Paul D.

So here's some information people might find interesting.

Mustang dyno, run in 4th gear, hood open, large industrial fan blowing, no external venting pipe attached to the back of the muffler (doors to shop had to be open).

First dyno runs done last Friday (Nov. 30th) when the car had 1550 km on it and was completely stock with the exception of 225/50x17 Toyo Garit HT winter tires. Best results: 191HP @ 5,000rpm 219 LBS @ 4,000

On Sunday I installed a Stillen exhaust (just a muffler, not a full cat-back) and Stillen intake. Runs done this morning with 1700km on car. Best results: 198HP @ 5,250 227 LBS @ 3,250

I started another thread yesterday seeking opinions on the UDP idea and am still undecided about it but will probably take the plunge and then do another dyno test. I'm hoping I don't need a special pully puller. I've got compressed air and an impact gun.

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

Check the How-to thread for installation instructions. No, you don't need a pulley puller for the install.

Your hp seems kind of low, but the torque is nice! I wish I can pull those numbers in my 2k.

RussMaxManiac

Hmm I find those readings a bit low. Because 222hp 5spd runs that stock.

Paul D.

Yep, it seems obvious that the HP numbers are kinda low, that's why I mentioned the kind of dyno which was used and the low mileage on the car. However there's way more information in that post then just what the HP numbers peak out at.

Anyway we should know more after this afternoon since Phatguy is going to dyno his '01 5 spd. (with a Stillen intake and Cattman Y-pipe) at the same place.

SteVTEC

Mustang brand dyno's are known to dyno a good bit conservatively compared to DynoJet and other brands, so i wouldn't worry about the hard numbers very much. The track performance of the 2k2's (14.7 auto, 14.3 stick) is proof enough of their performance.

Were the runs SAE corrected? What were the weather conditions at the time?

Paul D.

Thanks, I noticed no mention of a puller in the "how to" section and just wanted to make sure it wasn't just considered an obvious necessity.

The torque numbers certainly seem in line with what Nissan adverts so you'd have thought the HP would be in the ballpark too. It's got me to wondering if a dyno can be 'off' on the HP and not on the torque. I can't wait to hear what Phatguy's car does.

Paul D.

I'd read about the Mustang dynos being conservative, but if those torque numbers are as conservative as the HP numbers appear to be, then Nissan sure underestimated the torque in their specs.

We played around with different temp and pressure inputs (and did end up using 59F @ 29.92) but I was surprised to see how such changes made virtually no difference to the results. Since the runs were made indoors, the outdoor weather would not likely have much of an influence (the doors were only opened long enough for the exhaust to clear) but both days were similarly damp and about 12C (ie. 54F). I was told they keep the shop temperature at roughly 65F.

bigbadboss101

Yeah, 255 at crank, under 200 at the wheels? That's 20% loss. What is normal for % of hp loss for manual and autos?

SteVTEC

About 15% or so (Gen5 5spds dyno around 190), but as I stated above, that type of dyno is more on the conservative side, and not necessarily comparable to a DynoJet dyno.

UMD_MaxSE

iTrader: (1)

torque looks great!

Stereodude

It would seem that it can't because the two are mathematically related. HP = (Torque x RPM)/5252

Stereodude

Driven EF9

that's crazy! during your first run, you're making peak HP before the HP/TQ x-over point on the first run!

the TQ figure is pretty nice.

you should only lose 10%-15% to the drivetrain.

Newman

iTrader: (3)

15% for manual. 22% for auto. thats what ive read.

c5hardtop

I though it was the other way around. Generally, most people agree that the Dynojet 248C is the most accurate dyno. To my knowledge, mustang dynos have been known in some cases to product to high of numbers. However, if calibrated and working properly, both should be close.

Those numbers are vary low though, although I expected them to be a little low. I think 260hp rated Mustangs usually put down around 222-230.

c5hardtop

I did a quick search on the corvette forum to confirm, as many members have used both models... every member that has dynoed on both Mustang and Dynojets has found the Mustang to produce high numbers. I hope the Max won't show even lower numbers when used on a more accurate Dynojet.:

"There definitely seems to be a 10 (or so) hp difference with the Mustang and Dynojet dyno's, That 's what I'm hearing from the guys I go to the track with."

"My car made 15 more rwhp on the Mustang over the Dynojet."

"I have noticed exactly what you've stated. Someone even did a back to back test and the Mustang dyno showed 10-15 more HP than the Dynojet."

