i•maxx

For All you engine builders and modders of the 5th gen VQ.
Technically how much HP is the VQ in the 5th gen capable of producing, if you modded with every add-on that's available.

I posed this question to a long time nissan service advisor an it baffled him. After a few moments he said "probibly around 400hp". What do you'all think? How much are you producing?

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

Boosted or not boosted?

The 350Z GT3 racecar has about 400+ hp NA @ 8000 RPM.

In the maxima 300 crank hp is probably about the max you'll see NA for a very long time and it hasn't been done yet.

With power adders 400hp would not be to difficult to do. Although it's only been done once and proven ina '98 Maxima (VQ30) Mardigrasmax

McDisneySoft

If you're talking about bolt-on's then from all of the info I've seen, I would estimate around 250 fwhp, if that. If you want serious power, you need to open up top end breathing, stab in some new cams (not available yet), get some longer tube headers (some very short tube headers will soon be available, but the length is only about as long as the stock manifold), also, a complete top end rebuild would help a lot so as to be able to rev higher. Then there's a bigger MAF sensor, bigger injectors, a new ECU and ignition... most if not all of this stuff is not available short of custom work. Then you’d have to deal with the tranny blowing.
If you want to get serious—with forced induction, then much of the same work must be done, but huge figures are possible. Unfortunately, I read that during testing of the motor for the (then) upcoming GT-R, Nissan found that only about 525 crank HP was possible before BLOWING THE BLOCK. The problem is that the block is open deck (I'm really not sure what that means, but the fact remains) I've heard from some other guys that the block can be upgraded to close block, but like I said, I don’t really know anything about that, technically speaking.

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

I have seen you write this before. But where did you read this information? No one else seems to know about that article.

McDisneySoft

If you know where my other post about this was, look in that thread, someone else said they saw it too, and I think they had more info on where... I'll check it out too because it keeps coming up. Soon I'll have the search function which should help a bit. I'll let you know.

[maxi-overdose]

iTrader: (3)

with SC, I am getting 273whp. so that's about 320 hp at the crank.

some boosted maximas are getting more than 500hp at flywheel. any boosted vq30 that has over 350whp with manual tranny are running >400hp at flywheel.

McDisneySoft

I've heard that the VQ30 heads fit on the VQ35, but compression is dropped, has anyone tried this with BOOST?

Also, I just read at Nissan Performance Mag that the 350Z uses hotter cams than the maxi, has anyone tried a swap? or priced it out?

Sam03

I thought we came to the consensus here that the VQ35DE's are identicle, (block and internals) with the exceptions in the different cars being the intake plenums, and exhausts,(headers/manifolds)?

If the Z has a more aggresive grind on the cams, why do the other VQ 3.5 equipped cars make/plot the same power on the rollers when the engines are allowed to simply breathe?

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

Any magazine that claims the 350Z has different cams is feeding bad information. DAVEB and I have mentioned on several occasions that the Maxima, Altima and 350Z all have the exact same part number on the cams.

Sam03

This is a closed block- the block of the engine being a solid rectangular chunk of iron. Now, bore six cylinders in that chunk of iron that the pistons ride in and you have a closed deck.

Now, for an open deck, envision a rectangular 'outline' of iron with cylinder sleeves that the pistions ride in and are attached to the 'outline' of iron rather than bored into it.

A closed deck is much more solid and obviously, offers more tuning capabilities without upgrading the deck or adding to it. Does anyone have any interal VQDE pictures so we can see if it is open or closed?

Sam03

Thats what I thought from the last post of ya'lls about this

McDisneySoft

To tell the truth, I'm not sure what "on the rollers" means

I can only say I just read that, but I have have also heard that he ECU program is different, which stands to rason with a different intake manifold and exhaust... I really don't know, that was a question more then enythinig else. Who plotted those #s on the "rollers?"
I would love to upgrade using as many Nissan parts as possible, seeing as they've already done all of the R&D.

Is the VQ for the 2k4 maxi the same as the g35 sedan?

