Ok, so I was at my dealer this morning, to replace the front struts. The Asst. Manager told me they didn't have to align the car after they replaced the strut.

Is he bullshi&&ing me? He also said something about an idler arm....but this is obviously rack and pinion!

Help!

 

The struts are an intergral part of the steering. Yes, you MUST re-align the car after your struts are worked on. The dealer should cover this under warranty. Call 1800-NISSAN1 and complain about it. Have them direct you to the regional rep. Once there complain to them...the dealership will fix the problem one way or another.

 

I dissagree. Unless the new struts are a different length or you are changing the springs, nothing in the alignment should change. This should be just a staight bolt-on the new struts and go. Unless I'm missing something here (and I am intimately aquainted with the front suspension of the 04 Max, having worked on mine many times), the dealer is correct and no alignment should be needed.

 

When you remove the struts you are bound to change the alignment. This is not a simple bolt on.

taken from-http://www.kyb.com/support/shocktypes.php
While many do-it-yourselfers can tackle changing shocks, replacing struts is a much more complex job requiring specialized equipment. In most cases, when struts are replaced, the car's front end must be aligned.

And I have had 3 different mechanics work on my older cars struts. Each time I had to go to sears to get the cars aligned.

Also, you will have to make sure the camber is correct-again this is not a simple bolt on!!!!!!!!

Shocks do not require alignment, even though it's a good idea to make sure the wheels are cambered correctly. Doing the job the right way you should align the car when done, but to each his own. The dealer should cover this work...it's under warranty.

 

You are obviously not a mechanic and know nothing about struts. The strut is held on by two big bolts at the bottom and 3 nuts at the top. THAT"S IT! Nothing is changed if you are bolting on a stock replacement strut. IT IS A SIMPLE BOLT ON!!

Just because you read it on a KYB website doesn't mean a lot. They are just covering their butts. And the "specialized equipment" they mention is a spring compresser. I made my own spring compresser years ago out of some scrap pipe and Ready Rod and it works just fine. THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.

I don't know what "chamber" is, but I do know what "camber" is. The question is, do you?

If it makes you feel better to have your front end aligned after strut replacement, then by all means, have it done. I say it's a waste of time and money and another opportunity for the alignment shop to beat up your nice shiny new wheels when they bolt on the alignment equipment.

 

Long story short. The dealership doesn't have to do squat, however going by the book they should check the alignment. If it's off they should align the car with no problem under warranty.

04RedOpMax-
1) Stop flaming
2) I never claimed to be a mechanic, just stating over the years of owning several vehicles what I've had to do when struts were replaced.
3) You are correct that there are five total bolts. Replacing struts is not a simple "bolt on" process because you have to take the coil spring off of the strut assembly (as you mentioned with the reference to specialized tools). The two bottom bolts attach to stabilizer bar which is part of the steering. This means that you can throw off the alignment of the vehicle.
4)If your alignment is off is it that a waste of money?

FYI-As stated above The service manual states that you must check the alignment of the vehicle when you adjust the struts or the stabilizer bar. See the picture below

Also, I have had the struts replaced twice now on the maxima. Each time the alignment was thrown off enough to make a noticable difference. It needed to be aligned 4 times the first time. Now I am taking it in this friday to have them align the car yet again because they replaced the struts. So depending on who installed the struts and how much things were moved around you may or may not need to have an alignment job, but regardless the dealership should check the alignment according to the service manual. Case closed, Flame on if you feel that I am wrong.

BTW Chamber was a typo on my part. thanks for pointing that out

Does Midas Lie too?
http://www.midas.com/products-services/steering.html

 

and you are

 

You have to align the car! If you were changing the shocks and you indext the bolts/strut you dont have too, but it would still be recomended.

 

I don't know what "flaming" is. I am merely trying to refute the bogus information that was posted as fact, by using the experience and knowledge that I have gained by WORKING on automobiles.

You are basing your argument on information you are getting from poeple that are in the busines of doing front end alignments (and profiting from them). Companies like Midas have made a good living from doing unneccesary front end alignments for gullible poeple like you guys, who obviuosly believe everything you see and hear. Did you ever think about getting a second opinion before you forked out your cash, maybe from somebody without a conflict of interest?

The only way you are going to win this argument, is to prove to me that by just replacing a stock strut, something changes. The two big bolts that fasten the strut to the spindle assembly are a close fit, with little or no "slop" and no adjustment. There is not anyway that these two bolts effect alignment. The same can be said for the upper three studs: No adjustment there either.