"Mustang 329 rwhp and 350 rwtq
Dynojet 316 rwhp and 314 rwtq "

"The interesting thing was that after the Mustang (351 RWHP) and the Dynojet (328 RWHP)"

SteVTEC

hmm, I dunno then. All I know is that...

Accord V6's dyno stock at 155 fwhp on a DynoJet
C&D Tested an AV6 stock at 150 fwhp on a Mustang.

There was also an MT article recently that looked at the SVT Mustang Cobra and the Camaro SS. They dynoed both on a Mustang dyno and it even said in the article that the Mustang-brand dyno is "of the more conservative" of dynos out there. I've also read other articles that seem to lead to the same conclusions as well...

Dave B

The Mustang dyno reads about 3-5% lower than a Dynojet. So Paul's modified numbers would be around 204-208fwhp and 234-238fwtq. Those are definately some strong numbers. Unfortunately Paul's shop didn't correct his power to SAE and we have no idea what the correction factor was. It does make some difference.

Anyways, the way it stands is that modded 2k2 6 speed Max has a real world power to weight ratio of about 1:15.8 (3250/206) and a stock 2k2 6 speed is 1:16.3 (3250/200)

Stock 2k-2k1 5th gen, depending on model, is 1:17.4 to 1:17.3 (3240/185)

Modded 5th gen SE with Y-pipe and intake, is 15.8 (3240/204)

Stock 4th gen, depending on model, is 1:18.6 to 1:18.1

A modded 4th gen 5 speed with a y-pipe, intake is 1:16.6 to 1:16.1 depending on model (3000/180 to 2920/180)



Dave

c5hardtop

There were issues with the dyno in the MT Cobra/SS test. It was way low, 30+ hp low. There are some other brand dynos that are known to be way high, like "supertrap" brand and others (so its conservative" compaired to them... the Mustang and Dynojet are know to the most accurate. However, in every case that I've ever seen with the same car being dynoed on both, the Mustang always has read higher, and most consider the Dynojet 248c the most accurate.

2001SE

DaveB
A modded 5th Gen SE 5sp has the same power to weight ration as a modded 5th gen 6sp

What does this mean?

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (1)

it means that the dyno of the 6 speed is off for some reason or another....becuase it wouldn't be pulling 14.3's (conservatively I might add) if it had the same power to weight ratio as a 5-speed...

I remeber a stock Auto 2k2 dynoing at 189 fwhp in the WRONG GEAR...so the 6-speed should dyno WAY more than 191 hp....

SteVTEC

Maybe the DynoJet's are more favorable to smaller engines (Honda/Acura) and Mustangs are more favorable to bigger ones?

That's entirely possible, but

And yeah, if the 2k/5spd and 2k2/6spd power to weight ratio's were really that close then I agree that we wouldn't be seeing any 6spds getting 14.3's at the track.

PhatGuy

Not exactly. He got 191HP when stock and got 198HP with Stillen intake and muffler. It is safe to say he the intake helps big time on the 2K2. The HP numbers are way off and the torque number seems right.

PhatGuy

I went to the same dyno today as well. I have a 2k1 5spd with intake/y-pipe. I got 190ft/lbs or torque and 180HP to the wheels. The guy really didn't know how to use the dyno settings properly. He didn't even redline my car and the times he did the chart cuts out around 6000. I kept explaining to him that the HP numbers I want are in the 6000-redline. The torque number seems about right from what I can tell. The 6spd with stillen intake/muffler put down 227ft/lbs vs my 190. I drove the 6spd with intake and muffler as well and it hauls ***! My HP being at 180 and his being at 191(stock) shows there is a definite problem with the way that dyno read our HP. I would add about 15-20HP to both our HP numbers for a more acurate reading.

In other words I should be around 195-200HP with intake and Y-pipe. He should be around 211hp Stock and 219 with his mods.

Paul he said he would give us some free runs once he figures out why our HP numbers are off. I did my car in 4th gear as well. He was playing with all sorts of variables in different runs.

I had our curves overlapped and it is interesting to see that:

1. the curves drop to zero at 6200 rpm so we don't get to see high end power.

2. The 6spd HP peaks at around 5250rpm while mine was at 5750 (that is a problem with the way he dynoed ..the guy didn't bring my car up to redline). The HP curves have the same slope where mine continues higher after his in the higher rpm 5250+. Our HP curves meet at the low 6000's.