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

Someone has a VQ35DE sitting in his garage with the heads removed. I am already bugging him for the pictures.

And if ayone wants to know, Dodge uses the same setup in their Nascar engines. They call it 'wet deck'. I have seen one in magazines and with my own eyes. That design allows for a smoother engine and is usually more than strong enough for any NA setup. It only becomes a problem on the power adder applications.

Sam03

Thats another name for a Dyno
Search around here in the dyno section and you should be able to find members here that are making similar if not identicle plots as as Z, HP/TQ wise, (as long as they have the supporting mods). I could see the ECU being a different, but I am not to sure about that either-all of our cars act the same at WOT, and they all run out of breath to early
There are lots of other vendors to use for engine up-grades besides the sometimes very overpriced Nissan brand.
S'posed to be, looks essentially the same, with a better mid-pipe extension to the TB. I *think* thats where they got the minimal HP bump.

Sam03

That would be great to see
The WRX uses an open deck on that boxer engine, (between that and the fragile tranny)well they are reaching the limits on that thing because of it.

Y2K2Driver

iTrader: (1)

That must be the reason that the 2.5 in the WRX STi uses a semi-closed deck engine, whatever that means.

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (1)

I dynoed my bone stock 350Z last week and got 243hp and 245tq on the "rollers", show me ANY maxima making that much power N/A.

Need I even mention that in addition, RWD cars have MORE drivetrain loss than FWD?

here's a link to my dyno plot:
http://www.my350z.com/forum/showthre...threadid=21758

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

Good run. Do you happen to have the dynojet file so Steve and I can pick it apart?

You're right that no Maxima has done 243hp NA, but it won't be long.

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (1)

I need to take a floppy to the dyno facility to get it....soon...

Sam03

Stock-you do realize that the intent of this post was describing the similarities of the insides of the engine, ie they are the same?

Note how I used as a comparative, if a similarly, (for arguments sake) modded VQ in the sedan(s) is used as a benchmark in relation to a Z, it will make similar numbers. Now, had you of noticed that I predicated my thought with that, you should see that if you looked into the VQ's that have better breathers, (I/DP/E) that then it becomes a fair comparison.

On to the discussion of your pulls on the rollers. What were the condition of the pulls? How many pulls did you get? Did you get a cool down? What was the temperature? Humidity? Sea level? Did you get a fan? What type of dyno did you use? What that SAE corrected?

A dyno is a nice tool to use for a rough comparison, but they are not the Gods spoken word in relation to benchmark performance. The best representation can be made when multiple cars, of like mods, and geography can give a representation of what the engine is capable of.

For example, I could guarantee you that if a person who lived in Colorado made a pull, even without correction on a Mustang dyno; would still make less power in the same exact car that for instance is in oh I dunno, Gainesville, FL on a Dynojet dyno.
Conditions simply cannot be replicated across the country. If that were true we would all run relatively the same times when we went to the 1320, (dependent on driver skill).

Your dyno pull is but one vivisection of a mass of a similarly produced engine. I can mod my VQ similarly to yours, and cheat on the pull, I can run race gas, I can adjust the timing, I can set bags of ice on the plenum. I can bump my AF around. All these techniques I described netted me over 25WHP more than any other car that was similarly equipped, (my other car). So, I could liken that to me using you as an example-and me saying that "my X car makes 200WHP bone stock" while another guy with the same car can only make 160WHP in an identical car. Its hard to say that, and you certainly can't assuage me to thinking something different as I have been involved in building engines for to long

There are simply too many ways for the normal enthusiast to cheat numbers. But, I digress, the intent was not for a singular 350Z owner to use his car as a benchmark for all Z's performance. If that held true, it wouldn't explain how I can see, repeatedly I might add, and at different tracks here, 6MT Z's run high 14's low 15's here in Florida.
Thats not necessarily true either. Granted there can be more drivetrain loss due to the driveshaft run from the 'block' to the diff, but dependent on the construction and the materials for the driveshaft, you can actually negate the loss that more primitive RWD's use, so your example doesn't hold true. And, if I remember correctly, the Z is using something rather exotic in its driveshaft construction, right? And to counter, there are some rather inefficient, (read length, composition, connections) short axles used on FWD to this very day.

max...to the ma

based on ur logic (ive been asking this a lot) of how the engines are similar and with Stillen creating a supercharger for the Z how long till a 2K2 can get one?

