Alignment Necessary after strut replacement?
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Alignment Necessary after strut replacement?
Camber, Caster and Kingpin Inclination
NHSU0007S02
Camber, caster and kingpin inclination are preset at factory
and cannot be adjusted.
and cannot be adjusted.
1. Measure camber, caster and kingpin inclination of both right
and left wheels with a suitable alignment gauge.
and left wheels with a suitable alignment gauge.
Camber, caster and kingpin inclination:
Refer to SDS, SU-14.
Refer to SDS, SU-14.
2. If camber, caster or kingpin inclination is not within
specification, inspect front suspension parts. Replace damaged
or worn out parts.specification, inspect front suspension parts. Replace damaged
After finding this in the Factory Service Manual, I question the need for an alignment after installing new struts, (front & rear).
I can't see altering toe-in with the install and if you can't adjust caster/camber,what's the point of an alignment?
Am I missing something here?
camber can be thrown out if the shock is not in the correct orientation. I just replaced my shocks and i can tell the alignment is out but waiting for warranty replacement so i will align after the new ones go in
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Are the bolts that fasten the lower portion of the strut cam bolts? How can toe be affected by replacing struts? I have always thought that adjusting the tie rods altered toe. Could someone give me a clear explaination of how alignment is adjusted please?
the holes are bigger than the bolts, otherwise you would never get them back in. So if you loosened the bolts you would be able to move the shock back and forth. This will change the orientation of the spindle/hub assy
I've been under a few assumptions since replacing my struts a few weeks ago. One, that you give the setup a little while to settle in before getting an alignment. And two, if it tracks straight, then you need not bother.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_angle
Here you go...
Oh yeah....and camber won't effect whether the car tracks straight or not.
Here you go...
Oh yeah....and camber won't effect whether the car tracks straight or not.
I would say yes you will need one but never did just the struts but you will know in a couple of months when your car is pulling another way or your tire thread on one side is lower than the other!!
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Posts: 109
From: rio linda
first off if the struts are slotted then yes if they are just round holes! no you can only get 1 deg out of those non slotted and thats not gonna do any thing and maybe a deg and half with a cam bolt! but it never hurts to get it alignment done any way
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From: state of confusion
You need to at least check it.
Every replacement part has tolerances on its dimensions, including those on its means of attachment, meaning that holes are slightly oversize - and may not be in precisely the same location from one unit to another.
Most anything that affects camber will also indirectly affect toe. Some things more than others. Some make/model cars more than others.
It's why the factories have an acceptable range for the various alignment parameters - it is anticipated that people won't generally experience problems if the settings are held to being within them. But you do need to check them to see that they are.
Guess what - this can be done to well within acceptable accuracy as a DIY task right in your own driveway, if you know what it is that you're measuring, how to measure it, and have a little patience. Been DIY'ing all my alignments for not quite 30 years now.
Norm
Every replacement part has tolerances on its dimensions, including those on its means of attachment, meaning that holes are slightly oversize - and may not be in precisely the same location from one unit to another.
Most anything that affects camber will also indirectly affect toe. Some things more than others. Some make/model cars more than others.
It's why the factories have an acceptable range for the various alignment parameters - it is anticipated that people won't generally experience problems if the settings are held to being within them. But you do need to check them to see that they are.
Guess what - this can be done to well within acceptable accuracy as a DIY task right in your own driveway, if you know what it is that you're measuring, how to measure it, and have a little patience. Been DIY'ing all my alignments for not quite 30 years now.
Norm
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If you are planning to keep the car for awhile I'd go for a lifetime alignment like they offer at Firestone.
That way whenever you pull anything off, struts, tierods, balljoints, LCAs, whatever you just take it in and get it realigned.
I've had my Jeep back 4 times and they redid things.
I always replace my own stuff so they can't find anything to replace.
Just tell them you hit a large pothole and are afraid that something is off.
A regular alignment was around $90 and I think the lifetime was $200. I knew I was doing balljoiints and other suspension components in the future so I went for it.
Doing the balljoints, links, and LCAs on my Max this summer and will do the same thing.
Good Luck
That way whenever you pull anything off, struts, tierods, balljoints, LCAs, whatever you just take it in and get it realigned.
I've had my Jeep back 4 times and they redid things.
I always replace my own stuff so they can't find anything to replace.
Just tell them you hit a large pothole and are afraid that something is off.
A regular alignment was around $90 and I think the lifetime was $200. I knew I was doing balljoiints and other suspension components in the future so I went for it.
Doing the balljoints, links, and LCAs on my Max this summer and will do the same thing.
