bulb lights. Green indicates "go". During "Grudge" racing or "Test-n-Tune", the green indicates "go", but the timers don't start until the car moves. The time it takes for your car to break the timing beam after the green is your REACTION TIME. The trick is to have the car moving pretty much when the green lights up, BUT you can't start moving until .5 seconds after the green goes off or you'll get a redlight (redlights don't matter in Test-N-Tune). The goal is to get a .500 reaction time which is perfect. The trick to getting a good reaction time to hit the gas when you see the 3rd amber light up. By the time your foot hits the gas and the car starts moving, it will be green. The way you "stage" your car also affects your reaction time and ET/MPH. I won't explain this unless someone really wants to know.

So here's the race, a 2k2 6 speed Maxima (mid-14 second car) vs a LS1 auto F-Body (mid-13 second car). The Maxima gets an awesome reaction time of .500 and the LS1 driver is snoozing and gets a dismal 1.2 second reaction time. Right off the bat, the Maxima gets a .700 second lead. While .700 seconds seems like nothing, it's an eternity when racing. From the stands, it appears to everyone that the LS1 got beat badly from the start and it stays that way until nearly the end of the race. In the last 300' or so feet, the LS1 has closed in and barely passes the Maxima at the finish line. The Maxima finishes with a 14.55@96mph and the LS1 with a 13.6@102mph. That's how it works.

THIS IS ALSO WHY STREET IS CRAP when it comes to wins/losses. A .500 difference in reaction time is very hard to gauge with the eye and this is why slower cars can beat faster cars on the street. It's a not a controlled environment.


Dave

Finality

2003 SL55 amgs pull 12.5 in the 1/4 mile and have 493 bhp. So do 2003 S55/S600/Cl55/Cl600/E55.

The 2003 CLK55 runs about 360 bhp. Fair warning even the pre 2003 Mercedes models where no slouches. The CL600/S600 ran about 375 bhp. Mercedes just entered into a massive HP war and it just kicked everybody. All the new high end AMG models pull sub 4.7 0-60 times (conservatively).

They are all basically a TRUE daily driver super car. Refinement, luxury, class, power, control & reliability. Something no other car maker has done before. The 996TT comes close but it cannot match the performance of the cars. Imagine a 4 door supercar sleeper that can run very close to Vipers in a 1/4 mile and run on par from a rolling start.

Finality

Sorry to burst your bubble but the new M5 is AT LEAST 2 years away maybe even 3....

Also some more info about the S600 clicky me. You also need to check out the other models.
800NM (590 lb-ft) of torque at just 1800 rpm available in every gear except for first. Yes the turbos in the V12 bi-turbos are small hence the lack of turbo lag.

http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cf...903.002&Page=4

There are already kits out there that push both the V8 S/C 5.5L & V12 bi-turbo 6.0L engines to well past 600 bhp and even more torque. Simply put all these cars will snap your neck back if you mash the pedal.

2k1i30

kloogy, how bout a pulley upgrade and those 20inch lowenhart's on my sl

Linh

read several articles on the twin turbo v12, still can't believe they put turbos on that sucker.

you have no idea how much i make, but FYI it's 100K+ so yes i could afford the down payment on it, just sucks that I have 350K+ in student loans to pay off not to mention a home i just purchased last year.

95emeraldgxe

i dont know who wouldnt

MAX2000JP

You cannot afford the car then. Most can make the down payment on a s600 or even Ferrari, but cannot make the monthly payments. BTW, how the hell did you rack up 350K in student loans? Were you on th Tommy Boy plan or something?

Linh

8 years at NYU (~42K per year tuition) will do that to you. My loan payment each month, stretched out to 30 years, is ~$2200 . My salary should pick up considerably though, this is only my first year out of school.


No i can not afford the car, but i was simply addressing the fact that i COULD afford the down payment, and if i was living at home with mommy and daddy like some of you guys here then YES i could afford the car.

vito1281

Why do you sound frustrated all the time? It's like you're trying to prove something in every post. Nobody here made you go to school for 8 yrs @42K a year, so don't take out your frustration on this board.

Dave B

Good God, 42K a year? How could you justify that? I'll never understand people paying that much for an education. I could understand paying big bucks for a 1-2 year graduate degree, but never on an undergrad degree. IMO, too many of these high dollar schools convince people that going to their institutions will land you a better job, it's not true. I've been working for 5 years now and the people we hire (engineers for the most part) are because they've got good people skills and REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE. Having a fancy multiple degrees, class president, etc means little to us. Internships are where it's at for us. In most jobs, you use very little of your degree unless you're in the medical field or accounting field.

Making 100K in Houston isn't a ton of money, correct? Assuming you're only taking home 60% (typical) of what you make after taxes, 401K, and health insurance, you're bringing home about $5000 a month. Figure in your $2200 loan and you're at $2800 to live off of for the month. If you've got car payments and a house payment, you've barely got anything left over. Of course if your married and your wife makes good money then things might be okay otherwise.


Dave

vito1281

In his profile it says that he's a "DDS", which I believe is a dentist. In either case, I thought dental school was 4 years, not 8.

Linh, bottom line, respect other people's opinions and stop being a b!tch.

KLOOGY

iTrader: (12)

Now that's funny... I have a friend who worked at MB, and he says that 90 % of people buying S and SL's all pay cash ! Not many of them even finance. Thats when you deserve to roll in it. If you feel a need to calculate monthly payments, compared to your salary... Pass onit , and go buy a C Class....

MAX2000JP

I dont know of many people around here that pay cash for 80K+ cars. Thats a lot of money to fork out in one payment. A lot of people around here lease/finance their cars. My dad leases both our 330i and A8L thru his business for tax purposes. I would think that taking out a loan would help you out for tax purposes, but I am not a Tax Accountant. You have to be making lots and lots of cash to pay that much for a car.

Finality

At times lease/financing your car can work out better. That is of course if you can earn a decent intrest rate.....

Once you start buying 60K+ cars you really should be able to pay cash for them ie it shouldn't be a car where you need to sit and calculate if you can afford the monthly payments...