Has anyone talked about this problem here yet? It is an active topic on the http://www.edmund.com forum.

The problem is the ECU programming of the Maxima 5spd. It is difficult to cruise at low speeds (5-15mph) in first or second gear, because the fuel gets cut off so often that the car jerks back and forth. It happens in higher gears just less noticeable.

Anyone knows how to deal with it?

Yuan

 

LEARN HOW TO DRIVE A STICK! This is not a problem for me...the gas is just a tad bit on the touchy side (Or can I say more RESPONSIVE!)

 

It's not a problem...it's a feature.

 

I read about it in one of my motor trends. I think it was the blue MT with the benz and the ferrari. The one that has ten convertibles including the chrysler 300 hemi, Toyota Celica convertible, MR2 Spyder, miata, Kia Sportage, eclipse spyder, firebird, and more. It was in the back long term updates section.

 

The problem was also reported in an Edmunds article. Check out:

http://www.edmunds.com/edweb/editori...ima/index.html

Look for a section in italics after the eighth paragraph that starts with the words, "A side note about the tests: . . ."

Edmunds has locked onto this issue. Here's a message I just received from their Editor-in-Chief:

"We haven't forgotten you. We were unable to arrange a loan of a 2000 Maxima, but Nissan is supplying us with a 20th Anniversary 2001 Maxima in a couple of weeks. The only reason we're borrowing the car is to investigate this concern."

The concern he refers to is the fuel-cut problem we've been discussing in the Edmunds.com forum at:

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/eng...nce&f=0&t=1698

If you decide to visit the forum, take a good look at Post #2 for a detailed explanation of the cause of the problem.

In case you're wondering if you have the problem, here are a few simple tests you can perform:

1) Can you maintain rpm on an unloaded engine at or below 2500 rpm?

2) Can you maintain a constant speed in 1st gear at 1800 rpm?

3) Accelerate rapidly in 2nd or 3rd gear to around 2500 rpm and then shift normally. Does your rpm drop right away, hang up, or actually rise a few hundred rpm?

If your answers to questions 1 and 2 are "no" and your answer to question 3 is something besides "drop right away", you've got the fuel-cut problem.

[Edited by y2kse on 11-21-2000 at 07:51 PM]

 

Go read back a few months ago - this has been beaten to a pulp. You'll find all the info you want.

 

why are we back on deriding people's driving skills? I thought we agreed that your car doesnt do it and youre not affected. Believe me, if your car did it like some others, thats that last thing you'd want. I think its hard enough dealing with service and corporate...

 

In the morning when cold, I will get my car rolling and let off of the gas. I let the car glide and it will jerk with a forward and backward feeling like it is struggling to keep going. Is this what you guys are talking about? I also had a jerking at 2000 rpm when I tried to accelerate. I went to the dealership, they searched for error codes, and found nothing. Then I got my intake in hoping that would help and now they won't touch my car.

 

I had the same problem with "jerking" after cold morning starts but fine rest of the day. It only happened occasionally and went away after a couple months. As for dealing with dealer service, next time put the stock intake back in before going to the dealer or find another dealer if you have to.

 

Point well taken.

Here are my contentions: (1) My engine when unloaded at a normal operating temperature will not maintain rpm below 2500 rpm without dropping to idle. (2) My vehicle will not maintain a constant speed in 1st gear in a range between 1500 rpm and 2500 rpm. (3) My vehicle increases rpm between shifts when I accelerate aggressively to 2500 rpm in 1st, 2nd or 3rd gear and then shift normally.

I made the following offer on the Edmunds board and I'll make it here as well. If anyone wants to try to disprove my contentions, come and test my vehicle as it stands. I'll pay the first person who can prove me wrong $100.00. Until then, every person who tries and fails to prove me wrong will pay me $100.00. This offer expires 30 days from today's date.

Any takers?

PS: I live in So. Cal.

 

Ill vouch for your assertions. My car acts exactly like your does. When the engine is cold, its brutal. I like the car, but am shocked that Nissan would ship a car with these characteristics.

My car will be the southern (FLA) test car. That way we can collect twice as many $100 bills!

 

Now we've got one Max on the West Coast and one Max on the East Coast ready and waiting for the scoffers to arrive with cash in hand. I hope they hurry too. Christmas is just around the corner and I could use a little extra money to buy presents with.