Good Luck
Spock, what are you going to do? I'm thinking I need to get more input on this, talk to my mechanic, talk to my dealership service manager, etc. My car tracks perfectly straight. But if the camber is off a little, well, those Eagle F1's I'm using cost a lot of money...
...OK, I just called my dealership. The Service Manager quoted me $20 to check the alignment. If it's OK, then I'm out the door. If it needs adjustment, the total price becomes $70. I've got a (lifetime) oil change coming up in a few weeks. I'm thinking I should arrange for this as well.
You should get an alignment anytime you change something that directly connects to the suspension of a car. Pounding bolts and replacing stuff can easily change alignment even if by just a little and its worth checking to save your tires.
This one makes some sense.
Spock, what are you going to do? I'm thinking I need to get more input on this, talk to my mechanic, talk to my dealership service manager, etc. My car tracks perfectly straight. But if the camber is off a little, well, those Eagle F1's I'm using cost a lot of money...
...OK, I just called my dealership. The Service Manager quoted me $20 to check the alignment. If it's OK, then I'm out the door. If it needs adjustment, the total price becomes $70. I've got a (lifetime) oil change coming up in a few weeks. I'm thinking I should arrange for this as well.
Spock, what are you going to do? I'm thinking I need to get more input on this, talk to my mechanic, talk to my dealership service manager, etc. My car tracks perfectly straight. But if the camber is off a little, well, those Eagle F1's I'm using cost a lot of money...
...OK, I just called my dealership. The Service Manager quoted me $20 to check the alignment. If it's OK, then I'm out the door. If it needs adjustment, the total price becomes $70. I've got a (lifetime) oil change coming up in a few weeks. I'm thinking I should arrange for this as well.
To me, an alignment is an alignment, as long as they can provide you before and after measurements.
Last edited by rroderiques77; Apr 12, 2010 at 06:43 AM.
Are there any shops in your area that will check it for free? And damn, $70 for a front end alignment is off the wall!!! I guess more power to you if you like that dealer...
To me, an alignment is an alignment, as long as they can provide you before and after measurements.
To me, an alignment is an alignment, as long as they can provide you before and after measurements.
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Posts: 1,341
From: state of confusion
And as long as they don't just "toe and go" you when you need just a little more work done (that doesn't have enough $ in it for them to push getting it done).
A little negative camber is OK, and the OE spec for the 2001's is -0.25° (preferred) with a ±0.75° tolerance. So even -1° would be "within spec". I'd expect the 2002 to be similar.
Bad toe is what generally wears tires out faster.
That said, if you drive the corners mildly to maybe moderately but frequently brake fairly hard - that's when you might want camber to be closer to zero than -1. Hard cornering addicts probably aren't going to be completely happy even at -1°.
Norm
A little negative camber is OK, and the OE spec for the 2001's is -0.25° (preferred) with a ±0.75° tolerance. So even -1° would be "within spec". I'd expect the 2002 to be similar.
Bad toe is what generally wears tires out faster.
That said, if you drive the corners mildly to maybe moderately but frequently brake fairly hard - that's when you might want camber to be closer to zero than -1. Hard cornering addicts probably aren't going to be completely happy even at -1°.
Norm
Are there any shops in your area that will check it for free? And damn, $70 for a front end alignment is off the wall!!! I guess more power to you if you like that dealer...
To me, an alignment is an alignment, as long as they can provide you before and after measurements.
To me, an alignment is an alignment, as long as they can provide you before and after measurements.
Glad you said something. Thanks, Roy.
How can you tell? What are you experiencing that leads you to think the car needs realignment?
I've been under a few assumptions since replacing my struts a few weeks ago. One, that you give the setup a little while to settle in before getting an alignment. And two, if it tracks straight, then you need not bother.
I've been under a few assumptions since replacing my struts a few weeks ago. One, that you give the setup a little while to settle in before getting an alignment. And two, if it tracks straight, then you need not bother.
As you mentioned, it is good practice to allow new suspension components to settle, but that should be accomplished in a short drive; but only if the alignment isn't grossly out of spec, which should be easily felt. Frequent internet stories/myths about suspension settling regard poor quality springs which sag (weaken; spring rate decreases) and cause alignment changes as the vehicle lowers itself.
This ▼▼▼▼▼ is why. For our front suspension ride height effects camber and toe & camber effects toe. Also, a pry-bar is a great alignment tool.
You need to at least check it.
Every replacement part has tolerances on its dimensions, including those on its means of attachment, meaning that holes are slightly oversize - and may not be in precisely the same location from one unit to another.