3. The torque curve slope is very similar but his just higher throughout the rpm band except at around 5900+ (our curves meet)


Bottomline is the guy needs to know how to use his dyno. He called the manufacturer a couple of times when I was there so he is still learning.

6spd stock 255-191 = 63 That is crazy! A 25% loss?
5spd intake/y-pipe 180?? 239-180= 59 A 25% loss??? 239 being the estimate of my current crank HP.
We are trying to figure out what variable is wrong with the dyno. Is 190ft/lbs for a 5spd with intake/y-pipe about right though? The 6spd showed 219ft/lbs stock!

PhatGuy

Russ can you post pics or links of 5thgen 5spd dynos. Stock, intake, intake/y-pipe?

Or anyone else who has these?

I have the 2K2 Auto Dyno that was done and matching the slope of the curves with the 6spd dyno I found that: The slope of the torque curves are similar to each other with the 6spd consistantly higher numbers. There is something wrong with the dyno we did today for our HP at least since the stock auto 2K2 189HP and Paul D did 191 with his stock 6spd.

MAXinNH

Phatguy,

Check out the Dyno's from my 2000 SE 5sp. Done stock, + Stillen intake, + UDP, + Ypipe....

Thread is titled "Dyno Results from mods are in" started on 7-19-01

P

Greg's2kGLE

Yea you HP results seem a little low, but damn that torque is there. I wish I had that.

RussMaxManiac

As you requested...this is stock.

http://www.5thgenmaximas.com/russmaxmaniac/dyno2k1.jpg

I don't have any modded.

PhatGuy

Thanks! What RPM did you get your Max torque and HP at?

2k2se6spd

Yes, the HP numbers are low.

What is also strange is the RPMs where the HP supposedly peaks - only 5000 RPM?

Hmmm.....

RussMaxManiac

Max TQ hit at 3500 rpm..

Max HP at 6300 rpm

PhatGuy

Paul, Rick and I spoke about the dyno HP numbers being off. The correct numbers should be:

Stock 6spd:

210HP/219tq

6spd with Stillen Intake and Stillen Muffler:

218HP/227tq


My car 2K1 5spd with Stillen Intake and Cattman y-pipe

198HP/190tq


We will keep you posted with any new info from the dyno.

ToYLeT902

iTrader: (12)

interesting...

Stereodude

So this means that the car either has less HP than spec'd by Nissan, or more torque. It can't have a loss of 17% in the tranny on HP and only a 10% loss on torque. So it seems the HP rating by Nissan is a few HP high and the torque rating a few lb-ft low. Kinda hard to say after only seeing the dyno's of one car though.

Stereodude

wdave

Don't forget the winter tires - they probably cost quite a bit in this type of test.

Dave

Paul D.

Well I hope he doesn't screw with the dyno too much or it will mean when I go back with the UDP I'll have nothing to compare to and I sure don't plan on returning the car to stock step my step just to get new dyno numbers. The value of the dyno is in comparing test to test to see what changes accomplish, and not listenning to the notoriously unreliable BUTT dyno. I'd heard the Stillen muffler wouldn't do anything and the Stillen intake would do very little. My dyno results seem to dispute this since in my books 7HP and 8 LBS increase on 'my' dyno is a pretty respectable gain. Then there's what I'd heard about intakes causing lost 'bottom-end' but giving 'top-end', well, what I've seen (ie torque increase at 750rpm less) seems to dispute what was previously thought, or at least as it applies to an '02.

I appreciate you getting your car dynoed at the same place so we could be assured there was something wrong with the HP numbers, thanks. It'll be interesting to see what the UDP will do for the '02 never mind what a Y-pipe will do (if/when I can ever get one).

I'm guessing what's wrong with the HP on this dyno is related to the low RPM numbers. We were kinda figuring the HP was off by a minimum of 11%, well it seems reasonable the rpm is off by a similar amount. Consider the stock run where peak HP was made at 5,000 rpm, there's NO WAY Nissan could be 800 rpm off in where the peak HP is. Notwithstanding the fact that tachs can often be optmistic, I don't think Nissan would actually inflate the rpm at which the car makes peak HP.

What blows my mind about this whole dyno thing is he's had it for close to a year and spends a lot of time tuning a $250,000 Porsche race car on it, and yet it takes a couple guys with Maximas to figure out there's something wrong with the HP figures!

Cheers.