[Edited by y2kse on 11-23-2000 at 03:48 PM]

 

My 2001 AE performs exactly as described. Can't maintain
2500 RPM or less on an unloaded engine. Having said this,
I don't find the car difficult to drive at any speed. I
will admit that compared to other sticks I've driven, the
maxima took me a couple of days to "feel out". Since then
I've had no problems.

I suspect that every 2000> 5spd maxima performs exactly the
same way (whether people here want to admit it or not). I
believe that the magnitude of the problem has been
exagerrated though.

 

two to go.

Can you drive your car in 1st gear at 1800 rpm and maintain a constant speed?

Does your rpm increase between shifts when you accelerate aggressively to 2500 rpm and then shift normally?

If your answer to the first question is "no" and your answer to the second question is "yes", you too can join the great 5-speed fuel-cut shootout. Let us know where you're located and we'll send your local scoffers to you with their $100.00 in hand. Who knows. You may end up with an early Xmas present too.

[Edited by y2kse on 11-23-2000 at 03:37 PM]

 

is this condition evident all of the time or only really in 1st gear? I mean I test drove a 5spd Max about a month ago and besides it having an awful lot of power in 1st gear(more than I'm used too I guess), it drove fine. I did try to hold the rpms at 2 grand and was not able to...the tach jumped up way over...

At a party a few nights ago I met someone who has a 5 spd Maxima...I asked him some questions on how he like the car etc....first he said he is probably going to die in the car because it is so fast! When I asked him if he had any trouble driving it he did say that the car did take some getting used to compared to other manuals he has driven but he loves it to death......however he said God help you if you are really accelerating hard in first and you take your foot off of the gas......said your neck will be in a brace for a month

Seriously....if you don't drive in bumper to bumper traffic or stop and go....is this really an issue?

I don't doubt a word that anyone has said about having problesm with their 5 spds....believe me, I know first hand on Nissan's commitment to a customer who has issues with the car.

As I said above. I test drove a 5 spd and other than having to get used to the extra power in 1st gear, it drove fine.....then again I'm talking about a 5 minute test drive wheras you guys have had your cars for many months...I suppose the test drives were fine for you also

 

The driveability problem is most pronounced in 1st gear, but the fuel-cut condition exists in all gears. The only way around it when driving in 1st gear at low rpm is to shift into 2nd gear prematurely or disengage the clutch much more often than I've found necessary with any other manual transmission vehicle I've ever driven . . . and I've driven a lot of manual transmission vehicles.

How bad is the fuel-cut condition? That depends on who you talk to and how much time they have to spend driving in rush-hour traffic. Regardless of who you talk to, however, the condition does exist. And it has absolutely nothing to do with driver competency. That's why I'm willing to put up hard money to prove my point. I might add that so far, nobody has been willing to belly up to the bar to try to prove me wrong.

 

I haven't paid much attention, but whenever I hop from one of my Hondas into my pops GXE, I have noticed that during lazy shifts, the RPM's will just hang there for a moment.

Not sure if it's related, though. I will try those other tests next time I'm driving it.

 

I didn't want my post to sound like I don't believe you....I've followed the Edmunds forums long enough to know that a lot of people are unhappy with this issue.

I was basically asking if the issue was so bad that it makes the car absolutely unbearable to drive. I don't drive in stop and go traffic all that much so I'm wondering if I'd feel it all that much. My commute is about 5-7 minutes each way and most of that is highway.

Actually one of my other complaints about the 5spd besides all the power in 1st(which isnt really a complaint, just not used to it) was that the car was so quiet that I could not hear the engine as far as when to shift Had to really concentrate on the tach which I'm not used to either.

I really miss driving a stick as I find the auto totally boring to drive

While I wish I bought a stick, do you guys wish you had chosen the automatic due to these issues? Or another brand? Just trying to feel you guys out to see if getting a stick is worth it.

 

As I mentioned in a previous post, I too can reproduce
the symptoms outlined. It has not affected my use of
the car. My previous car (99 V6 Contour SE 5spd)
behaved in a similar way, very sensitive in first gear.
BTW, I really enjoy driving this car and don't feel this
is any kind of issue for me.


My wife drives the car to work and has never mentioned
any problems controlling the car at low speeds.
.

 

Man! I can't beleive you. Auto is awesome! Sure you lose a bit on acceleration, but the auto in a max is still quick. I love my auto. Maybe it's just the fact that I don't street race as often as you guys do.

 

Nope, would never have bought an automatic. This
"issue" is not an issue for me. I love the car and
can't image buying anything else at this price point.