Most anything that affects camber will also indirectly affect toe. Some things more than others. Some make/model cars more than others.
It's why the factories have an acceptable range for the various alignment parameters - it is anticipated that people won't generally experience problems if the settings are held to being within them. But you do need to check them to see that they are.
Guess what - this can be done to well within acceptable accuracy as a DIY task right in your own driveway, if you know what it is that you're measuring, how to measure it, and have a little patience. Been DIY'ing all my alignments for not quite 30 years now.
Norm
Every replacement part has tolerances on its dimensions, including those on its means of attachment, meaning that holes are slightly oversize - and may not be in precisely the same location from one unit to another.
Most anything that affects camber will also indirectly affect toe. Some things more than others. Some make/model cars more than others.
It's why the factories have an acceptable range for the various alignment parameters - it is anticipated that people won't generally experience problems if the settings are held to being within them. But you do need to check them to see that they are.
Guess what - this can be done to well within acceptable accuracy as a DIY task right in your own driveway, if you know what it is that you're measuring, how to measure it, and have a little patience. Been DIY'ing all my alignments for not quite 30 years now.
Norm
I'm with NmexMAX, knight_yyz & Norm Peterson. If you loosen the lower strut bolts in any way, you need an alignment.
As previously mentioned, even if your car is tracking straight your camber can still be off, leading to premature wear of your tires. I don't believe Toe is affected unless you're messing with spindle/tie rod ends - though it may be a secondary effect from the camber being off. And caster - I don't think that's ever affected because of the way our suspensions are designed.
But I'm no pro so take my advice with a grain of salt - the same way you should be taking everyone else's.
As previously mentioned, even if your car is tracking straight your camber can still be off, leading to premature wear of your tires. I don't believe Toe is affected unless you're messing with spindle/tie rod ends - though it may be a secondary effect from the camber being off. And caster - I don't think that's ever affected because of the way our suspensions are designed.
But I'm no pro so take my advice with a grain of salt - the same way you should be taking everyone else's.
Last edited by djfrestyl; Apr 12, 2010 at 02:42 PM.
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From: Pleasanton,CA
Never did an alignment when I did my suspension work even when I fixed tie rods. It depends on which school of thought you come from, for me as long as I don't hit a curb (which I haven't till date), the car will drive straight.
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You need to at least check it.
Every replacement part has tolerances on its dimensions, including those on its means of attachment, meaning that holes are slightly oversize - and may not be in precisely the same location from one unit to another.
Most anything that affects camber will also indirectly affect toe. Some things more than others. Some make/model cars more than others.
It's why the factories have an acceptable range for the various alignment parameters - it is anticipated that people won't generally experience problems if the settings are held to being within them. But you do need to check them to see that they are.
Guess what - this can be done to well within acceptable accuracy as a DIY task right in your own driveway, if you know what it is that you're measuring, how to measure it, and have a little patience. Been DIY'ing all my alignments for not quite 30 years now.
Norm
Every replacement part has tolerances on its dimensions, including those on its means of attachment, meaning that holes are slightly oversize - and may not be in precisely the same location from one unit to another.
Most anything that affects camber will also indirectly affect toe. Some things more than others. Some make/model cars more than others.
It's why the factories have an acceptable range for the various alignment parameters - it is anticipated that people won't generally experience problems if the settings are held to being within them. But you do need to check them to see that they are.
Guess what - this can be done to well within acceptable accuracy as a DIY task right in your own driveway, if you know what it is that you're measuring, how to measure it, and have a little patience. Been DIY'ing all my alignments for not quite 30 years now.
Norm
Care to elaborate a little on how and what to measure?
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This one makes some sense.
Spock, what are you going to do? I'm thinking I need to get more input on this, talk to my mechanic, talk to my dealership service manager, etc. My car tracks perfectly straight. But if the camber is off a little, well, those Eagle F1's I'm using cost a lot of money...
...OK, I just called my dealership. The Service Manager quoted me $20 to check the alignment. If it's OK, then I'm out the door. If it needs adjustment, the total price becomes $70. I've got a (lifetime) oil change coming up in a few weeks. I'm thinking I should arrange for this as well.
Spock, what are you going to do? I'm thinking I need to get more input on this, talk to my mechanic, talk to my dealership service manager, etc. My car tracks perfectly straight. But if the camber is off a little, well, those Eagle F1's I'm using cost a lot of money...
...OK, I just called my dealership. The Service Manager quoted me $20 to check the alignment. If it's OK, then I'm out the door. If it needs adjustment, the total price becomes $70. I've got a (lifetime) oil change coming up in a few weeks. I'm thinking I should arrange for this as well.