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (1)

I never said anything about the internals of the engine not being the same.

The BEST I see N/A Modded Maximas pulling on dynos is high 220s. The WORST I see Zs pulling on dynos is high 220s and most of the 220whp Z guys are either not broken in, dynoed in the wrong gear or both. The Z also has a much better upper intake manifold, and I doubt we'll be seeing any aftermarket intake manifolds pop up for the Maxima. Thus, I don't think that to this point saying that simply letting a maxima's VQ breath through it's intake and exhaust better will make it put up similar numbers to a 350Z.

2 pulls (after a 30 minute drive to the shop so my car was completely heat soaked), 45 second "cooldown" between runs, temp was around 45-50 degrees outside and probably 70-80 inside where the dyno was, humidity was around 30% and this dyno was at about 700ft MSL. Yes there was a small fan positioned in front of the radiator. It was a dynojet and is WAS SAE corrected which pretty much negates the effects of temperature, humidity, and altitude.

A dyno a MUCH better comparison than just about anything else out there. Track times vary due to conditions and driver skill. Dynos really do not suffer this. If a person in Colorado dynoed their car and DIDN'T correct is then obvisouly they wouldn't dyno less than someone at sea level. All dyno's done at high altitude will correct to much higher numbers even in cool and dry conditions. That's a very lame argument. And again the dyno is NOTHING like the drag strip. Driver skill plays a HUGE factor at the drag strip, as does conditions and weight in vehicle.



Mod your VQ similarily to mine?!?!?!?! MY VQ IS BONE STOCK
You can't advance the timing on a stock Z, you can't screw with AF ratios, and if you run race fuel you probably won't make numbers any better than without since the ECU is TUNED for 91-93 octane. As for your 160-200whp in the same car comparison, I never seen any stock cars vary anywhere NEAR 40hp on a dyno, Zs that I've seen dyno around an AVERAGE of 238-239rwhp and that's still higher than any maxima's VQ. So you've built engines for a long time....seems to me you have something against dynos. Did the engines you built not preform the way you expected them to on a DYNO??? You can't CHEAT numbers in a BONE stock car on an SAE corrected dyno. And the drag strip has absoultely nothing to do with dyno tests that are being discussed here so I don't know why you keep bringing up 1/4 mile times.

Your opinion on drivetrain loss is just that....YOUR opinion. But no matter how advanced the construction and materials of a RWD set-up are, you are still turning MORE mass than a FWD car. End of story.

You made a assumption that a modded VQ max will put out similar numbers to a VQ 350Z. As of date this has NOT happened. All the "mods" in the world right now for the VQ in the max will not match the hp ONE AVERAGE of a 350Z.

Got anything else for me?

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

At least a few Maximas and a few Altimas have eclipsed the 230hp mark with bolt ons.


The should be no reason why you can't take your Z to the dealer and get the timing bumped 2º (actually 3º over the retarded 14º they give) like the rest of us. You probably have the same type of programmable ECU but with a different program. Has any Z owner actually made this attempt ?

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (1)

I also just though of this. By what you are saying the Z supposedly has "optimized" intake and exhaust breathing. And to "mod" a maxima to "optimize" the breathing you are claiming they will make similar numbers. I don't agree, but I'll take a bite at this anyway. A few Zs have modded THEIR intake and exhaust paths. And they are STILL gaining hp over stock Zs with their mods. Prototype headers made 15rwhp over the stock units. One owner who dynoe'd with intake and resonator removel made 12whp over his stock dyno.

So by this, once a Z gets intake and exhaust mods, no amount of intake and exhaust mods on a maxima's VQ will put it anywhere NEAR a Z in hp. That is my point.

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (1)

Yes, and a few Z's have dyno'd high 240s stock.