 

I generally tend to side with those who find the fuel-cut issue to be more of an annoyance than a serious problem. Nevertheless, I'm part of a support group dedicated to getting to the bottom of this issue, so I'm bound to see it through to the bitter end.

Whether or not Nissan ever admits the problem exists and issues a TSB to correct it, I intend to drive my 5-speed until the wheels fall off.

 

Sorry for the long post, but this is a technical explaination of the fuel cut problem:

In a sentence, the smoking gun is the idle control valve, and the way that it is controlled by the ECM.

The 2K Maxima is designed to accelerate aggressively with only a slight movement of the gas pedal. The way that Nissan achieves this is by simultaneously dumping a huge amount of auxiliary air into the engine via the idle control valve. Nissan Engineers probably did this to “wind up” the automatic transmission torque converter as quickly as possible in order to make the car very quick off the line.

The aggressiveness of this air dump is VERY new to the 2000 Maxima design. In fact, the entire intake system (including the idle control valve) is different from the 1999 model. In addition, the ECM was redesigned for year 2000. The large amount of air that is dumped into the engine via the idle control valve is not a huge problem at first, except that it’s possible to run over a pedestrian. However, the extra air ends up being a problem when slowing down because the idle control valve is not subsequently closed as thegas pedal is released.

The “fuel-cut” scenario goes like this:

The driver steps on the gas to accelerate, and the idle control valve opens to assist with the acceleration. The increased voltage on the TPS (throttle position sensor) provides an “advance notice” to the computer to expect additional air. This expected additional air is then matched with additional fuel from the injectors. The computer then watches the mass air flow sensor signal to verify that the additional air really did arrive, and if a major discrepancy is detected between the TPS signal and the mass air flow sensor, the check engine light will be illuminated. Ultimately, the mass air flow sensor (and exhaust sensors to some extent) have final control over the amount of fuel that is injected into the engine. The TPS only provides “advance warning” to the computer and does not ultimately control this process.

And so, after the engine has accelerated and the car is traveling at some higher speed, the driver will eventually want to slow down. The most obvious way to do this is to just ease off the gas pedal. However, as the driver attempts to deprive the engine of air by releasing the gas pedal, the engine continues to acquire large quantities of air from the idle control valve. (Remember… I said earlier that the idle control valve remains open even as the gas pedal is released). Because the mass air flow sensor has the final say in how much fuel is injected into the engine, and because the engine continues to receive air through the idle control valve, the engine continues to produce more power than is desired. Finally, when the gas pedal reaches the end of its travel, the TPS outputs a “throttle closed voltage and the computer subsequently cuts fuel. This is the “fuel-cut” phenomenon that so many have complained about.

Thus, the engine cycles from producing a fairly significant amount of power to producing NEGATIVE power in the fuel-cut mode. The word “negative” is used because the engine is compression braking during the “fuel-cut” mode. There is no in-between it either produces too much power or negative power.

And now back to the sequence off events:

While the “fuel-cut” condition is in effect, the engine provides maximum compression braking. It is also operating at maximum vacuum… which means that it is sucking as much air as possible through the idle control valve. However, as long as the TPS is outputing a “throttle closed” position, the “fuel-cut” mode remains in effect.

If at some point during the “fuel-cut” mode the driver decides to speed up, the TPS will subsequently stop outputting the “throttle closed” voltage and the computer will begin providing fuel to the engine. Because the idle control valve has remained open during the entire “fuel-cut” period, and because the mass air flow sensor has continued to see air flowing into the engine, the computer calls for a large amount of fuel to match the air that is flowing into the engine. Thus, the car will accelerate more than expected. Sometimes this surprising acceleration will cause the driver to quickly let off the gas, only to be subjected to an immediate “fuel-cut” again. Thus, a vicious cycle can occur during low speed driving… lurch accelerate) forward… hard compression braking… lurch forward… hard compression braking… etc.

Excessive air from the idle control valve is also the cause of rising engine rpm’s between shift changes. A small delay is designed into the ECM prior to issuing a “fuel cut”, and as the engine continues to acquire air through the idle control valve during shifts, the computer matches this air with fuel. Thus, the unloaded engine rpm’s will float up about 400-500 rpm during each shift change.

And so, the engine cycles continually between too much power and too little power with no ability to feather the throttle up and down at minimal outputs of power. This cycle repeats itself over and over and over and over again… until the driver is stark raving crazy. To further enhance the drivers emotional torture, Nissan Engineers and zone reps routinely tell owners (with a straight face) that the car is perfect and “it is all in the drivers head”.