If there is a good amount of play with the holes, I will, no matter how it tracks.
My fear is that I'll take it in to get aligned and the service manager will come out and say, "Well, your camber is a little off, but it's non-adjustable on your vehicle. Your total is $101.70, how would you like to pay?"
^^ They'll still align it the best they can. If you lower your car you're not going to be able to get some of the specs back within the factory range, but it WILL be closer than what you leave it as when you bolt everything back up.
Just get the alignment. Find a Firestone. Lifetime alignment is $169. I get one every time I have them change my oil.
Just get the alignment. Find a Firestone. Lifetime alignment is $169. I get one every time I have them change my oil.
Care to elaborate a little on how and what to measure?
Your car can drive straight and be out of alignment. Basically you are adding extra wear on your tires and you will replacing them much fast then you need to.
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All my parts arrived today. Hopefully I'll get after the install this weekend.
If you live in Canada, Rockauto is great. No extra charges whatsoever. They charge GST @ the checkout and shipping ,(of course), and there are no more charges. It appears that they have their own broker in Canada. This was for the mounts, boots & bump stops.
From the other supplier, (for the struts), I had to pay a brokerage fee, PST and GST.
Just a heads up to my fellow Canucks.
If you live in Canada, Rockauto is great. No extra charges whatsoever. They charge GST @ the checkout and shipping ,(of course), and there are no more charges. It appears that they have their own broker in Canada. This was for the mounts, boots & bump stops.
From the other supplier, (for the struts), I had to pay a brokerage fee, PST and GST.
Just a heads up to my fellow Canucks.
I lowered my previous car and it tracked straight so I didn't get an alignment. Well acouple hundred miles later the insides of my tires were way more worn the the outside edge. It turned out that the toe was out by 1.5" or something crazy like that...so anytime you take the suspension apart, I'd get it aligned. Better safe than sorry.
^^^
Well, that's it then. These comments have convinced me. I'm getting my front-end alignment checked next week with the oil change. Thanks for the input, Rhyno.
Spock, I'm glad you started this thread. I think we learned something important.
Well, that's it then. These comments have convinced me. I'm getting my front-end alignment checked next week with the oil change. Thanks for the input, Rhyno.
Spock, I'm glad you started this thread. I think we learned something important.
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Posts: 1,124
From: Leicester, Ma
I didnt se anyone mention this but when you do lower a car your factory toe gets thrown out the window. With our susp at normal height the lower control arm is not parallel to the ground. i dont know the degree but it has some angle on each side.. Ex. /---\ when you lower the car the inner area of the control arms gets closer to the ground while the area at the ball joint stays the same producing a different angle to the control arms. As most notice once the car is lowered the wheels produce more negative camber. This also changes toe as the car is lowered the tie rods spread and when the car is lifted the tie rods come closer together so to speak.
Here is some more in depth info getting my point across a whole lot better.
http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2...n/tracking.htm
http://mk3ukr-supra.net/SCC%20-%20su...20part%204.pdf
Here is some more in depth info getting my point across a whole lot better.
http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2...n/tracking.htm
http://mk3ukr-supra.net/SCC%20-%20su...20part%204.pdf
Last edited by jeff5347; Apr 14, 2010 at 07:27 AM.
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Posts: 1,341
From: state of confusion
Camber can be measured using a $40 digital angle finder. It'll be good to 0.1°, which is plenty good considering that factory tolerances from "preferred" are at least ±0.5°. Set it up against the wheel and adjust until there is "zero bubble". Caster is computed from a pair of camber measurements, with the wheels steered to specific amounts in each direction.
With a pair of parallel strings, you can measure toe. With a little practice, you can probably work to within about ±1/32" (under ±0.1°).
You will need a flat place to set up on, or find a way to shim the low spots, and possibly still correct for a little pavement slope. None of this is difficult. Just a little fussy.
Wish I could post thumbnail attachment pics directly. Photo hosting sites are out because I can't get to them from here (work).
Camber gauge
Norm
With a pair of parallel strings, you can measure toe. With a little practice, you can probably work to within about ±1/32" (under ±0.1°).
You will need a flat place to set up on, or find a way to shim the low spots, and possibly still correct for a little pavement slope. None of this is difficult. Just a little fussy.
Wish I could post thumbnail attachment pics directly. Photo hosting sites are out because I can't get to them from here (work).
Camber gauge
Norm
Last edited by Norm Peterson; Apr 14, 2010 at 09:52 AM.