I read about the timing thing a while back and from what I get out of it, the "timing advance" that the dealer can do does not change the hard program WOT maps in the ECU. So to answer your question, no I don't know of anyone whom has attempted to advance their timing at the dealer.

Do you have an before and after dyno proof that this "timing advance" actually gains any hp??

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

What maps are you speaking of? Certainly the fuel map isn't affected but adjusting the base timing results in an increase across the entire band. I personally do not have physical proof of hp gains. Some people here claim they do and claim the butt dyno agrees. It would be very easy to prove if someone go make a trip to the dyno with a consult tool and make the adjustments between runs. And even from the meager 3º there is a very high probability of visial gains. More so on the torque side of the band than the higher hp side.

McDisneySoft

I think Brians point here is that he did not adjust his timing or anything else, his car was in bone stock configuration, and the number was corrected. So his dyno number was an accurate representation of actual whp. The highest maxi number I've seen even on the dyno thread was 229hp- a good run, but still not on par with the Z. I wish it was, but it's not.

So now, knowing that, someone has to figure out how to get those Z parts that make that extra power into the max. As it stands now, they don’t fit, right Bri? Let's try to change that... we're innovative guys... I've got money that says we can make it fit (the intake manifold)

So, any ideas as to what exotically about that manifold doesn't fit? Let'sd start there.

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

We're aware that he has no timing advance. Im trying to suggest to him that he get it advanced because it's a very simple, cheap an potentially productive mod. The concept of reproducing the 350Z engine performance in the Maxima is pretty simple. But trying to use the 350Z intake is not practical. A custom intake needs to be made. I started on that project early last year but never went anywhere with it.

Sam03

No, you did not, but you are prefacing a thought with your bone stock VQ in a Z to that of a far inferior, (in relation to intake and exhaust path Maxima). Heretofore your basis is that of an engine that is in effect at its optimum output, given the sheer lack of bolt-on aps that can increase it. Whereas the comparison that is given is that of a raw, un-altered VQ-with a highly restrictive intake path, and exhaust route are you trying to tell me that a Z has a similar plenum, and exhaust route to that of a Maxima now? If so, please cite where I drew the comparison at any juncture in this dialouge where I stated the engines in all form and fashion are the same.
Please reference that as more than just speculation as I distinctly remember seeing numbers in excess of 230WHP on a Max. I am curious as you laud numbers what your basis is, thanks.
We knew that, to wit, my stipulation that the plenum of the Z is far superior to that of the Maxima, please re-read my initial statement so you can satiate yourself, as I have already mentioned it.