The “fuel-cut” problem manifests itself in several ways:

1.) Excessive fuel consumption because the engine gets a big dump of air and fuel each time it comes off of idle, and because the engine is often producing more power than is desired.

2.) An engine that lurches between no power and too much power while operating with cruise control.

3.) An uncontrollable throttle on 5-speed models, making the car lurch badly at low speeds and annoyingly at higher speeds.

4.) Rising engine rpm’s between shifts on the5-speed models.

5.) Unsafe/uncontrollable accelerations when starting out, which can cause a collision with another vehicle, or possibly with a pedestrian.

For those of you who want to argue that this is normal, and was done because of emissions, let me remind you that emissions laws are the same for year 1999 and 2000. This driveability problem has only surfaced with the 2000 model. Furthermore, other manufacturers have not resorted to such high flows of air and fuel to achieve compliance with emissions laws, so why should the Maxima be unique in that regard?

Also, for those of you who want to argue that only a few Maximas have the “fuel-cut” problem, and it must be due to a faulty component, I would have to disagree. I have yet to find a 2000 Maxima that passes the stationary test trying to ease rpm’s from 3,000 rpm to 2,000 rpm). They all fail this test (both 5-speeds and automatics) because of the idle control valve. The only real difference from one car to the next is the driver. Some slight differences probably exist from car to car, but the biggest variable has to be the driver.

For those of you who think there must be a faulty component, then here is a list of the candidates: Idle Control Valve, Throttle Position Sensor, Absolute Pressure Sensor, Front and Rear Oxygen sensor, VIAS system, Mass Air Flow Sensor, Intake Air Temperature Sensor, Coolant Temperature Sensor, EGR system, and EVAP system. Go ahead and check them all out. I think you will find all of them to be in good working order. It is the ECM's control of the idle control valve that is the problem.

In summary, the 2K Maxima engine has been optimized for the automatic transmission with little or no thought given to its compatibility with a manual transmission. The 2K Maxima 5-speed needs to have its own engine control software rather than shared software with the automatic models. THE IDLE CONTROL VALVE NEEDS TO BE CLOSED AS THE GAS PEDAL IS RELEASED. FURTHERMORE, THE IDLE CONTROL VALVE DOES NOT NEED TO BE OPENED SO SEVERELY WHEN ACCELERATING FROM IDLE SPEED.

 

Bigk200 is a member of the support group I referred to in my previous post. He's also a mechanical engineer who has spent a great deal of time researching this issue.

Hey Bigk200, wanna join our great 5-speed fuel-cut shootout? You're located approximately midway between the West Coast and the East Coast. There may be some money in it for you if anyone is courageous enough to challenge your findings.

[Edited by y2kse on 11-24-2000 at 10:47 AM]

 

I'll leave all of the "winnings" for you. Just knowing that I(we) are correct is good enough for me.

 

The problem is more with the three mode throttle position switch. It has isle, run and wide open throttle detents. This is the norm on the Bosch pattern airflow sensing systems for some time. What causes the problem is that under very light loads the idle switch is engaged, the ecu says "idle too high" and cuts the fuel. This was apparent in my '80 Fiat, '86 and '94 Mazdas and now my 2000 Maxima. It is worse in the Maxima for two reasons - 1. MUCH more power and 2. slightly more aggressive tuning for smog. You might be able to improve the situation some by adjusting the switch so it only goes to idle with the pedal not touched at all - but you must also ensure that the linkage makes it to the wide open throttle position. The other thing that works is to ensure there's enough load on the engine to keep away from the idle position - such as using one gear higher for creeping. I will agree though, that it makes it much harder to demonstrate the sonorous nature of your expensive aftermarket exhaust.

wdave

 

I copied your post to the Edmunds.com forum. We'll see if anyone would care to comment.

 

I didn't know about the idle air valve addition specific to the Max - that would surely make the surging problem worse given the nature of the system - so there are really 3 reasons why it is worse with my Maxima than any of the other Bosch(nippondenso) cars I have had. I am still able to drive around it easily - even on the Cross Bronx Expressway!

Dave

 

I have yet to find a 2000 Maxima that passes the stationary test trying to ease rpm’s from 3,000 rpm to 2,000 rpm). They all fail this test (both 5-speeds and automatics) because of the idle control valve.

Mine passes this test.

The throttle is very sensitive and you have to change the pressure very lightly to accomplish it. But, I can do it with no problem. I can break it all the way down to idle.