So, again I ask: What changes, what moves, what can get out of whack?
Until you can answer that, it is you who are

 

point and advantage: 04RedOpMax



....this may decide whether i consider getting the lifetime alignment from firestone. future mod adjustable shock and strut upgrades

how often for good maintanence sake do you suggest alignments? or maybe only when new tires are bought?

 

Thank you, NismoMax80: A voice of reason (or common sense) emerges.

I just realised something: I have owned and driven many cars in my lifetime (I am 51 years young). The only wheel alignment I have ever paid for was on my 04' Max, after I put the Eibach lowering springs on. I have a 1990 Maxima SE that has never had a front end alignment and it has 180,000 miles on it. I have a 1985 VW Jetta that has never had a front end alignment. I can't ever recall having a problem with handling or uneven tire wear because of an alignment problem. Maybe I have just been lucky?

I would recommend an alignment for only a few reasons:

Installed lowering springs- Any time you change the ride height of the car (or truck), the alignment will be effected.

The vehicle was in an accident- This is pretty obvious.

You suspect the alignment has changed from abnormal contact with a pothole, road debris or curb.

Even when you buy new tires you may not need an alignment. If the tires you are replacing wore evenly, your alignment is probably OK.

 

I am no mechanic but I do have an electrical engineering degree. I will do my best to explain how the struts are related to the steering, which ultimately will effect the alignment of the car which will ultimately prove 04RedOpMax why you have to align the car after replacing the struts-



There are several reasons why cars must be re-aligned when struts are replaced in a car. But first lets show everyone a picture of the suspension from the service manual so that we are on the same page everyone....:

Deep breath....

As you can see the struts and coil springs appear to be one piece when installed on the car. In order to remove the strut you have to loosen 5 bolts on the maxima. Three on top of the wheel well under those pretty beauty covers and two that attach to the wheel hub and steering knuckle assembly. This is why 04RedOpMax states this is a bolt on job, which it kind of is, but is not necessarily the case. Moving on... In order to replace the strut you need a special tool to remove the spring.*tension point 1* You then use the same coil spring and re-assemble the new strut and coil spring. *new amount of tension on tension point 1*

*tension point 2* Long story short you steering wheel in connected to an outer tie-rod. The tie-rod determines the toe of the tire as well as the physical connection between your steering wheel and the wheel hub and steering knuckle assembly. The tie-rod is what makes your wheels turn side to side.

The moment you remove the strut you have changed the tension that was at tension point 2. Because of this tension change you have just changed the alignment of the vehicle.

Couple the tension points with the following comments-you need to align the car after your struts were replaced.

1-Nothing in life is built exactly the same, this includes struts. Because each strut is going to be slightly different the tension that is created when new struts are installed on tension point 1 and 2 is no longer going to be exactly the same as it was when your car was aligned. This changes the alignment

2-99% of new cars built these days have independent front suspension. By having an independent suspension your car performs much better in cornering, braking, and accelerating. But because of this you have independent tension forces on each wheel. So, do the math (perse) and you can see there are several areas that can cause your car to be misaligned when you replace the struts. This too can change the alignment

3-The mechanic will most likely not take the time to adjust everything so that it's precise. Therefore all of those tension forces will be different then when you brought the car in which means what.....you guessed it- you will need to align your car.

04RedOpMax I hope this explains in better detail why you need to align your car when you remove the struts. BTW I never said anything about being owned. But I feel I did a good job proving my point. You will have a hard time proving me wrong with these arguments. Please feel free to enlighten me because you certainly appear to know more about struts then I do since you have worked on your own suspension.

Also to note as I have mentioned already- My maxima has needed to be re-aligned after my first set of struts were replaced under warranty. The steering wheel was visibly off center by 10-15 degrees. The dealership finally was able to get the alignment back to center after 4 tries. Now after replacing my struts again the steering wheel is off center again.

04RedOpMax, you say that the alignment shouldn't be off. But it has been both times in my maxima not to mention again my two other cars.

Finally, 04RedOpMax what do you define alignment to be? If you mean that the car pulls to one direction or another on its own-I have not had the problem after replacing struts; rather, the steering wheel has been off center EVERY TIME the struts have been replaced in all my cars. This qualifies as alignment in my book, no?

deep deep sigh

Some more thoughts after reading through more carefully...
If it's under warranty make em do the work!!!!!
You may think it's no big deal to ride on a mis-aligned car right? Well take into fact that the Toe will most likely be off and perhaps the camber too. This means that your tire isn't rolling on the ground the way it was designed to. This means you are putting extra wear and tear on your expensive tires. Now I know no one out here likes to replace ~$200/tire So the $80 for an alignment is worth every penny in the long run for the tires. As I said before-the work was done under warranty, so should the alignment because it is a direct result of the strut replacement, and don't let them tell you otherwise.