Now, by what definable source do you cite that a Maxima will never have an upper plenum that will "rival" that of a Z? I will provide this for you, and you can draw your own conclusions as to availability. I also have a 6G72 3.0 block punched to 3.5 with a bore and a build on it. This engine of mine in my "fun" car runs a high CP, with a custom manifold and is putting down around 342WHP SAE corrected. Now, since you referenced what can and can't be done in regards to this VQ, please tell me how on a 6G72 I somehow managed to procure not only a full build, but a plenum that by most standards defined by you, (as segment) is not available to have a "tuner" make a manifold for? I am lost, apparently your knowledge in the VQ far exceeds mine, and I beg your umbrage for clarification.
Please tell me then, as you are obviously a bastion of knowledge in regards to not only the aftermarket, but the workings of the VQ, could you please tell me how by simply "letting" the VQ breathe better in the Sedans how it could not rival that of the Z, whose main attributes in relation to an engine, involve, (as I have now mentioned, ad nauseum) a better intake and exhaust path than that of the sedans? Please tell me that an engine, (that has been shown to have internally the same part numbers) is defunct of attaining the same performance levels of the Z, simply by letting it breathe better, I would really like some clarification as I already littered my initial dialouge with references to said stipulations.
Ah, thank you for the clarity. Please cite gear, barometer and size of the fan, these are all things, that can play a definitive answer to the complete conditions.
Really, how so, does a dyno just base its performance off of numbers, right--A general consensus of what a car can do in a controlled environment, at a certain time, on a certain day. I could replicate, and tune a car better with a datalogger in real time driving than I could with a dyno. Simple as that. Real race cars do not live on a dyno, those cars are tuned/calibrated in their own "real world" terrain. A dyno is a gratuitous fix for power people, but doesn't impress a person who is interested in the dynamics of the vehicle on the whole, unless you are talking about a static pull of every gear in varying conditions, with different loads? If so, I am sorry, if not, the dyno is not the sole answer for power.
Really, and thats a lame argument how? Could you please cite to me the three major brands of Dynomometer's in use, and how each has wildly different interpretations of power, even after the standardized correction? I am curious about that, because on my cars, I can easily generate drastic differences, dependent on which dynomometer, even with a correction factored in.
Please show me where I equated a Dyno to a dragstrip? I distinctly remember equating what you as a singular owner of a vehicle as not being the benchmark, or the standard for Nissan Motor Corporation, on a dragstrip. If you think I compared them, I would love for you to reference that. I am basing said statement on the fact that if dyno's were the end all of standards of power, that a vehicle, (such as yours with such awesome power) could, and does manage to pull slower times than one of my lowly cars? Granted we all accept that driver skill, track conditions etc., have a huge factor in performance, but I don't think I ever mentioned that in my initial declarative statement. I thought I was simply using a singular owner of a vehicle that makes "X" power on a dyno in a certain condition, does not lend credence to the brand as a whole.
Yes, you can roll your eyes at me, as you apparently missed the breadth of my initial thought, oh well. Now, since you say I can't get a manifold for my VQ, and theres no way I can replicate your Z's performance by simple bolt-on's, (wait a second, lets go bak to that other car that I own that makes almost a hundred more wheel horse power than you, that supposedly has no aftermarket?) Well, under that preface of my having access to facilities that can make a plenum or other freeing modifications in relations to bolt-ons, that my underachieving VQ, can't match the power of your VQ which is superior now, (as referenced by a Nissan employee that internally is exactly the same) in regards to its intake and exhaust path? You are losing me, you tell me I can't get parts for this engine, and that I then can't make power equivalent to the Z? Umm, ok?
Ah, so you are telling me what the VQ can and can't do now? Ok, fine. Now as for your reference in a hypothetical that I provided for you, well its funny that you as a person who told me what I can and can't get done to an engine, is now telling me that I can't replicate higher numbers in a similarly modified vehicle, sure man, whatever you think. I guess we will omit me seeing Maxima plots that counter the diometric opposite of what you said. Yup, you are right, I know nothing, and can't delineate the difference in simple ingestion/expulsion in a block.
I already answered this previous, if you difference please cite how a dyno rating is superior to what I provided as an explanation.
Mustang, Dynojet, (and the other manufacturer I will let you fill in) so three major recognized manufacturers with different baseline variances, that can not be equaled even with a correction, sure man, think what you like.
I s'pose you missed the context, or rather my rationale' for the 1320 references. Well, no matter, thats gone beyond you so I will adhere to the side of simplicity from now on.

Sam03

You are right, you know all. You obviously have built purpose specific cars and know that nothing can be improved on, regardless of the limitations of platform and/or driveline. Sure man, ok. Whatever you say. I conceed that you and your Z are the acme of the automotive world.
Ahh, funny you are one to claim assumption. Well good fellow, I guess you can take comfort in being obtuse, as somehow I can, and have the ability to meet/exceed and belittle anything assumption you throw my way. Sure man, I have no way to match the power of less than 300WHP like that of the mighty WHP of a Z Especially with relatively simple power adders.
Sure, here's some specs for ya of mine off of one of my hobby cars--864WHP 773WTQ using a 351 with a Vortech R1 blower. Figure that one out 350Z man, and you can bet I have a lot of something else for you. Oh well, I will leave this now as you will pepper me with inane assumptions about what a VQ can do, thanks for the time Mr. 350Z

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

:attention:


OK.. you guys stop before you get .