I believe that some problem must exist for some of you. And, I am glad to hear that some of you are actively pursuing it. Either my car is different or I have better fine motor control from all those video games I play! LOL.

 

I am not going to argue with you over and over about this, as I have better things to do, but there is absolutely no way that your car will pass this test. If the engine is warmed up and there are no external loads (such as the air conditioner), and if the car is in neutral, then is impossible for it to pass this test.

Many times in other discussion groups, people have made the same claim, and they will either fade away silently, or they will later admit that their car would not pass the test. There is no way that your car will be the exception.

What part of the world do you live in? If it is true that your car will pass this test, then maybe one of my frustrated 5-speed owner friends would like to see it with their own eyes. I have an extensive list of people who live in many different states.

 

the problem here is a drivablity issue.. that *IS* the real test. Having felt it, I know it exists.

But, given the huge variance in cars exhibiting this, I say its totally possible that his car can do whatever he says. (yeah, I know some peeps sleep better at night thinking their car is perfect )

Seems things are civil here, what is it about his car that allows him to feather the throttle? Is it a mechanical difference? Even from Nissan themselves, the autofuel cutoff should kick in. I know mine cant be brought down to idle. I'm just curious as to what would allow his to?

 

Tim,

He can't do it, period. He can say he can do it all he wants, but it is not possible. I've looked at too many 2k Maxima's myself and challenged too many people who said they could do it with their cars, and in the end, none of them could pass this test.

The test is relevant because it is a perfect demonstration of how the car behaves under normal driving conditions. For those drivers who are "all on" and "all off" of the gas pedal, then they probably don't notice how jerky the car drives, but for those who try to drive smoothly, it is impossible to do so.

 

**So what - the "test" is an artificial situation! Throttle foot sensitivity is a big help. The system is flawed to some extent in that it requires a big dose of the "S" (skill) word to drive successfully. There is no doubt that there's an inconvenience but what do you want - over 200hp, no smog and 30mpg on trips.

 

I am not "arguing" with you and don't appreciate your attack. You posted a test. I performed the test. My car was able to do it.

HOWEVER, after reading your response, I realized that you did not specify that the engine needed to be fully warmed up. I did not perform the test when the car was fully warm. I originally performed it this morning after the car had been sitting for a couple of hours.

So, I went back outside and tried again. Again the car had been sitting for a couple of hours. I was able to do it. Then I drove about 5 miles and tried again. It would not work. I could only stop at about 2750. YOU ARE RIGHT!

Having said that, I do not appreciate your attack on me.

I'll leave it at that.

[Edited by Max_Gator on 11-25-2000 at 04:00 PM]

 

why can't we enjoy this new feature that Nissan implemented in the new Maxima? I guess that is the 2% secret sauce that Nissan has been advertising!

 

I apologize for my attitude. Between the stock market, the election, and last but not least, Nissan, my patience is a little thin. I'll try to be more civil.

I don't normally frequent this board, so I'll try not to **** everyone off no sooner than I got here.

 

I know how you feel about the market and the election. No offense taken.

 

For anyone who thinks that their car has the "fuel-cut" problem, send an email to Matt Stone who works at MotorTrend. He has more pull with Nissan than we do.

His email is: stonem@emapUSA.com

 

Hey guys- I was kinda holding back posting on this issue, I work at a Nissan dealer & I have spoken to Bruce several times, he of course challenged me to test my car for the fuel-cut symptom, and I have finally gotten it to do it! My car is a very late 2000 SE 5-sp, 06/21/2000 build date, Nissan did change the ECM on the late 2k's, I had thought for a while that my car was immune to this, but sure enough, when you give it the 1st gear test, the rpm tries to "ooze up" at a steady throttle, when you let off & then get back in, you get the herky-jerks, not nearly as bad as some have described, but it is there! I don't really drive too much in heavy traffic, and when I do, I either grab 2nd if the speeds allow it, or keep it in 1st and cycle the clutch. I think that the otherwise fantastic smoothness of the Maxima's powertrain kinda causes this symptom to be a slap in the face, I know I have driven many other injected 5-speed cars of other makes, and they seem to do it too! As far as what I would reccomend, remember the old saying, "the squeeky wheel gets the grease" The more Nissan knows about this problem, the more likely it is tht something will happen to correct it! Regards, David Burnette,
South Point Nissan

 

Thanks for running the 1st gear test. Did you also try the test where you accelerate aggressively to around 2500 rpm and then shift normally? Did your rpms increase, hang, or drop immediately between shifts?