I agree that there are a lot of bad mechanics out there ripping people off. But when you replace struts you need an alignment...This is a fact..not fiction...and many sites out there prove my point. How does a strut company like KYB make money on alignments? They don't...so why would they care about it...for legal reasons...new struts are a direct cause of mis-alignment...That's all for now...this is a long enough post...

 

now that is a long, and detailed post.

 

Most of your adjustment are in Thoes two "Big bolts" . If you could take a look of these bolts or actualy turn them, you would see the movement of your wheel.

 

msoemax, your post is so wide, I can't read the right side of your rant, but I don't have to read it all. You have stooped to a ploy that's commonly used by poeple who don't know what they are talking about: If you can't dazzle em with brilliance, baffle em with bullshiznet.

Did you make up the part about "tension points" or did you get that from one of your electrical engineer buddies? That's a new one on me.

OK, lets get back to basics. I'm going to explain this one more time, so even an electrical engineer can understand it:

You remove the stock strut by taking out the two lower bolts and the 3 nuts on the top (You also have to un-bolt the anti-sway bar). Compress the spring with the spring compresser and remove the nut & bearing assembly from the top of the strut rod. Put the spring on the new strut and re-install the bearing assembly,tighten the nut and take off the spring compresser. Now you have the new strut with the old springs. The nut on the strut rod bottoms out in the the same place, the springs are the same, THE TENSION IS THE SAME. Nothing that effects alignment has changed. Now you can bolt the strut unit back on, 3 nuts on the top and two bolts on the bottom (Don't forget the anti-sway bar!).
Now we have replaced the original strut with an identical strut with the old springs and bolted it in with the same fasteners, in the same place. No "tension points" have changed. Nothing has been adjusted, because there is nothing to adjust. And get this (Are you electrical engineers keeping up?),
NOTHING HAS CHANGED. WHEEL ALIGNMENT HAS NOT BEEN CHANGED.

I don't know how to put it any simpler than that.

 

Dude, you have just proven that you know less than msoemax does about struts. There is NO ADJUSTMENT in two "Big Bolts. They pass though the strut and the spindle unit and "clamp" the two parts together. That is all. They do not turn. They are not eccentric and they do not "cam".

The next time you have one of your front wheels off, take a look at the strut. Turn the wheel and watch how it works. You can learn a lot by observing.

 

One question, did you install your ebach springs yourself? I have! I had to remove thoes two bolts! I'm not assuming this, I have done this! Have you? I figure you installed your y-pipe but I know you did'nt install your springs! Boy you can talk the talk, I know you dont walk the walk!

 

This could be a very interesting debate if we keep the sarcasm out of it and keep it civil. I'm interested in hearing the outcome and final recommendation on alignment or not.

DIY net says it's a good idea to have alignment checked after strut repalcement. But fall short of saying that it's absolutely necessary.

http://www.diynet.com/diy/ab_suspens...278111,00.html (scroll to the bottom)

Bob

 

04RedOpMax, If I am wrong about things please point out where my thought process is wrong to prove that you are correct. Don't just say I am wrong and bs'n. Prove to me why i am wrong.

Tension is obviously not the right term to be using, obviously the term was used to make a point. However, at these points that I mention there is a lot of potential energry. You obviously ignored my comment that no two things in this world are exactly the same. Because of that you will not have the same amount of force when you put the coil springs back onto the strut assembly. It will be very similar, but it will NOT BE THE SAME. You will not be able to replace the strut in exactly the same place either it will appear to be the same, but it's not because the probability of you putting something exactly where it was before is 0. It will be off. These slight differences account for why your wheel is off center.


Here is the simple argument which you never address-
Maxima had struts replaced-the steering wheel was off center because of that work. The car was aligned, the steering wheel was centered again-all good.
Again the Maxima had struts replaced-the steering wheel was off center again because of that. The car is going in to be aligned, and once they get it right the steering wheel will be centered again
My 1985 toyota needed all new struts. An independant mechanic did the work. The steering wheel was off center-it was centered before the work started. He tells me take it to sears because I can't do the necessary alignment job because he doesn't have the rack to do it on.