Sam03

I am an Attorney, with a penchant for cars; this is fun

MAX2000JP

You talk the talk, now prove yourself.....Where are your pictures

McDisneySoft

If you'll excuse me...
E'hem. Where and at what cost do you think I could get a custom intake plenum fabed? If the where part can;t be answered in less than one line, please just tell me the estimated cost.

McDisneySoft

Sam, also, what do you know about:
ignition upgrades for the max?
bigger injectors
better cams

I'm sure I'll be asking more soon, sorry to pester, but you've proven yourself to be the guy to talk to, so spill it. What can we do to build up our Maxi's, and at what cost (we're not all lawyers, so I think cost is an issue for most of us)

Thanks for the help

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (1)

Ah....so you learned all those big words in law school, and now you use them to impress people on the internet. That's cute.

You assume just as many things as I do. You back up your arguments by mentioning cars and motors that have absolutely NOTHING to do with the cars and MOTOR originally being discussed. Am I supposed to be impressed by your supposed "hobby cars"?

You just lost all my respect and probably the respect of a lot of people on this board by bragging about your wonderful "hobby car" with 864hp....wow.

I'm done sitting here and wasting time trying to explain a point over the internet to someone who (for a lawyer), seems to have a lot more free time than I do.

BTW - I also want to commend you on your stellar 2.3 60ft time in your maxima. Not being able to launch a 255hp car must make launching an 864rwhp car a breeze.

Sam03

Ah, so you think these are big words, that's cute Gee, if you talk a certain way everyday, and its a part of your normal surroundings, why would it give a person the impression that I am trying to impress anyone, especially on the internet? Nice assumption there.
No, I assume nothing. I know that a person came into this thread ane mentioned this.Gee, that sure seems likes somone came in here with a chip on their proverbial shoulder, and tried to throw his internet weight around.

As for my reasoning to cite examples as to what I have, or have done to other cars, that was in line to a direct statement that you provided Since you tell me that something for this engine can't be done, I gave you a comparitive, but, just like everything else, you missed the point. Well, this is coming from a person who assumes I am using big words too. lol.
Nope, not at all. I am supposed to be impressed by your 350Z? You seemed to want me to be.Since you made your letters large, well using your standards in this thread, "pot meet kettle".
Really? For someone who just labeled me as one who is trying to impress people-via the use of my vocabulary? It certainly seems as if the only one here concerned about their internet ego is you, oh well, you can continue to look hypocritical I s'pose.
I doubt your done. You can't sit there, you have that internet ego of yours to coddle. You will reply. Its in your nature. You 'walked' into this thread referening you never seeing any Maxima make the same numbers as a Z. Did you not? As for free time, well observant one. If I decide to post here like this, do you think it takes me a lot of time? Ok?

Oh, and since I have been registered here, I officially average one post a day, (why don't you go check that) yeah, thats a lot of my time spent posting here. Go back and re-think your statements before you open your 'virtual mouth'.
Thanks. Ya know, as me and two of my friends were driving down to Orlando, (in my month old car) for a long weekend, I pulled off the interstate on a glorious day, and with a trunk full of luggage, and my psi at 36 all the way around, I made those two passes. When I got done, I collected my two buddies that were in the stands and went on down to Orlando. So, why don't you continue to assume I was actually trying when I, by happenstance, passed a track on the way to another city for a vacation, and got a couple of runs in.

As for the other car, a stutter box, a tubbed rear end, and some big sticky's make things effortless actually. But, I will let you continue assuming things about launching. Now, I am sure you will reply to me, again, even though you said you wouldn't.

Sam03

Will do soon, let me say this

Well, first thing is, you have to know of a person who knows about engines. Around here, (in the South) we have quite a few folks interested in Motorsports, ie Nascar. Those people are the ones who can get you a direct line on how to get fabricated parts. Cost, hard to say. You are making a "one of" part, dependent on its design, it could get pricey, generally more than most people want to spend, but since I don't know you, and you may be on of those people who would do it-I could certainly ask for you. And then give you a rough idea.

Sam03

Double post