Rick Sudac

For those of you interested, here are the results that Paul D. and Phatboy^^ were talking about re the Mustang dyno yesterday. I havent had time to look at them myself but you will see where the HP numbers are suspect. Sorry I couldn<t figure out how to do an attachment so I just pasted in the info. Again, this is a 2002 6 speed with 1700KM or about 1000 miles on it with a Stillen air intake and muffler.

Speed (RPM), Torque (Ft-Lbs), HP (HP)
1000.00, 0.00, 0.00
1100.00, 76.63, 19.64
1200.00, 153.26, 39.28
1300.00, 191.63, 50.24
1400.00, 191.76, 52.50
1500.00, 191.88, 54.77
1600.00, 194.62, 59.34
1700.00, 197.36, 63.92
1800.00, 199.05, 68.22
1900.00, 199.69, 72.26
2000.00, 200.33, 76.30
2100.00, 202.17, 80.87
2200.00, 204.01, 85.45
2300.00, 207.59, 90.96
2400.00, 212.91, 97.41
2500.00, 218.23, 103.86
2600.00, 220.25, 109.07
2700.00, 222.27, 114.29
2800.00, 223.22, 118.98
2900.00, 223.09, 123.14
3000.00, 222.97, 127.30
3100.00, 224.49, 132.52
3200.00, 226.02, 137.74
3300.00, 225.59, 141.72
3400.00, 223.21, 144.46
3500.00, 220.83, 147.21
3600.00, 218.72, 149.89
3700.00, 216.61, 152.57
3800.00, 217.39, 157.37
3900.00, 221.06, 164.29
4000.00, 224.73, 171.20
4100.00, 224.45, 175.26
4200.00, 224.18, 179.32
4300.00, 223.48, 182.99
4400.00, 222.37, 186.28
4500.00, 221.25, 189.57
4600.00, 218.90, 191.65
4700.00, 216.54, 193.74
4800.00, 213.84, 195.37
4900.00, 210.78, 196.57
5000.00, 207.73, 197.76
5100.00, 203.98, 197.99
5200.00, 200.23, 198.23
5300.00, 196.06, 197.83
5400.00, 191.48, 196.81
5500.00, 186.89, 195.78
5600.00, 181.76, 193.71
5700.00, 176.63, 191.64
5800.00, 171.90, 189.80
5900.00, 167.57, 188.18
6000.00, 163.23, 186.57
6100.00, 160.54, 185.12
6200.00, 157.85, 183.66
6300.00, 125.20, 146.35
6400.00, 62.60, 73.18
6500.00, 0.00, 0.00

SteVTEC

Actually, it can. Tranny and drivetrain losses go up as the RPM's increase. Since the peak torque occurs at a lower RPM than peak horsepower, the peak torque figure would be less affected and the peak HP figure would be more affected.

c5hardtop

I'm not saying the dyno is right or wrong... but those "corrected" numbers he gave you were probably just guesses to make you happy. Correcton does't yield 20hp more from my knowledge. If the temperature was 65 degrees (or lower) in the shop, the numbers would be corrected for standard temp (70 degrees) and the other factors... so corrected numbers would be about the same as the "actual" or probably LOWER, since the car was ran in more faverable weather than standard. Sounds like he just gave you higher numbers to make you happy. Maybe the dyno was just unaccurate (hopefully).

Paul D.

'Correction' is usually considered to be the SAE Standard which is 59F and 29.92 BP, not 70F.

I believe the "corrected numbers" Phatguy mentions above were just conservative estimates he did and not something 'official' done by the dyno. The dyno guy is still trying to figure out what's going on.

PhatGuy

They dyno only shows the curve up to 6200rpm even though he redline my car on each run. My torque numbers were correct and the HP numbers were off approx 10%-11% as well as the peak HP rpm.

If someone can please show me some more dynos of 2k-2k1 5spds with stillen intake/y-pipe I can resolve the problem. And hopefully get the dyno guy on track. I have Max Gators, MaxNH, and another guy. Problem is I don't have the peak HP/TQ numbers other than Gators.

Trust me there is no way my car with the mods in question is 180HP and the stock 2k2 6spd 191HP. The dyno shop is trying to figure out what variable(s) need to be calibrated especially since the dyno plot is only showing up to 6200rpm and the HP numbers are very low.

Please post any 2k-2k1 5spd dynos with intake and y-pipe or stock 2k2 6spd dynos as well as the peak HP/TQ Rpm!