You get the point


Depending on who does the work one can avoid throwing the alignment off , but from observation I have had to re-align all my cars after the struts were replaced.

I don't feel I am BS'n anyone here. I did a good job proving my point. Prove to me that the struts take no load? That there is no force there holding your entire front end up. By removing the struts you are changing the force distribution throughout the whole car. When you replace the struts you redistribute the mass of the car back to the springs and struts. This distribution of force will change slightly. Your angles will have changed slightly. This area of the car allows for play in the installation. You cannot argue with pure math and physics. You are bound to change the angles of how the strut is installed slightly. This means the vector forces are different. Thus you have to align the car.

04RedOpMax, you never answered some of my questions. You use the same argument over and over. Answer some of my questions and come back to me proving that no forces ever change when you replace the strut. This is the only way to ensure that everything stays the same within the system.

I am done arguing my point. This will be my last respone to you 04RedOpMax. It's not worth the time to try to explain physics, geometry, and statistics to prove my point. DONE

 

Wow, you guys are arguing way too hard about a simple issue.

04RedOpMax, have you ever installed struts on a car yourself? If you have, you will notice there is a little bit of play in the bolts at the bottom. That is to say, the holes in the strut and the hub are a little bigger than the bolt itself. This is normal.

Since all the holes are just a little bigger than the bolts, when you install the bolts, you can wiggle the strut back and forth a little in relation to the hub before you tighten the nuts on the bolts.

This change in position of the strut realtive to the hub is a change in camber. Any change in camber results in a change in toe.

The chances of you being able to install a new strut in EXACTLY the same position as the old one are just about nil.

For this reason, alignment is required after installing struts.

If this still doesn't make sense to you, than arguing with you is hopeless.

 

Let's split the difference. There IS a possibility that you would need an alignment after the install...but it is NOT always the case. At the LEAST you should have the alignment CHECKED. If the car is out of alignment, then get the alignment fixed. If it isn't, then don't. I don't see how you can say 100% DEFINITELY you need/don't need an alignment after this work. You guys are pathetic arguing over something so stupid.

 

Donkey has spoken. guess u guys tied. this thread was getting overflowed with man-juice anyway. Has to be bad to get the Donkey Seal of Disapproval.

 

Looks like you agreed with one side.

And I guess both sides didn't read into the installation process on the document that says to check the alignment to see if it's in spec. That tells you if the alignment is out, do the alignment. It it's in spec, then don't (as Donk said).

 

I agree that you may not have to do an alignment after the work. But 04RedOpMax was making it seem as though it's pointless work when it's not. If you look at post six I said what look2me40 (donkey) stated 15 posts later.

I apologize for the heated debate, but that's what forums are for.

 

I would agree totally - if it's out (because the tech messed up something in the process of changing the struts) then align it and move on - if not - leave it alone and drive...

As far as 04RedOpMax's understanding of the front suspension on our cars...read here...http://forums.maxima.org/showpost.ph...2&postcount=14

 

First you ask a question and then you answer it for me. Yes, I did install the Eibach springs myself (Using a spring compresser that I fabricated myself), just like I have installed all the other mods on my car (CAI, UDP, RSB, FSTB, y-pipe, sub-woofer system, etc.) I also cross-drilled the rotors myself and made my own hub centric rings.

Check out my CarDomain site, I have documented everthing there:
http://www.cardomain.com/id/04redopmax

Yes, SStuffer, I can walk the walk!

 

I'm with 04RedOpMax on this one. Nothing changes in terms of the camber or steering. It is a true bolt-on replacement, therefor there is no need for an alignment.

 

OK, this is going nowhere. Some of the guys align & some dont. Lets move on life is too short.

 

This topic is like asking "should i balance my tires when I get new ones?" No, you don't have to balance them, but it makes a lot of sense to balance them so that you save the tread and so that the car handles well. People can make an educated choice. You never have to do anything as far as adjustments in your car. It just makes sense to do it so that it runs better and saves you lots of money down the line; It's called preventative maintenance.

 

I'm going to throw this out to the Forum in general:

When you are looking for advice on an automotive topic (Suspensions for instance), and you had a choice between talking to:

A) A twenty four year old "electrical engineer" armchair mechanic who has never picked up a wrench in his life and has had all the work done on his cars by other poeple,

OR

B) a Journeyman Machinist with 35+ years of "real life" wrenching experience, who has done his own work on his cars all his life (I could give you a resume, but the post would be even longer than msoemax's windy rants. See my CarDomain site for some perspective),

Who would you believe?

Yeah, I thought that would be your answer. I rest my case.

 

Before you go flaming me yet again get your facts straight. I work on my car as much as I can. When I don't have the tools, or the know how, I go to a mechanic and seek advice. I hate cheating mechanics/dealerships as much as the next guy.

Instead of flaming keep quiet.

I never claimed to be a mechanic nor a mechanical engineer who worked on projects like these in school and/or at work. I have sought out advice from other collegues at work who are mechanical engineers and they all agree with my coments. Again, the terms i used are not the correct ones, but I provide a pretty good explanation. I also provided pictures of the service manual and other websites to back my point up.

04RedOpMax has not backed up his points with any proof other than his experience. I don't contest your life work and experience. I envy the fact that you have the tools,time, and experience to do all this work. Most of us on the board would admit that.

I simply feel that you make this project seem like it's easy as 123 and nothing else has to be done afterwards. That is not the case. The original post was someone asking if the alignment should be done. If the car demonstrates that it is out of alignment then yes the dealer should do the alignment because it is a direct result of the struts being replaced, and why not get the work done for free while it's under waranty?

04RedOpMax obviously disagrees with my thoughts. He has every American right too. That's what makes this country great and this forum useful.

So 04RedOpMax...there is no need to make me out as the bad guy..I presented one side of the story as well as some information to back up my thoughts. I have learned to do this process because engineers are always asked to prove what they say. I can't simply say do it becuase I have done it before...I have to prove all the steps for the final outcome. That is what I did here. You obviously have taken this the wrong way. If you have a beef with me email me...the address is available to anyone.

 

Well, I'm a 26 year old mechanical engineer who has taken the suspension on and off my own car more times than I can count, done installs for several other ORG members and designed and sold custom suspension parts for Maximas and I still know you're wrong.

 

Age shouldn't have anything to do with it. Being older and more experience doesn't automatically mean that you're right and the other guy is wrong.

Bob

 

Buy 'em books, send them to school....I'll go with the one with the bloody knuckles. Doesen't matter if you're a 24 yoME or an 80 yo junkyard mechanic, experience counts.

Moot point. If your alignment is out after strut replacement, fix it. If not, don't.

 

oh no, not this again. why couldn't you let it r.i.p.?

 

well I called the dealership and Nissan to see about my replacement struts ETA and both told me they don't have an ETA. They are back ordered and have no idea when they are available but they did say that the redesigned struts are being ordered so I wait...
I also checked the part number ordered and was told at this point the old number will automatically be redirected to the new part number so all being replaced now on will be redesigned. I don't know if this was only to satisfy me but I thought that was a good sign...no more old struts.

 

Looks like BS to me. Worse part is that you have no way of knowing what they really put on the car.

 

msoemax I agree with you!!!! EVERY STRUT IS DIFFERENT just like people!>>> CHECK your aligment!!! Thats the way to go. And if you have to pay 49.99 for the adjustment its worth it! With the roads IN THE USA BUMPS POTHOLES just total sh-t Align her its your MAX04redopmax> You love your tires? you love your MAX? DO IT FOR HER! YOU feel SHE FEELS THE ROAD_____________!>

 

I've replaced struts and springs on my max. 04REDOPMAX, I agree with u about the alignment issues, no camber occurs when dealing with direct replacement. Struts are fabricated in mass quanity, so machines set to make them have a small design error between production of the struts, basically they are all the same. So going from one nissan strut to the same new nissan strut, alignment isn't needed. Now putting on a different coilover that has a lower overall height, will change the way the car sits, camber adjustments need to be made and an alignment is needed.

So the question is with the ones who favor the alignment, " The struts has a closed chamber with a certain pressure acted on it, I.E. the weight of the car, humps in the road, etc. So there is N amount of blows (compression) to the strut. Now the so called engineers that have taken materail science, they is an elasticity curve on materials. Now over time the casing on the strut will start to show stress due to the compresion of the strut. So then when ur strut is at its half life, its not going to be as resilinet as it was durning install. So then this constitutes for another wheel alignment?

All I know is that with the eibachs which changed the overall height of the car an alignment wasn't needed. Sounds funny but true. So using engineering input doesn't always work in every situation, being there in person does. A professor once told me engineering isn't science so you don't have to be exact!

 

Every manufacturing process has tolerances...ie each strut is slightly different. Also the likelihood of putting the new strut in the exact same position as the orig is pretty small. If you don't think that changing the strut mounting position makes a difference...put your car on an alignment rack and loosen the two lower bolts and watch what happens....you will be amazed.